[nhfirefighter13]

Originally Posted by luvtolean

b) They buy the cheapest ammo available for their guns, ie low velocity FMJ bullets (the kind least lethal on a regular unarmored person)

I buy and use the larger, JHP +P, very lethal type. If I shoot you, I don't want you getting back up.

The range (general plinking) gets cheaper FMJ type rounds.

[luvtolean]

Do you think most people use +P cartridges with good bullets in their guns?

I use Golden Sabres, but I don't think most people buy the good stuff ever, and I don't think I'm the average firearms owner.

[nhfirefighter13]

I'm not sure where you are going with the question...

Most people probably do not but I happen to believe in maximum firepower and its ability to resolve...issues.
A standard FMJ 9mm has a very good possibility of not penetrating a leather jacket at anything over 75 feet or so....or so I have been told by a police friend of mine. +P seems the way to go.

[Bacchus]

Originally Posted by luvtolean

c) The average person will not hit you with a pistol shot, under stress at close range. At 7 yards missing a target larger than me with an entire magazine of 10 shots is not uncommon

Here is an article in today's Tucson newspaper that somewhat substantiates LTL's claim. Notice that 13 shots were fired, and only 6 found their target. And I certainly want to thank each and every one of these cops for saving us taxpayers some $$ .

I think Arizona was one of the first states to pass the concealed carry legislation also.

http://www.dailystar.com/dailystar/metro/17032.php

[luvtolean]

And that was cops doing the shooting!

NH, since you quoted me, and then shared that you did differently, I thought you were implying I was wrong. Your last post cleared that up.

[matt232]

Originally Posted by luvtolean

No, for lots of reasons, lemme list several:

1) They're just objects, and I don't fear objects.

2) CCW holders have had background checks and aren't criminals, criminals carry guns by nature, and are also the most likely to use a gun against me

3) Contrary to what Hollywood would have you believe, most people don't die from gunshot wounds, even from high powered rifles used by soldiers. Ask a vet.

4) After spending time at the range and observing people, and let's remember, these are the unique firearms owners who actually goto the range, I've noticed a few things
a) They like semi-auto pistols, 9mm the most popular
b) They buy the cheapest ammo available for their guns, ie low velocity FMJ bullets (the kind least lethal on a regular unarmored person)
c) The average person will not hit you with a pistol shot, under stress at close range. At 7 yards missing a target larger than me with an entire magazine of 10 shots is not uncommon

5) Energy comparison, let's compare the force of a .45 ACP bullet (@800FPS) to that of a 4000 pound car (@ 60 MPH)

Force = ½ mV^2

Car
F=½*1815(kg)*26.82(M/s)^2 = 652,776 N

.45ACP
F=½*.23(kg)*244(m/s)^2 = 6846 N

Who should I fear, the idiot behind the gun or the idiot behind the wheel?

Lucky cars don't come in a semi-automatic clip of ten then!

Is there an equivalent procedure/song to crossing the road, to use when you are looking for a concealed gun?
i.e. "Look to the crim on the left, look to the guy on the right, look to the left again. Then if the suburb is clear of gun toting psychopaths, walk straight down the road, DON'T RUN!!, walk straight down the road"

[luvtolean]

If you have a permit to carry a gun, you have no criminal record worth mentioning and have never been diagnosed with a mental illness.

If you think someone having a gun makes you a psychopath, you have a far different notion of what a piece of metal does to a person than me. I'd also say you are talking to a board of psychopaths since the majority of Americans own a firearm.

I've personally seen several people dead on the road from car accidents, including witnessing the entire wreck sequence where people were killed on 2 occaisions. I've never seen any dead bodies from a shooting. In six years of working at a rehabilitation hospital, I can only remember one person with a gunshot wound, and he was shot by a criminal that had no license for anything. I'd say at least 50% of our census on any given day were car accident victims.

I fear a car a hell of a lot more than a gun. Sorry you don't understand logic.

[Northy]

I can't wait to move to Texas. No CCW here in Nebraska, they've tried every year since I moved here four years ago.

[NinerPilot]

LTL,
When I go to the range I either take some FMJ,s that I have loaded up, or buy some FMJ's there at the range, most of the time, the cheapest I can get. I cant afford to shoot JHPs when Im doing it for fun. Most of the people I shoot with at the range do the same thing, but use JHP's, hydrashocks or the like when they load up and leave. But as far as criminals go, the 2 guns I have gotten off the street both were loaded with FMJ's and one had 1 JHP in the tube, but that was it...
Chris

[nhfirefighter13]

Originally Posted by luvtolean

I thought you were implying I was wrong.

Nah. Nothin of the sort.

[nomad]

Originally Posted by luvtolean

No, for lots of reasons, lemme list several:
<snip>

Who should I fear, the idiot behind the gun or the idiot behind the wheel?

Uh... i didn't ask a question but thanks for the answer...

As for your question, whom you fear is a personal choice. I don't think I fear anyone . Regardless, I believe the intent of your question is to ask me if I think the gun-toting-idiot is more dangerous than the car-toting-idiot. My perspective is that a gun-toting-idiot is harder to avoid, even if they are less common. Are they more dangerous? Half of one, six dozen of the other. Now, I also feel that driving is a necessity for most idiots where toting a gun is their choice... usually a bad one if they are an idiot.

[BigDaddyJ]

I fear a car a hell of a lot more than a gun.

I think people look at this the wrong way some times. The bigest problem with gun laws that restrict gun ownership is the fact that criminals don't obey the law, they're criminals after all. I would much rather see someone whos background has been checked, and who has undergone some training walking around with a gun then most of the people that somehow get a license and are sitting behind the wheel of a car.

[nomad]

Originally Posted by luvtolean

I fear a car a hell of a lot more than a gun. Sorry you don't understand logic.

now, now. No need to resort to personal attacks on the guy.

Since when did fear and logic go hand in hand? People are afraid to fly... why? It's safer than being in a car. People are afraid of garden snakes... why? They are harmless. People are afraid of the dark... why? Nothing has changed.

Now as a rebutal, just to play the devil's advocate - people that don't know how to handle weapons properly are dangerous. Guns were designed with one purpose and that was to kill (Seriously, can you imagine a Glock marketing ad for guns that are designed with nerf bullets?). Whether you are a hunter, or need it for protection or just like to look at the beautiful workmanship, all guns were designed to kill - ok, not radar guns but the real kind. People that buy guns, think they may have a reason to use a gun - i.e. kill... defensive action (self preservation) or offensive action(Hunting, crime) they feel there is a need. A car on the other hand can kill but if it does, it's usually an accident, not on purpose. Soo..... one logical view would be that gun-toters are to be feared because they have an intent to kill (see above re: defensive or offensive) as opposed to car-toters that have no intent. See? That view shows that it is rational to fear gun-toters more than car-toters.

*shrug* Like I said in my last post, 6 of 1, half dozen of the other.

[MedTechRR]

Yipppeeeeee, I'm goin to Grattan!!!!!!!!!!!!!

[nomad]

hehe... I see a whole lotta gun supporters spoilin' for a fight over gun laws. I think everyone that'll jump in likes freedom of gun laws... so lets avoid the whole subject.

i know i know... I'm too opinionated to let this go.
My view on gun laws? I have no problem with needing a license to own guns. I think there should be multi-tiers and restrictions on what type you can purchase... i.e. Hunter level, Automatic level etc. Not to restrict people from having guns but to ensure they are properly trained.

And lets face it, gun laws, registrations don't prevent criminals from having guns. So keep any rebuttals based on rational people. The real corelation with criminals is volume of guns is directly proportional to criminal accessibility. Lots of guns in the country = easy criminal access = more guns involved in crimes. Easy. But that has nothing to do with gun laws.

[nhfirefighter13]

Originally Posted by 2k2954

Yipppeeeeee, I'm goin to Grattan!!!!!!!!!!!!!

[fivestar]

What a mess. We have received upwards of 20-30 calls a day reguarding this. We start the application process on Monday.

[fivestar]

Originally Posted by luvtolean

I've never seen any dead bodies from a shooting.
I fear a car a hell of a lot more than a gun. Sorry you don't understand logic.

Not me. I've seen far more death by guns, including fellow brothers.

As for fearing cars vs. bullets, I'm MUCH more afraid of bullets. My logic: You can see a moving car, and you have more reaction time before you get hit.

[fivestar]

Originally Posted by luvtolean

No, for lots of reasons, lemme list several:
2) CCW holders have had background checks and aren't criminals, criminals carry guns by nature, and are also the most likely to use a gun against me

Yes, very true. These are mainly older people who are attempting to follow the law to the best of their ability.

[fivestar]

[quote=luvtolean]No, for lots of reasons, lemme list several:


3) Contrary to what Hollywood would have you believe, most people don't die from gunshot wounds, even from high powered rifles used by soldiers. Ask a vet.

[quote]
This is true, except for police officers.

[Pete]

Originally Posted by Newfie TLR

And you expected something different in Texas??

(Where's Pete when you need him??)

LOL, but seriously, I intentionally stay away from threads related to politics, religion, and guns. I don't need the added stress.

[Newfie TLR]

Hey Pete. How've ya been?? It's been a while.

[Pete]

Originally Posted by Newfie TLR

Hey Pete. How've ya been?? It's been a while.

Doing just fine, Newfie, thanks. Just getting over a sinus infection and pneumonia, but other than that, things are good.

[matt232]

Originally Posted by luvtolean

If you have a permit to carry a gun, you have no criminal record worth mentioning and have never been diagnosed with a mental illness.

If you think someone having a gun makes you a psychopath, you have a far different notion of what a piece of metal does to a person than me. I'd also say you are talking to a board of psychopaths since the majority of Americans own a firearm.

I've personally seen several people dead on the road from car accidents, including witnessing the entire wreck sequence where people were killed on 2 occaisions. I've never seen any dead bodies from a shooting. In six years of working at a rehabilitation hospital, I can only remember one person with a gunshot wound, and he was shot by a criminal that had no license for anything. I'd say at least 50% of our census on any given day were car accident victims.

I fear a car a hell of a lot more than a gun. Sorry you don't understand logic.

whoa relax mate, I meant no offense, sorry if you took it to heart.

I'll definately give you marks for workings on those calculations and I can see your point but to me it looks like you are comparing oranges and apples.

I come from a country where a high percentage of people are not carrying guns on a daily basis. The idea that many people have an implement that makes it easy for them to play god with anyones life is quite unsettling. Sure someone behind the wheel has a similar power, but a car is not specifically designed to take a life, and each time you useor venture near the road you do so with the acknowledgement that there is the potential for serious injury and accept that possibility to a cetain degree (some more than others juding by how reckless some are). I don't jump out of bed in the morning and accept the fact that there is a chance I could get shot.

No I don't believe that just because you have a gun you are automatically a "gun toting psychopaths", its quite true that guns don't kill people, people kill people and its the person who has lost it, that you would have to watch out for in a crowd. Plus I was only trying to re-write the words to a road safety song that was created for kids in Australia, and "gun toting psychopaths" wa