UK Riders - ‘Motorcycle detection system’ on roads by Easter

LoopyLee · 02-21-2009, 10:34 AM

... What do you think of this then

Quote:

A new surveillance system designed to track movements of motorcyclists on the roads will be operational by Easter, MCN can reveal.

The technology can tell motorcycles apart from other vehicles, measure their speeds and will be able to read number plates under plans. Data such as the routes taken by individual motorcyclists along with time and date will be collected and kept even if they have committed no offence.

The £100,000 project has prompted civil rights groups to express grave concerns about the potential for invasion of motorcyclists’ privacy.

Speed camera bossed behind the scheme have named it the ‘motorcycle data project’ and the equipment a ‘motorcycle detection system’.

It will scrutinise movements of motorcyclists in particular and be switched on to coincide with the start of the riding season in April, they say.

The new surveillance system has been installed on eight routes in Derbyshire by the region’s speed camera partnership, including the popular Cat & Fiddle run on the A54 and A537 near Buxton.

Under-road sensors already in place will distinguish motorcycles from other vehicles by their weight and width. Speed will be measured by timing their progress between two sensors a short distance apart. The system has been designed to work alongside Automatic Number Plate Recognition (ANPR) and video cameras.

A spokeswoman for the scheme said knowing where riders were from would allow road safety ads to target key areas, for example through local newspapers.
But Isabella Sankey, Director of Policy for the civil rights group Liberty, said: “The road to massive-scale real-time surveillance is paved with good intentions. We understand the safety issues involved but it rings alarm bells that this information may be used for targeted advertising campaigns.
"We have no problem with ANPR being used to locate vehicles whose owners the police firmly suspect of having committed an offence but it shouldn't be used as a tool of mass surveillance.”
The Derby and Derbyshire Road Safety Partnership said the aim was to “gather intelligence” to “prevent motorcycle casualties” through measures such as speed warning signs, extra police patrols and safer roadside barriers.

Partnership manager Robert Hill said he hoped to add ANPR cameras in order to work out “how these vehicles are travelling around”.

He said there were no plans to use the data for enforcement but admitted it could be used as evidence. “If the police are aware that it’s there then they would want to look at it and then obviously there are issues about whether they would want to use it as evidence,” he added.

Hill said the eight routes had been chosen to target motorcyclists. “The data will be collected on all vehicles equally on those routes. However in terms of the analysis of that data we’re going to pay particular attention to motorcycles,” he said.
“That’s why they’re on those routes. We haven’t got a traffic management issue on those routes with any other vehicles that we’re aware of.
"Why they’ve gone there is because we know there’s a casualty problem with motorcycles on those routes.

“There will be concerns about data collection but ultimately the data we are collecting on this project is around casualty reduction.”

The system has been installed on the:
• A5012 from Cromford to Ivonbrook Quarry
• A621 from Baslow to Owler Bar
• A57 Snake Pass from Glossop outskirts to Nether North Grain
• B5035 from Ashbourne outskirts to Wirksworth
• A515 from Ashbourne to Alsop-en-le-Dale
• A6 Matlock Bath from High Peak Junction to Artist’s Corner
• A54 and A537 Cat & Fiddle run from Buxton to Cat & Fiddle pub
• A5004 Long Hill from Buxton to Fernilee

Maps of all eight routes can be found in a ‘Bikers’ Guide’ printed by the council. Download it here.

MCN first revealed plans for the new surveillance technology last year when a notice appeared in the Official Journal of the European Union inviting technology firms to bid for a contract to provide ‘automatic motorcycle detection equipment and associated services’.
That notice made clear it should be possible for video cameras to be added. It said: ‘The Contract is for the supply of equipment and services in order to accurately detect motorcycles and to facilitate the automatic operation of Variable Message Signs (VMS), Video Data Capture (VDC) and a further potential option of Automatic Number Plate Recognition (ANPR). A fundamental part of this project is the accurate detection of motorcyclists and the user defined triggering of VMS, VDC and ANPR.’

muddysteel · 02-21-2009, 7:58 PM

I think it sucks.. Smacks of big brother getting involved.

Quote:

Under-road sensors already in place will distinguish motorcycles from other vehicles by their weight and width. Speed will be measured by timing their progress between two sensors a short distance apart. The system has been designed to work alongside Automatic Number Plate Recognition (ANPR) and video cameras.

I wonder how this is measured? If it's anything like signal lights, then applying one of those BIG magnets to the lower (which is supposed to make your bike easier for the signal to detect) might have an interesting skewing effect on the raw data..

thelastosirus · 02-23-2009, 2:08 PM

This makes me think of that movie "V for Vendetta".

dicknose · 02-23-2009, 6:21 PM

Quote:

Originally Posted by muddysteel

I wonder how this is measured? If it's anything like signal lights, then applying one of those BIG magnets to the lower (which is supposed to make your bike easier for the signal to detect) might have an interesting skewing effect on the raw data..

Generally its a pressure sensor.
They use them here for measuring speed (often backed up by a radar).
The sensors trigger when something goes over them but could be calibrated to detect a range of weights.
Since they are built into the road they can work on a lane by lane basis (although you might be able to lane split between them!)

I have no great problem with using them as speed traps.
But I think general "tracking" of private vehicles is wrong.
If it was route/time of day tracking and the number plate was only used for tracking the individual journey and wasnt kept in the on-going database, I could see it being useful. But keeping it against a number plate for reasons unknown is wrong.

Stick · 02-23-2009, 6:42 PM

Next they will be installing cameras in bathrooms. If you wipe carelessly, don't was your hands, or don't flush you will be fined and lose your bathroom privileges.

muddysteel · 02-24-2009, 3:22 AM

Quote:

Originally Posted by Stick

Next they will be installing cameras in bathrooms. If you wipe carelessly, don't was your hands, or don't flush you will be fined and lose your bathroom privileges.

Ah crap!

LoopyLee · 02-24-2009, 3:28 AM

Quote:

Originally Posted by Stick

Next they will be installing cameras in bathrooms. If you wipe carelessly, don't was your hands, or don't flush you will be fined and lose your bathroom privileges.

Quote:

Originally Posted by muddysteel

Ah crap!

fighter954rr · 02-24-2009, 4:17 AM

A spokeswoman for the scheme said knowing where riders were from would allow road safety ads to target key areas, for example through local newspapers

SO WHY DO THEY NEED OUR NUMBER PLATES?!?!?! Its complete bullshit! i h4te this country, and why arent they doing the same thing to car drivers. I seriously think i will be leaving england within the next 5 years, its becoming almost impossible to enjoy yourself. Worst idea ever. EVER. id like to install a massive camera up her ar5e... Why should we ride in fear? spending more time in the mirrors than looking where were going?....(not that i have any ahem....)

LoopyLee · 02-24-2009, 5:17 AM

Quote:

Data such as the routes taken by individual motorcyclists along with time and date will be collected and kept even if they have committed no offence.

Quote:

The system has been designed to work alongside Automatic Number Plate Recognition (ANPR) and video cameras.

Quote:

Partnership manager Robert Hill said he hoped to add ANPR cameras in order to work out “how these vehicles are travelling around”.(coughborroxcough)

He said there were no plans to use the data for enforcement but admitted it could be used as evidence. “If the police are aware that it’s there then they would want to look at it and then obviously there are issues about whether they would want to use it as evidence,” he added.

So if the Police are 'aware' it's there they 'may' want to look at it, huh?

Quote:

The Derbyshire Road Safety Partnership works alongside with Derbyshire Safety Camera Partnership. Derbyshire Safety Camera Partnership is made up of similar partner agencies – Derbyshire Constabulary, Derbyshire County Council, Derby City Council, Highways Agency, Derbyshire Magistrates Service and the Crown Prosecution Service

So in all honesty they 'could' bag the information from the sensors and a veritable avalance of tickets could be issued

Quote:

The Safety Camera Partnership has developed into a substantial organisation employing about 40 staff and has an average annual income of around £2m.

Flamin' 'ell!!!!

Quote:

Speed camera bossed behind the scheme have named it the ‘motorcycle data project’ and the equipment a ‘motorcycle detection system’.

yer right... and I was born yesterday!!!!! They in charge in this country must think we are completely and utterly stupid if they think we are going to believe a load of bull sh!t like that!

I can understand the authorities wanting to reduce road deaths but fail to see how keeping the details of the motorbike and its owner via the ANPR system, and the details of each journey made, is going to do that

I think 'Big Brother' will be issueing tickets!!

I found these in a discussion paper from the Derbyshire Road Safety Partnership

Quote:

In recent years there has been a steady reduction in the number of casualties on Derbyshire’s roads.

Quote:

It should be noted, however, that these figures mask continuing problems in some areas and among some types of road user. For example, the number of motorcyclists killed and injured on Derbyshire’s roads remains stubbornly high.

I did like the way it was put "remains stubbornly high"

I also found a site which reports that surveillance cameras are now watching some speed cameras in the area as they kept getting vandalised!!!! So now we have cameras watching cameras

fighter954rr · 02-24-2009, 5:22 AM

i think the proof is in the pudding with the money they be makin, its the same as speed camera's theyre just revenue generators... they will automatically spunk out about 400 tickets a day and just reap the profits, oh wonderful England, makes it hard to be proud really doesnt it, when your constantly being shafted...

LoopyLee · 02-24-2009, 5:27 AM

And that £2 million is just from one council in the country! The flippin government must be absolutely raking it in

LoopyLee · 02-24-2009, 5:29 AM

I'll tell you what I'll do... I'll win the lottery, buy a fecking huge bit of land and build a massive free to use track so anyone can come and play to their hearts content

fighter954rr · 02-24-2009, 5:33 AM

yeah then the council will fine you £47406750465745617 for noise polution!!!

LoopyLee · 02-24-2009, 5:34 AM

Quote:

Originally Posted by fighter954rr

yeah then the council will fine you £47406750465745617 for noise polution!!!

oh

Surffrog · 02-24-2009, 6:17 AM

As always, Loopy, every time you post these tales of life back home the happier I am that I don't live there.

However, the problem I see here is far deeper than just revenue collection. They say they're setting this system up to:

Quote:

Originally Posted by LoopyLee

"scrutinise movements of motorcyclists in particular ..."

What's not being said here is that they have the ability to determine the difference between vehicles over and above the use of cameras picking up your plates.

Quote:

Originally Posted by LoopyLee

The new surveillance system has been installed on eight routes in Derbyshire by the region’s speed camera partnership, including the popular Cat & Fiddle run on the A54 and A537 near Buxton. A spokeswoman for the scheme said knowing where riders were from would allow road safety ads to target key areas, for example through local newspapers.

If the real purpose of such a device is to research and determine where the problem areas are so they can properly direct advertising campaigns, then how did they determine these areas are problem areas? Something doesn't ring true does it? They already know that these areas are a problem. A couple of months study through the police files for traffic accidents told them that without spending anywhere near this kind of money.

Quote:

Originally Posted by LoopyLee

But Isabella Sankey, Director of Policy for the civil rights group Liberty, said: “The road to massive-scale real-time surveillance is paved with good intentions. We understand the safety issues involved but it rings alarm bells that this information may be used for targeted advertising campaigns.
"We have no problem with ANPR being used to locate vehicles whose owners the police firmly suspect of having committed an offence but it shouldn't be used as a tool of mass surveillance.”

I wholeheartedly agree

because it is (or was before "the war on terror") an illegal infringement of individual privacy!

Quote:

Originally Posted by LoopyLee

The Derby and Derbyshire Road Safety Partnership said the aim was to “gather intelligence”...

No, no. Don't go on. You've said it all right there in those last two words

Quote:

Originally Posted by LoopyLee

Partnership manager Robert Hill said he hoped to add ANPR cameras in order to work out “how these vehicles are travelling around”.

Well, let me save you millions of pounds. They get around by burning gasoline, and they have two rolling devices called "wheels" to help them

Quote:

Originally Posted by LoopyLee

He said there were no plans to use the data for enforcement but admitted it could be used as evidence.

This is political (small 'p') speak for, "We didn't write anything down because we don't want the public to have anything concrete to fight against until we're ready!")

Quote:

Originally Posted by LoopyLee

Hill said the eight routes had been chosen to target motorcyclists. “The data will be collected on all vehicles equally on those routes. However in terms of the analysis of that data we’re going to pay particular attention to motorcycles,” he said.

This is an old battle tactic. It's called divide and conquer. Many car drivers don't like bike riders so they don't feel any pressure to get behind a campaign to bring a stop to it... until it's targeting them, which will be too late.

Quote:

Originally Posted by fighter954rr

A spokeswoman for the scheme said knowing where riders were from would allow road safety ads to target key areas, for example through local newspapers

SO WHY DO THEY NEED OUR NUMBER PLATES?!?!?! Its complete bullshit! i h4te this country, and why arent they doing the same thing to car drivers. I seriously think i will be leaving england within the next 5 years, its becoming almost impossible to enjoy yourself. Worst idea ever. EVER. id like to install a massive camera up her ar5e... Why should we ride in fear? spending more time in the mirrors than looking where were going?....(not that i have any ahem....)

Thailand is waiting for you Fighter

Quote:

Originally Posted by LoopyLee

I'll tell you what I'll do... I'll win the lottery, buy a fecking huge bit of land and build a massive free to use track so anyone can come and play to their hearts content

Perhaps, but the police will know everyone's personal details before they even get there. That's what this is about; gathering intelligence on EVERYONE eventually

dr256 · 02-24-2009, 6:18 AM

Its beginning to feel like certain lobby groups are hell bent on making it effectively illegal to ride a motorcycle.

I think it's about time we start finding out what these people like to do and target them also.

After all, the best form of defense is attack!

Surffrog · 02-24-2009, 6:27 AM

Quote:

Originally Posted by dr256

Its beginning to feel like certain lobby groups are hell bent on making it effectively illegal to ride a motorcycle.

I think it's about time we start finding out what these people like to do and target them also.

After all, the best form of defense is attack!

How about turning the surveillance on them. "Yes, Prime Minister, we are very concerned that these Lobby groups have an ulterior motive and have, in fact, several spies working within the system. We believe they are preparing a system that will advise them of all YOUR movements in order to better effect a kidnapping of the Leader of this country.
"As a consequence, we recommend several months of "open" surveillance on these characters just to scare them off."

dr256 · 02-24-2009, 6:30 AM

Interestingly death have already fallen in Derbyshire - prior to this new system. Here's a link to an article:

Derbyshire anti-speed camera groups' anger at news of second unmarked van

Perhaps we should all collectively agree to avoid every route where this system is being proposed. If there are no motorcycles on the road the system will be useless.

Surffrog · 02-24-2009, 6:31 AM

Quote:

Originally Posted by dr256

Interestingly death have already fallen in Derbyshire - prior to this new system. Here's a link to an article:

Derbyshire anti-speed camera groups' anger at news of second unmarked van

Perhaps we should all collectively agree to avoid every route where this system is being proposed. If there are no motorcycles on the road the system will be useless.

Great idea

LoopyLee · 02-24-2009, 6:40 AM

Quote:

Originally Posted by Surffrog

As always, Loopy, every time you post these tales of life back home the happier I am that I don't live there.

I sometimes wish I didn't

Quote:

Originally Posted by surffrog

Well, let me save you millions of pounds. They get around by burning gasoline, and they have two rolling devices called "wheels" to help them

Rep for that

Quote:

Originally Posted by dr256

Perhaps we should all collectively agree to avoid every route where this system is being proposed. If there are no motorcycles on the road the system will be useless.

My thoughts exactly... Just avoid the roads

fighter954rr · 02-24-2009, 6:47 AM

Quote:

Originally Posted by dr256

Interestingly death have already fallen in Derbyshire - prior to this new system. Here's a link to an article:

Derbyshire anti-speed camera groups' anger at news of second unmarked van

Perhaps we should all collectively agree to avoid every route where this system is being proposed. If there are no motorcycles on the road the system will be useless.

brilliant idea!! we could even put up signs saying "bikers turn left here or be tracked forever!!!!"

fighter954rr · 02-24-2009, 6:48 AM

Under-road sensors already in place will distinguish motorcycles from other vehicles by their weight and width.

I might buy a goldwing and show up as a car!

LoopyLee · 02-24-2009, 6:50 AM

Quote:

Originally Posted by fighter954rr

I might buy a goldwing and show up as a car!

I really don't think such desperate measures are needed!

fighter954rr · 02-24-2009, 7:17 AM

actually yeah i'm gonna go and cut my hands off just for saying that...

Surffrog · 02-24-2009, 7:18 AM

Quote:

Originally Posted by fighter954rr

actually yeah i'm gonna go and cut my hands off just for saying that...

That's too harsh you didn't say Harley

fighter954rr · 02-24-2009, 7:29 AM

Didn't say what?!?!?!? im sure the moderators will pick that word up and close the entire forum!!!! you cant write H????y!!!!!!!

Surffrog · 02-24-2009, 7:32 AM

Quote:

Originally Posted by fighter954rr

Didn't say what?!?!?!? im sure the moderators will pick that word up and close the entire forum!!!! you cant write H????y!!!!!!!

Sorry. Allow me to rephraze: You didn't say Hardly Ableson

fighter954rr · 02-24-2009, 7:33 AM

bettingpython · 02-24-2009, 8:16 AM

Quote:

Originally Posted by fighter954rr

...

I might buy a goldwing and show up as a car!

Come on over to the states we've got room. Just don't ask for the government to take care of you.

Quote:

Originally Posted by LoopyLee

I really don't think such desperate measures are needed!

Nothing wrong with a wing, loved my '83 great for taking long trips on.

Quote:

Originally Posted by Surffrog

That's too harsh you didn't say Harley

Thats time out for you youngster, Using HD in a thread

jdugen · 02-24-2009, 8:23 AM

For all you Americans / others who might not understand what is being talked about here, I'll explain. For riders from the Midlands and northern England, the roads around Buxton, Matlock Baths and Ashbourne are weekly rides and gathering places during our 'summertime'. Superb as these roads are, they have been increasingly policed over the last ten years, basically because ever increasing numbers of born agains were (still are) wiping themselves out.
My first real taste of 'hard riding' was the stretch known as Long Hill. Getting that right took some time, but... and a big but, we did our learning on 60's 250's. God knows what kind of a mess I would have made on something like a modern 600, let alone the litre bikes that are readily available.

Once I see a collection of dayglo leathers anywhere near my riding area, I go looking elsewhere. From Long Hill I moved out to the Yorkshire Dales, Ingleton to Hawes, scariest road in the UK. Guess what, the palce is now full of dayglo leathers with the usual clutch of police in close attendance.
WHY DO THESE PEOPLE insist on fitting race pipes and acting like dick heads when they KNOW that the police will happily lie in wait for them and anyone else they fancy to give the once over.
Britains roads are far to crowded for any reasonable person to allow this to continue.
I like my speed, love my 'blade. I do what I do out on the continent, empty roads, tolerant and bike aware populations. Then I scare myself whitless round the 'ring. Once a year I ride roads that fit my bike, the rest of the time in England I might as well have another 60's 250, proably just as much fun.