[MTXMUGEN]

Originally Posted by MACI4LIFE

does that wire have shielding on it, then you epoxy it and bake it after that as well?

as for the layered windings. do you mean 13 on first layer, 12 on second then 12 on the 3rd layer to make 37?

keep up the good job. i am definately attempting this.

The wire is enamaled. I dont know what this wire is enamled with but its pretty tough stuff. most lower temp wires are enamled with a nylon based insulation where as higher temp wire tends to be polyester based. it really depends on what regulations the motor shops follow. as long as its rated for ~200C your fine.

Yes, the stator will be varnished and baked when I'm done. if yuo ahev good wire and wind tight enough you dont have to varnish it but its it allways a good idea. I'll be varnishing mine and baking it myself (just need to find my old toaster oven!) ill include that in the tutorial

yes, 13, 12, and 12. you allways count from the front of the stator. the back has the crossovers and the terminations.

THERE IS A FRONT AND BACKSIDE TO THEM even before you wind. the clip that screws into the backside of the stator. the hole goes all the way through but its only threaded on the one side.

I know i forget to say little things like this in the tutorial so PLEASE ask if you dont see something or if I went over something too quick.

[00blade]

when I got my bike the stator went in the first 1000 miles. Bought an aftermarket stator and it failed in about 1000 miles again. Although it was wound with 16ga (stock is 17) the three solder joints were not staggered and they melted together. RM Stators was good enough to send me a replacement, so while waiting for it to arrive I wound the original. The trouble was that I could only find 19ga. wire. So it only lasted about 4500 miles. If I can find some 16 or 17 ga. wire I will do it again. I had some painful blisters the first time so in the future I plan to break the winding part up over 6 evenings or so. A local auto electric shop sold me some spray to coat everything with.

[MACI4LIFE]

Originally Posted by 00blade

when I got my bike the stator went in the first 1000 miles. Bought an aftermarket stator and it failed in about 1000 miles again. Although it was wound with 16ga (stock is 17) the three solder joints were not staggered and they melted together. RM Stators was good enough to send me a replacement, so while waiting for it to arrive I wound the original. The trouble was that I could only find 19ga. wire. So it only lasted about 4500 miles. If I can find some 16 or 17 ga. wire I will do it again. I had some painful blisters the first time so in the future I plan to break the winding part up over 6 evenings or so. A local auto electric shop sold me some spray to coat everything with.

THATS WHO I BOUGHT MY STATOR FROM.

The second went on me just now. thats the one i mentioned earlier how it was already getting continuity right after the install, 5 minutes after running ( it may have been showing continuity right from the start but i didn't check ). The person called me yesterday (mike ) but i missed the call. I'll see what he says today.

[MACI4LIFE]

Originally Posted by MTXMUGEN

The wire is enamaled. I dont know what this wire is enamled with but its pretty tough stuff. most lower temp wires are enamled with a nylon based insulation where as higher temp wire tends to be polyester based. it really depends on what regulations the motor shops follow. as long as its rated for ~200C your fine.

Yes, the stator will be varnished and baked when I'm done. if yuo ahev good wire and wind tight enough you dont have to varnish it but its it allways a good idea. I'll be varnishing mine and baking it myself (just need to find my old toaster oven!) ill include that in the tutorial

yes, 13, 12, and 12. you allways count from the front of the stator. the back has the crossovers and the terminations.

THERE IS A FRONT AND BACKSIDE TO THEM even before you wind. the clip that screws into the backside of the stator. the hole goes all the way through but its only threaded on the one side.

I know i forget to say little things like this in the tutorial so PLEASE ask if you dont see something or if I went over something too quick.

so the enamel or polyester coating on the wire is flexible like the regular shielding on normal wires. sorry for the stupid questions.

BTW, how to you go from the solid wire to be wound, to the stranded wire that leaves the stator? i'd assume that you just solder it together?

[MTXMUGEN]

Originally Posted by MACI4LIFE

so the enamel or polyester coating on the wire is flexible like the regular shielding on normal wires. sorry for the stupid questions.

BTW, how to you go from the solid wire to be wound, to the stranded wire that leaves the stator? i'd assume that you just solder it together?

yes, the enamel is flexable. it won't hold up to as much flexing as a regilar wire would though.
there are no stupid questions. how would you learn if you don't ask?

the next post that ill be writing here in a few will go over winding, repairing cracked insulation on the staotr and terminating thw winds.

[MACI4LIFE]

Originally Posted by MTXMUGEN

yes, the enamel is flexable. it won't hold up to as much flexing as a regilar wire would though.
there are no stupid questions. how would you learn if you don't ask?

the next post that ill be writing here in a few will go over winding, repairing cracked insulation on the staotr and terminating thw winds.

i wish i had more rep to give you.

This type of info is invaluable to a lot of us DIY'ers.

I'm getting a refund on the stator that i bought. they blame my bike, i blame their shotty workmanship.

[MACI4LIFE]

here's pics of the 1st stator. The tech admitted that he shouldn't have used the metal clamp to hold the wires in place ( as you can see it burnt out the wires, and probably some of the poles.

picture 2 is the part that has me confused. what it is is wires twisted together and tucked in between 2 poles. the tech said it was the beginning of the wire, and he did that so the stator isn't as high yield? I mentioned that the oem and one other aftermarket stator that i had previously never had that and assumed that the beginning and end met and were tied together then continued out of the stator to make one of the 3 phases coming out of the stator. He said thats a delta wound stator and it's high yield at 500watts Can you enlighten us on that. I personally call bullshit and think thats one of the main reasons the stators are crapping out.

picture 3 shows how long of a run the wires coming out of the stator have to go if have to follow the wire direction from the stator. i have to pretty much have the wires run underneath the stator for half the stator circumference before it goes out of the stator. Again, the oem and other one's wires exited the stator at pretty much the proper area so the run was short, up to the grommet.

[00blade]

if you have three wires wound together and three single conductors soldered onto the stranded wire coming out of the cover then you have a "Y" wound stator. If on the other hand you have double wires soldered to each stranded wire then you have a delta wound stator. Both designs will work, but I prefer the delta winding method for a number of reasons.

[MACI4LIFE]

Originally Posted by 00blade

if you have three wires wound together and three single conductors soldered onto the stranded wire coming out of the cover then you have a "Y" wound stator. If on the other hand you have double wires soldered to each stranded wire then you have a delta wound stator. Both designs will work, but I prefer the delta winding method for a number of reasons.

i don't know what he had, but he did say it wasn't delta. you bought the rmstator as well so i'd assume yours looks the same as well?

[MTXMUGEN]

Originally Posted by 00blade

if you have three wires wound together and three single conductors soldered onto the stranded wire coming out of the cover then you have a "Y" wound stator. If on the other hand you have double wires soldered to each stranded wire then you have a delta wound stator. Both designs will work, but I prefer the delta winding method for a number of reasons.

Sorry for not havnig the other post up yet. i lost internet because of a storm here. 00blade is correct, your stator is terminated as a wye. when it comes to motors, i prefer a wye termination every time. heres what it does for a motor

-1.8 times faster per turn, more wire in parallel or a larger single strand with less turns usually.
- less circulating currents due to the center termination point.
-better motor at speed, usually runs smoother
-slightly more effecient
-allows for a wider range of winding patterns

again this is for a motor terminated as a wye. heres the befefits to a delta

-more definable wave form, easoer on the speed controllers since it has a a better firing trigger.
-easier to mass produce
-smoother than a wye at low RPM
-wider range of k/v options
-no massive center termination. sometimes i dont have room for them on some motors.
-able to still work with a damaged phase

in sure some of this transferrs over to stators but i'm not 100% sure. from the looks of it they stamp their own laminations. The lams look to be thinner then the stock ones which helps effeciency but they didnt bother to use the special lams on the ends to give iot that lip above and below like my stock one has. that added material to the hammerhead will clean up the magnetic reactions a little bit making it a little more effecient. that lam on the stock one is also slightly undersized on the winding surface giving it more of a rounded shave for the turns to rest on. that makes it harder to cut through and short to ground. take away those end lams and use what appears to be thin powdercoating and you will get those shorts to ground.

"high yeild" sounds like another term for high effeciency. with the thicker wire, use of a wye termination, and thinner lams it wouldent be surprised if it is more effecient then the delta terminated, thick lamination stock stator. since i have no way of testing its power output i really can't say one is better then the other. High yeild at 500 watts... I think they are trying to say it will still put out power at 500 watts without blowing up. 500 watts is 30-37 amps depeniong on how fast the mtor is turning. the stock stator i was told can do 45 amps. in the lab this may be plausable but in the engine i doubt it. the resistance of the wire increases with heat so you have to derate its capacity. so basically a 35 amp stator can really only put out amps mid to high 20's

[bladeracer]

Originally Posted by MTXMUGEN

"high yeild" sounds like another term for high effeciency. with the thicker wire, use of a wye termination, and thinner lams it wouldent be surprised if it is more effecient then the delta terminated, thick lamination stock stator. since i have no way of testing its power output i really can't say one is better then the other. High yeild at 500 watts... I think they are trying to say it will still put out power at 500 watts without blowing up. 500 watts is 30-37 amps depeniong on how fast the mtor is turning. the stock stator i was told can do 45 amps. in the lab this may be plausable but in the engine i doubt it. the resistance of the wire increases with heat so you have to derate its capacity. so basically a 35 amp stator can really only put out amps mid to high 20's

Still loving the thread but my brain is starting to hurt :-)

[MTXMUGEN]

since my stator only shorted on two poles, i really didn't have much damage done to the powdercoating. on most simple shorts like this, the heat from the short will burn the powdercoating and it will turn to a loose, gritty carbon. this will have to be removed to prevent your newly wound stator from shorting out aswell. theres two ways you can fix this. if the majority of the PC is good thern you can patch it with nomex or some other high temp paper insulation. if your PC is too far gone i would advise you invest in a cheap toaster oven and remove what you can with a dremmel and repowder coat it.

mine wasnt that bad, the pic is dar but you can see theres a fair amount of bare metal. i removed what i could with a sharpened screwdriver
http://i71.photobucket.com/albums/i1...N/P1010029.jpg

Thios is nomex, basically a thick version of tyvek taper with some sort of plastic core.
http://i71.photobucket.com/albums/i1...N/P1010030.jpg

I cut a few small pieces of the nomex to shape with a razor and then fit them inplace
http://i71.photobucket.com/albums/i1...N/P1010032.jpg

I removed the pieces and started winding that first layer. to get that first turn without too much effort you can prebend itthen just slide it into place.
http://i71.photobucket.com/albums/i1...N/P1010033.jpg
I then pinch it against the tooth with glass pliers. as you can see in the pic, there basically a old set of needle nose pliers that were ground and polished smooth
http://i71.photobucket.com/albums/i1...N/P1010034.jpg

an this is the first layer. due to the the repair i was only able to get 12 turns before the second layer. this wont affect it too much. you can also see the nomex sticking outinfront of the lip.
http://i71.photobucket.com/albums/i1...N/P1010035.jpg

you will want to get each turn as close to the previous one as possible and as close to the tooth as pssible. you can slide the wire down and compact the firt layer with glass pliers and a dulled plat head screw driver. to get the wire closer to the tooth you simply give then a squeeze with the glass pliers on the sides. to compress the layer tp ger more turns in just put the screw driver between the wire and the3 lip and twist. BE CAREFUL not to do either too hard so you dont gouge your wire. it is possible to short it going that and if you gouge it too much you will have to start over.

once you get all your turns in you will have to cross over. I put all my crossovers on the back side since theres ample room and theres a less chance of them getting hit by the rotor. your 3rd layer will end at the outside of the tooth so you can eiter com straight accross and tie it down or just simoply run the akward andle to the inside for the last 1/2 turn and make your cross. you can see the cross overs in this pic
http://i71.photobucket.com/albums/i1...N/P1010028.jpg

this is what it looks like on the backside with 2 phases done
http://i71.photobucket.com/albums/i1...N/P1010037.jpg

[MTXMUGEN]

Originally Posted by MACI4LIFE

i wish i had more rep to give you.

This type of info is invaluable to a lot of us DIY'ers.

I'm getting a refund on the stator that i bought. they blame my bike, i blame their shotty workmanship.

Thanks for the Rep! if this tutorial helps at least one other person then ill be happy. i know what its like to feel forced to spend money that i don't want to spend or have , which is why I do (and most do) a lot of my own work. hopefully this helps you save a few bucks

I love riding and i like working on my bike. i absolutely hate the cost aspect of it being that I'm a college student that is only employed 3 months out of the year (hopeflully that will change with a possible co-op). needless to say i try to do things as inexpensively as possible and that usually means doing things myself. for example, my bike was covered in fur when i bought it and had a few cracks in the plastics aswell. insted of buying all new ones, i came up with my own formula of adheisive remover which turned out to be really effective (3 parts laquer thinner to one part acetone) and removed the fur and spray adheisive. glassed the backside of the cracks and glazed the fronts, then primed, painted and clear coated the plasics. the lazer blue paintjob cost me $30 including the paint itself, reducer, activator, clear coat, laquer thinner/acetone, and sand paper.

I completely redid my 90 FZR. painted the frame, plastics, etched the engine block, fork rebuild, painte the plastics and even some minor engine work.

heres what my blade looked like about a month ago. since then I painted the front fender and tail, modified and mounted mirrors from a 98 on it, and finished polishing the frame. the mids are sill waiting to be painted.
http://i71.photobucket.com/albums/i1...P1010015-1.jpg

my '90 FZR600R. it was bought as a salvage bike. I checked the frame and it was straight and bought it for $500 running. new fork and a complete rebuild later...
RC Groups - View Single Post - NCEF motorcycle thread
the far right pic is what the bike looked like when i bought it. i've had a few offers for $2500 but nothing serious yet

[MACI4LIFE]

holy ****. are you studying at MIT or something? your knowledge of these things amazes me although like racer said, the brain is starting to hurt.

[MACI4LIFE]

i too try to do a lot of the work myself. I for one like to work and learn about the bike, and also i think i can do just as good work for all of the minor things on the bike minus any engine overhaul ( which i could probably do myself as well). there is so much information out there for us to be able to do the work ourselves that unless you have no time to work on it, you can do a lot yourself and not make it as expensive a hobby as it could be.

[MTXMUGEN]

Originally Posted by MACI4LIFE

I for one like to work and learn about the bike, and also i think i can do just as good work for all of the minor things on the bike minus any engine overhaul ( which i could probably do myself as well). there is so much information out there for us to be able to do the work ourselves that unless you have no time to work on it, you can do a lot yourself and not make it as expensive a hobby as it could be.

learning about the bike is overlooked by many, to me its one of the more important aspects of riding. i know people that don't even know the known problems for their bike and get all bent out of shape when it finally strikes their bike. It's nice to see there's still some people that do their own work.

[MTXMUGEN]

Originally Posted by MACI4LIFE

holy ****. are you studying at MIT or something? your knowledge of these things amazes me although like racer said, the brain is starting to hurt.

I'm no one special, just your average college student at The University of Akron. I was a mechanical engineering major until i found out how math involved it really was and changed my major to chemical engineering (more conceptual and more fun). Thanks for the compliments though

[bladeracer]

Originally Posted by MTXMUGEN

learning about the bike is overlooked by many, to me its one of the more important aspects of riding. i know people that don't even know the known problems for their bike and get all bent out of shape when it finally strikes their bike. It's nice to see there's still some people that do their own work.

I do almost everything myself.
Electrics have always been my biggest problem but I'm slowly making progress in that direction finally :-)
I don't machine heads, bore cylinders or modify cranks or gears because I don't have a big enough mill and don't really do enough of that stuff to warrant the expense of anything bigger.

[MTXMUGEN]

I'll post pics of the completed stator tomorrow aswell as how to terminate the winds and placement. the stator is in the bike right now, i had it out on the road yesterday and all appears to be working as it should.

after the post on the final phase and termination ill go over a simple voltage peak filter that you can add to the stator to help reduce its affect on the ignition system. then ill go over other windig patterns and more theory, varnishing process, an then whatever we want to go over from thre.

[MACI4LIFE]

I have cousins living in your neighbourhood. They're in Canton.

Originally Posted by MTXMUGEN

I'm no one special, just your average college student at The University of Akron. I was a mechanical engineering major until i found out how math involved it really was and changed my major to chemical engineering (more conceptual and more fun). Thanks for the compliments though

[MACI4LIFE]

Very impressive. Btw, what was the vac coming off the stator for you? And what vdc did you have at the battery at idle? I was getting 14.3 dc at the battery. I think that's a tiny bit low. No matter I'm changing all parts and go from there. Once the bikes working then I'll tackle the stator rewind.

Originally Posted by MTXMUGEN

I'll post pics of the completed stator tomorrow aswell as how to terminate the winds and placement. the stator is in the bike right now, i had it out on the road yesterday and all appears to be working as it should.

after the post on the final phase and termination ill go over a simple voltage peak filter that you can add to the stator to help reduce its affect on the ignition system. then ill go over other windig patterns and more theory, varnishing process, an then whatever we want to go over from thre.

[MTXMUGEN]

Originally Posted by MACI4LIFE

Very impressive. Btw, what was the vac coming off the stator for you? And what vdc did you have at the battery at idle? I was getting 14.3 dc at the battery. I think that's a tiny bit low. No matter I'm changing all parts and go from there. Once the bikes working then I'll tackle the stator rewind.

I actually have yet to check that. my voltmeter disappeared right after i tested the stator before i rewound it. i had to check for phase-ground continuity with a battery and lightbulb. no shorts to ground.

I know the v/k value is about right. with the bike in my dark garage, i can see the changes in voltage in the headlignt out put. its brightest at 2.5-3k RPM then starts to slightly dim as the voltage regulator kicks in. I only go to about 4k RPM as not to damage the engine by revving under no load. hopefully i can find my voltmeter so i can post up some real test data.

I ended up wet sanding/buffing my tank and replacing the thermostat today so i did not get a chance to take pic of the completed stator. ill try again tomorrow.

[bladeracer]

Originally Posted by MTXMUGEN

I only go to about 4k RPM as not to damage the engine by revving under no load.

You won't damage it, although I don't like hearing the rev limiter in neutral.
If for some reason you need to rev the engine right up top you need to push it up there slowly.
If you hit it too hard the revs will keep rising well past the limiter and then you risk bending or breaking things.
And let the engine settle to idle before turning it off. Never give it a whack of fuel and then kill it.

[MTXMUGEN]

Originally Posted by bladeracer

You won't damage it, although I don't like hearing the rev limiter in neutral.
If for some reason you need to rev the engine right up top you need to push it up there slowly.
If you hit it too hard the revs will keep rising well past the limiter and then you risk bending or breaking things.
And let the engine settle to idle before turning it off. Never give it a whack of fuel and then kill it.

Good to know. thanks

[MTXMUGEN]

Sorry for the lack of attention to this thread lately, ive been busy with work and im going through the process of switching jobs and my major. the time i have to work on the bike I usually spend riding it, its kinda like my treat after a days work.

I spoke to my friend, The EE who tought me how to wind in the first place. he gave me some interesting information about optimizing these things...

00blade and MACI4LIFE, your stators are wound with 16 AWG and terminated as a wye correct? from what my friend said, it isnt surprising that you two keep blowing your stator. for the motor versons, if certain motors are wound as a delta they will get a circulating current running through them. these currents cause all sorts of nasty things and are what usually blow the speed controllers and even the motors themselves. on a charging statr like these, the wye counterpart is what has the circuilating current problem. that could be why they just dont last in your machines. i was also told the difference between 16 and 18 guage wire is negligable for this use. it wont make a measurable difference.

whichever of you unwind your stator first, let me know ho many turns per pole it is. ill run the conversion for you and let you know how many turns you need to use a delta termination. that is your willing to stray from the stock.

i was also told that even if you forget a few turns or add some on a pole it wont make much of a difference. this sounds too good to be true but i thought i would relay it anyway.

ill try to snap a few pics tomorrow of the stator and the peak filter. im curious to see how my stator is holding up. especially since its not varnished yet

[bladeracer]

Originally Posted by MTXMUGEN

00blade and MACI4LIFE, your stators are wound with 16 AWG and terminated as a wye correct? from what my friend said, it isnt surprising that you two keep blowing your stator. for the motor versons, if certain motors are wound as a delta they will get a circulating current running through them. these currents cause all sorts of nasty things and are what usually blow the speed controllers and even the motors themselves. on a charging statr like these, the wye counterpart is what has the circuilating current problem. that could be why they just dont last in your machines. i was also told the difference between 16 and 18 guage wire is negligable for this use. it wont make a measurable difference.

If this is the case Honda deserves a swift kick in the arse.

[MTXMUGEN]

Originally Posted by bladeracer

If this is the case Honda deserves a swift kick in the arse.

RM stator deserves the swift kick. both of them are running "aftermarket" RM stators. my stator was a stock honda part. most stators and motors are terminated delta, its just easier to mass produce. I'm sure RM has some sort of reason for why they make their stators the way they do but that reason escapes me

the reason why i wind my motors Wye is because of the patterns themselves. parallel DLRK (AabBCc...), progressive(AaABbBCcC) parallel sequencial(ABC... 1 wire per pole) all must be terminated as a wye or they run like crap/blow up. those are specialty winds that i would no use on a stator. imbalanced I would (AaBbCc...)

[MTXMUGEN]

Sorry for the lack of updates on my project here. I've been in the process of switching jobs and havent had much time to spare. anyway, the stator is charging perfectly. i now have about 1500 miles on it since the last post here. i haven't even varnished it yet and it looks no different then when i first put it in the bike.

ill post how to varnish whenever i get the chance, hopefully pretty soon