If I were an Aussie...

nomad · 09-07-2004, 6:08 PM

... where would I want to live?

I had done some theoretical research a while back and decided I want to live in Australia. I had roughly planned on getting the wheels in motion between 2 and 4 years from now, however opportunity has knocked... I'll get to that in a minute. At any rate, from what I hear, Brisbane meets my requirements on paper better than the other places but being a flexible guy, and since opportunity has knocked else where, I want to hear your thoughts on the places mentioned above. Feel free to toss in your other advice!

I want to build a house on the coast, near a medium sized city (300,000 - 1,500,000 people). I want to be close enough to the natural world so I can pick up and go camping during my weekends and I want to live in relative safety (read "low crimerate"). I can't stand traffic but I need a civic center that is capable of supporting an IT lifestyle/career. I love Canada but the climate is pissing me off and I want some place warm/moderate.

Keeping that in mind, here are my thoughts... kick me back in line if I'm off base.
Brisbane; warm, hot even, this is good. A good sized, young city... Is there any tech work here?!
Sydney; similar to Toronto. Good climate. But is it too big/congested? Can you live a life without traffic jams, smog and "city-ness"?
Canberra; seems to be a little on the small side for me, also, maybe not too warm and not near the coast... What does it have going for it? Money from taxes and a potential job for me... anything else??
Melbourne. Climate ok and near the coast but seems to be an established center where finding ocean-side property to build on might put me out of commuting range... Is it polluted? The city seems to be much larger than I had desired but opportunity knocks in Melbourne. Is it worth moving there?

Any other recommendations?
Your first-hand input/advice/suggestions are valued as I don't have much to base this life altering decision on.

Cheers.

nomad · 09-07-2004, 6:10 PM

p.s.
I forgot to mention... I have a good chance at being hired in Melbourne or Canberra while I have no prospects in Sydney or Brisbane. My line of work is mostly travel anyway... would it be possible to live in Sydney and commute (plane) to Melbourne? That's fairly common-place for IT professionals around here but I don't know if I could suggest that to a potential employer without being laughed at...

colryn · 09-07-2004, 6:50 PM

don't go to Melbourne. We just got hit with a hurricane.......

Oops, wrong country. Sorry, I thought you were talking about Melbourne, Florida, a sister city to your Melbourne, AU

Sorry, can't help you with what places in Australia. I havn't been there. But if you would like to fly me there and do some scouting around for you, I would delighted to do this for a orger.

BTW: I voted for Melbourne just because I would not have to change the city of where I live.

Cowboy1600 · 09-07-2004, 7:46 PM

Wouldnt piss on Sydney to put out a fire, too dirty and unfriendly. Brisvegas is a nice place, but a little too slow and bumkinish. Adelaide, Canberra, Perth, Darwin and Hobart....pfffft....no thanks....

Melbourne is THE place to be if you want a capital city. Ive lived in Brisbane, and been to Sydney quite a few times (and if I never go back it'll be too soon) but think Melbourne is the best mix of everything. Its been voted the worlds most liveable city christ knows how many time over the past decade, has friendly people, big city thats only an hour from nowhere (if you feel the need to get away), has some of the best biking roads on earth (great ocean road, black spur, etc etc). The weather isnt for everyone, although its losing the habit of 4 seasons in one day. I find that the weather is becomming more seasonal (bloody cold in winter, bloody hot in summer, spring is absolutely perfect, autumn is miserable).

Ive lived up and down the east coast and feel that Melbourne is definately the best place.

As far as work goes, there is a lot of everything in Melbourne. I know quite a few people in Info Tech (work for a telco) and there is a ton of that work in Melbourne. Melbourne is the fashion capital, sport capital (hey, we have the motoGP, the SBK and the F1), cafe central, multicultural hub and bike capital of Australia. We have beaches (torquay, BELLS, ocean grove), country (grampians, halls gap, crap this list could go on forever), the equal greatest race track on earth, Phillip Island (yes, equal with Mt Panorama, ill give Sydney (altho its in Bathurst, a while from Sydney) that one). Combine the prolific use of "safety cameras" with the quickly shrinking underworld and Melbourne is also a very safe place to live

(ok, that was tongue in cheek).

Seriously, Melbourne is the place to be

nomad · 09-07-2004, 7:54 PM

Excellent. That makes me feel much better about Melbourne!

Now... your comments on Brisbane... BrisVegas? Bumpkinish? Sounds conflicting. Can you tell me a little more about it?

RPinOZ · 09-07-2004, 8:01 PM

You may find Brisbane a little humid after Toronto. It can get pretty oppressive there in the summer. But it is a great lifestyle I hear. Sydney and Melbourne have all that you would expect in terms of culture and night/social life with Sydney somehow feeling just that little bit "faster". Daily commuting from Sydney to Melbourne is just about unheard of. It is around a one hour flight but the airports are not close to the city centres so you could probably add another 1.5 to 2 hours each way making a total of around 5-6 hours travelling time per day. And the plane fares would be prohibitive. Perhaps if you had your own chopper... but gas isn't as cheap as in the US. Not sure about how it compares to Canada. We pay ~ $1.05 per litre for regular.

In Melbourne, ocean side real estate, if you're talking about surf etc, is a long way out of town. Port Phillip Bay which is Melbourne's seaside is OK for sailing and sailboarding I guess but has no waves to speak of. Sydney is better in that regard with some fanstastic surf beaches close at hand.

While Canberra might appear to be a long way from the coast it is only a (not too illegal) 90 minutes away on the bike and less than 2 hours by car. It is also only about 2 hours from the snow and 2.5 hours from Sydney. It is a very picturesque city and the only downside AFAIC is that it doesn't have as much happening at night. The Canberra climate is very seasonally distinct and while we get cold nights in winter (sometimes down to -8 or so) the winter days are usually sunny and max in the 10 to 15 deg range. Autumn and spring are stunning and summer days can get hot (mid 30s) but rarely humid. And the local twisties are only 15 minutes from town. We have some fantastic riding roads in the Southern Tablelands and Snowy Mountains. Another advantage of Canberra is the over engineered road system which makes commuting pretty stress free and quick. Year round commuting by bike or even cycle is pretty common. We have a good cyclepath network too.

And BTW not all of us are fat cats

but being and administrative centre there is plenty of IT work which is what I do for a University.

Any more questions, feel free

nomad · 09-07-2004, 8:15 PM

Quote:

Originally Posted by RPinOZ

You may find Brisbane a little humid after Toronto. It can get pretty oppressive there in the summer. But it is a great lifestyle I hear. Sydney and Melbourne have all that you would expect in terms of culture and night/social life with Sydney somehow feeling just that little bit "faster". Daily commuting from Sydney to Melbourne is just about unheard of. It is around a one hour flight but the airports are not close to the city centres so you could probably add another 1.5 to 2 hours each way making a total of around 5-6 hours travelling time per day. And the plane fares would be prohibitive. Perhaps if you had your own chopper... but gas isn't as cheap as in the US. Not sure about how it compares to Canada. We pay ~ $1.05 per litre for regular.

When I said commuting... I meant, up here we are far from everything so work flies me to Boston or flies me to Montreal or flies me to Ottawa for the weeks when I must work on-site. Not a daily thing but about 1/3 of my time is spent on business travel.

As for gas in the U.S.

Grrr... I'm a proud Canadian. Gas here is $0.77 - $0.85/litre here. Hmmm... what is the Exchange rate. I suppose I should know that...

Quote:

Originally Posted by RPinOZ

In Melbourne, ocean side real estate, if you're talking about surf etc, is a long way out of town. Port Phillip Bay which is Melbourne's seaside is OK for sailing and sailboarding I guess but has no waves to speak of. Sydney is better in that regard with some fanstastic surf beaches close at hand.

While Canberra might appear to be a long way from the coast it is only a (not too illegal) 90 minutes away on the bike and less than 2 hours by car. It is also only about 2 hours from the snow and 2.5 hours from Sydney. It is a very picturesque city and the only downside AFAIC is that it doesn't have as much happening at night. The Canberra climate is very seasonally distinct and while we get cold nights in winter (sometimes down to -8 or so) the winter days are usually sunny and max in the 10 to 15 deg range. Autumn and spring are stunning and summer days can get hot (mid 30s) but rarely humid. And the local twisties are only 15 minutes from town. We have some fantastic riding roads in the Southern Tablelands and Snowy Mountains. Another advantage of Canberra is the over engineered road system which makes commuting pretty stress free and quick. Year round commuting by bike or even cycle is pretty common. We have a good cyclepath network too.

And BTW not all of us are fat cats

but being and administrative centre there is plenty of IT work which is what I do for a University.

Any more questions, feel free

heh, sorry, was kidding about the "fat cats". I heard someone call it that and it reminds me of our capital.

Canberra sounds nice and very similar to here... we get somewhat colder -40c on days so -8 isn't really a big deal. However... part of my problem is the climate.

You make Canberra sound attractive too... I really, REALLY want to live on the coast. Someone asked me, "If you could live anywhere in the world, where would it be?" I had to think about it but really, if I could only live one place for the rest of my days, would be on the beach. I don't need the big city life, I just need some ocean waves, a sunset and the windows open.

Now... that brings up your point about ocean side real-estate being a long way away. Hmph. That's not good. I want a quiet place... no need to surf, just a smooth bay or quiet stretch of non-populated beach.

Bacchus · 09-07-2004, 9:00 PM

You left out my two first choices:

1) Darwin, 'cause you get to experience going "troppo", a very pleasant experience I've been told.

Actually I loved Darwin and the surrounding areas because I love the tropics, rainforest, etc.

2) Perth, baby! I was in awe of the natural beauty around Perth and environs to the south. Awesome! You get south of Perth and experience beautiful wine country and towering forests. Along the southwesternmost shoreline, and you will experience beaches like you've never imagined. I'm thinking Esperance was one of those places.

RPinOZ · 09-07-2004, 9:22 PM

Quote:

Originally Posted by nomad

Now... that brings up your point about ocean side real-estate being a long way away. Hmph. That's not good. I want a quiet place... no need to surf, just a smooth bay or quiet stretch of non-populated beach.

Unpopulated is pretty hard to find near the big cities but we don't get the cowds like they do in Europe except maybe on some of Sydney's inner city beaches in summer. You can find some deserted beaches but not near any big cities. You'd have to drive 3 or 4 hours from Sydney for that. Probably similar in Melbourne I would guess. More and more people are building holiday houses near the beach so there is a real estate price wave which has been radiating out from the urban centres for quite a few years now. On our nearest coast prices have at least doubled in the last 5 years.

As Bacci says Perth is a great place to live, I lived there for 6 months in the 70s, but you can feel a bit cut off from the rest of the world sometimes. I know IT people who have got work over there.

RPinOZ · 09-07-2004, 9:30 PM

Hey Nomad, if your circs permit I'd suggest an extended holiday cruising around Oz. You'd get a feel for what the various regions are like and you'd have a great time. Aussies are mostly pretty easy going and friendly and our wines are really good

nomad · 09-07-2004, 11:18 PM

I was introduced to Aussie wines a little over a year ago... since then, I have cruised the Aussie wine selection some. Usually in the $12cad/$13.45aus/$8usd range and am quite happy with Wyndeham Estates (bin222 and bin555 seem to be the selections I remember really enjoying)... any other suggestions?

ok... I digress.

I would love to take an extended holiday. Cash, until next year, is somewhat strapped (just bought a condo, just paid off the bike and still have not recovered money owed to me from a lawsuit) so if I wait, I'll have to pull another job opportunity out of my bum.

If I was sitting on the fence before, I think you guys tipped my scales to 100% "go for it". I will be brushing up my resume and letting my boss know tomorrow... then apply on Wednesday. We may be neighbours sooner than you think. haha, probably just jinxed my chances right there.

Now... what about work expectations? Here in Canada, white collar jobs come with a pretty standard 3wks vacation/year and a standards benefit package. What about there? How do the vacations/holidays stack up to here? I hear Europe gets many weeks (7 weeks in France!) vacation per year and I know in Trinidad they have so many holidays and vacations the schoo year has to start at end of August and end beginning of July to fit in the proper days!

Guys... I love details, keep 'em coming. Fuel the fire.

RPinOZ · 09-07-2004, 11:52 PM

Quote:

Originally Posted by nomad

I was introduced to Aussie wines a little over a year ago... since then, I have cruised the Aussie wine selection some. Usually in the $12cad/$13.45aus/$8usd range and am quite happy with Wyndeham Estates (bin222 and bin555 seem to be the selections I remember really enjoying)... any other suggestions?

In that price bracket Hardy's Oomoo Shiraz, Ingoldby Cabernet Sauvignon and their Shiraz just to name 3. Plus any Penfolds wine you care to name. There are more good ones than you can poke a stick at.

Quote:

Originally Posted by nomad

Now... what about work expectations? Here in Canada, white collar jobs come with a pretty standard 3wks vacation/year and a standards benefit package. What about there? How do the vacations/holidays stack up to here? D

Until recently I was a contractor which means, as I'm sure you know, that you work as many hours as the client will allow. I'm now a permanent and our Uni may not be typical but I get 20 days vacation leave, 20 days sick/special leave (eg to look after sick child), the days between Xmas and new year and of course all public holidays. Also we work a 7 hour day. Unlike most employers the Uni doesn't offer flex time. But they do contribute 17% superannuation on top of my salary.

I think there are many different packages due to the fact that Australia has embraced enterprise bargaining and unions have negotiated specific awards with various employers.

Troll · 09-08-2004, 1:57 AM

Perth is a definate plus as far as lifestyle goes! It is safe, traffic is laughable - very little in the way of congestion. And the beaches are pretty much all perfect.

Like Baccy says the Wineries (Margaret River/Yallingup/Swan valley etc) are only 50 minutes to 2 hours away. (Thats where I'm off to tomorrow for 4 days holiday!!! ) :

:

The weather is great year round. In Winter, the coldest it gets is about 2C overnight. Days are still about 15-20C Summer can get much warmer, average of about 32-38C during the day, sometimes it will get to 43C for a week!

The only major downside is the lack of 'really good' roads for riding and only one track (Barbagallo). Melbourne has definately got us beat there, Sydney, too has some excellent roads.

I reckon you should go on holidays and do an .org tour of oz! visit each state and get each orger to give you a guided tour!!!

Cowboy1600 · 09-08-2004, 2:05 AM

As for bayside real estate....Melbourne as plenty altho as RPinOZ stated, real estate prices have skyrocketed over the past decade (thats for everything, nto just bayside) Geelong is not a gentle 1 1/2 from the CBD now and there are lots of fairly quiet places down that way. The eastern side of the bay is pretty heavily populated, altho there are some really nice places down that way.

Melbourne

My grand parents used to live in Indented Heads, so Ive spent a lot of time down that way and can vouch for it serenity.

Standard conditions in Aus are 38 hour week, 4 weeks holiday a year, and we certainly dont miss out on public holidays either (hell, in Melbourne we get a day off for a horse race!!). In all I think there are about 13 days a year we get off due to public holidays.

This is a good site to have a bit of a looksie

Look!!

There is plenty to do weather u wanna go huge or quiet. Lots of night life, and lots of beach, and bush. I live about 20 mins by bike from the CBD and about 10 mins the other way is very little.

As for wineries....where to start!! I believe Aus has some of the most honest wine anywhere on the planet. Id prolly do myself a nasty if I try to explain. Check this out, it has lots of info on Victoria, including wineries

mmmm....yum yum

Id be happy to answer any other questions u have

Zop · 09-08-2004, 3:43 AM

Don't forget that we, in Melbourne, are allowed to park our bikes on the footpath

Zeeman · 09-08-2004, 5:53 AM

Melbourne - good climate

OK, now that I have recovered...

Airport from Sydney city is about 15 minutes drive. Peak hour probably about 30 (depending on accidents)

There are plenty of empty beaches within 30 - 45 mins of the city - just gotta know where to look

We have less rain.

We do not have a 3km/h (!) tolerance on speeding.

Melbourne does have excellent footpath parking.

I think Melb does hav a better "bike" culture.

They have better cafes (just) but ours are pretty good. And it is easy to find GOOD coffee in both Sydney and Melbourne (unlike the US or Canada. No, don't even think about arguing. Starbucks is NOT good coffee. Neither is Tim Horton)

We have more national park (thus good riding roads) per capita than anyone else, anywhere.

Z...

matt232 · 09-08-2004, 6:17 AM

Quote:

Originally Posted by Zop

Don't forget that we, in Melbourne, are allowed to park our bikes on the footpath

Bikes also have free passage through city link, and lane splitting is not illegal.

Victorian Public holidays

All States public Holidays rolled into one (and school holiday periods)

But the real question nomad is are you going to be able to handle a real christmas with sweltering heat and lots of refreshing ice cold beers? Soon followed by new years eves in fantastic weather!!

In your quest for a place to stay I'd be looking at Perth for the serenity and Melbourne for a bit of it all and a definate pulse to it as well. There are some amazing beaches and the likes over in WA but it did seem 'remote' when I was there.

If you want the occasional weekend or day trip to the snow then your limited to NSW or Vic.

Melbourne has the oldest motorcycle precient in the world at over 100 years of retail shops neing present along Elizabeth street right in heart of the city and there is a bike club for just about anything you can think of.

As Zeeman pointed out melbourne probably doesn't have as good of weather as Sydney but it is still ridable year round but there are many wet miserable days in winter its best just to leave the bike at home.

Queensland and Northern territory don't have 4 seasons only two (as per any tropically clime) a Wet and Dry season. If you aren't used to wet heat I would steer clear of it because the place just sucks energy out of you during the Dry season and I'm told that the Wet season is worse.

One other deciding factor you migth want to consider is that Melbournites tend towards dark colours when they dress where as Sydneysiders have a tendancy for brighter coloured clothes.

If you want to get a better idea of the events that are occuring at any of the cities you are interested you might want to check out http://www.citysearch.com.au/ . That site usually has all the big events but its not comprehensive enough to cover most of the cooler low keys stuff that goes on.

Its all good but I think I'm going to stick in Melbourne.

As for an exxploritory trip around OZ to see where you like the most, I'd say so for it, I went all around the mainland when I was a little tacker its a pretty amazing place. Would love to do it again in the distant future but first I need to see more of the world.

matt232 · 09-08-2004, 6:18 AM

THis website should help you find yourself whereever you are in OZ

http://www.street-directory.com.au/

matt232 · 09-08-2004, 6:19 AM

And this one should ensure you get uterly pissed in melbourne

http://www.melbournepubs.com/

matt232 · 09-08-2004, 6:21 AM

An heres a better idea of the type of wheather to expect

http://www.bom.gov.au/climate/averages/

Jungleboy · 09-08-2004, 6:24 AM

My first choice would be the Gold Coast as I love the weather and the people are so friendy its amazing (well compared to sydney anyway) It is very layed back and Housing prices are a lot cheaper than sydney and its a much nicer place! I grew up in the Southern Highlands (about half way between Sydney and Canberra, its a nice area but a little too cold for me) I moved to the gold coast when I was 21 and stayed there for about 4 years and only returned home out of neccessity (serious back injury

) About 6 months after I returned home I then moved to sydney to study and have only stayed as Im still building a career, I find sydney people cold and inpersonal (not all, just a generalisation), although Sydney has many different subculters depending on the suburb/area. I have only been to Victoria once to go to the motoGP at Phillip Island, which I thoroughly enjoyed but hopefully this year I might venture into Melbourne to get a bit of a feel for the place. These are just my own opinions on a few places but hope they help a little with your decision nomad and a big

To the land of Oz when you make your way down under

Zeeman · 09-08-2004, 6:30 AM

4 weeks annual leave is pretty standard here.

Beware, everything is farkin gpricey in aus. We are the highest taxed English speaking nation, and our car and bike prices are pretty much unreasonable. Not as bad as Europe, but still...

Benefits - don't expect to get dental or health cover with your job, that is an extra you pay for yourself. company cars and the like are quite possible though.

Of course, you could just do what I do. Work for yourself, work 8 solid months per year and then go overseas for 4 months per year

Z...

Cowboy1600 · 09-08-2004, 7:38 AM

Quote:

Originally Posted by Zeeman

Melbourne - good climate

OK, now that I have recovered...

Airport from Sydney city is about 15 minutes drive. Peak hour probably about 30 (depending on accidents)

There are plenty of empty beaches within 30 - 45 mins of the city - just gotta know where to look

We have less rain.

We do not have a 3km/h (!) tolerance on speeding.

Melbourne does have excellent footpath parking.

I think Melb does hav a better "bike" culture.

They have better cafes (just) but ours are pretty good. And it is easy to find GOOD coffee in both Sydney and Melbourne (unlike the US or Canada. No, don't even think about arguing. Starbucks is NOT good coffee. Neither is Tim Horton)

We have more national park (thus good riding roads) per capita than anyone else, anywhere.

Z...

Righto, time to address some untruths