[RPinOZ]

Originally Posted by abtech

Most track schools advise new riders not to use the rear brake (or to use it sparingly), because most riders are not used to the amount of weight transfer involved while braking at track speeds and end up locking the rear wheel during hard braking. Once you have learned to finesse the rear brake with zero weight on the rear wheel, then go for it.

And on the street if you are in the habit of using a little bit of back brake for normal stopping it becomes grooved in to your subconsious and you get the same rear lockup problem in a panic stop (whereas if you don't use your back brake you could go over the bars instead ).

Having once had a near crash locking up the rear years ago when an idiot cop stepped out from behind a bush to stop and book me, I try to avoid the back brake except for low speed manouvres (slipping the clutch with revs up), riding on dodgy surfaces and as a park brake on a slope.

On the track I don't use it at all. Any backing in is courtesy of engine braking.

And I ride with my balls on the pegs

[Trackho]

Originally Posted by G-Force Junkie

Never, except to hold the bike still at a stoplight.

Ditto---BTW most racers use the clutch to "back-it-in" NOT the rear brake

[Red Rider]

Originally Posted by RPinOZ

And I ride with my balls on the pegs

Ouch...that's gotta hurt!

[TGZ13]

Originally Posted by Red Rider

Ouch...that's gotta hurt!

Maybe he is into that rough stuff but I prefer my balls on the seat

[ZX10R_DADDY]

Not too easy to lock up my rear on my ZX10, nor on my old 929. After all, they are dinky and they are wimpy (on purposey)

Now my old 1975 Honda 750F damn near croaked me with a rear slide at 70 what with it's Flexy Flier frame. Almost didn't make it to twenty.

[abtech]

Even though you don't think you can lock up the rear brake on your ZX, I'll bet you could if you were braking as hard as possible from 140 with the front brakes and basically looked crosseyed at the rear brake lever. When the rear wheel is essentially hovering over the tarmac, even the slightest amount of braking can lock it up in a heartbeat.

Now just imagine hitting it with the suspension unloaded while cresting a rise or large bump, or pitching the bike side to side through an ess turn. I have seen every brand and model of sportbike highside, lowside, flip, flop and spin from using the rear brake at the wrong time or place.

Like I said previously, we don't recommend it for people running at the track without a LOT of experience.

[ZX10R_DADDY]

Who is we? And its really funny you mention 140 mph today and hauling it down. Hmmmmm. Let me say the more I think about this brake issue, and all the responses about not using the back brakes at all, the more I wanna say that's fukin bullshiit. To not utilize what you have, to rely only on the front, and just toss about 25% of your braking capability out the door may very weel be the ******* lamest thing I've ever come across. It could very well be just as dangerous to the less adept as overuse of the back brake. As I was motoring through my favorite two laner twisty today, I did a mental tally of my brake usage and got in touch with what comes naturally. Use the brakes, use em both. It did not matter that I was in a turn, it did not matter that I was hauling it down from 140 in 4th with the amber shift light just coming on, and it did not matter that I was at legal speeds. And after 36 years of riding, I can assure you that I do not have to look back to see if my back wheel is locked or floating in mid air. I do not know of the we you talk about but if imagination is needed to bolster your position, that's fine by me.

Make all the points ya want about front only braking, but shiit, daddy-o, it do not make it anything even close to gospel. I'll be burning pads front and rear.

[Baketech]

[Heavy-Dee]

My money is on Abtech

[Zeeman]

I think the point Abtech is trying to make is that it is a good idea for someone with little or no track experience to first learn to use the front brake properly, and then to slowly learn to use the rear brake, as track riding and street riding are quite different.

Z...

[abtech]

Originally Posted by ZX10R_DADDY

Who is we? And its really funny you mention 140 mph today and hauling it down. Hmmmmm. Let me say the more I think about this brake issue, and all the responses about not using the back brakes at all, the more I wanna say that's fukin bullshiit. To not utilize what you have, to rely only on the front, and just toss about 25% of your braking capability out the door may very weel be the ******* lamest thing I've ever come across. It could very well be just as dangerous to the less adept as overuse of the back brake. As I was motoring through my favorite two laner twisty today, I did a mental tally of my brake usage and got in touch with what comes naturally. Use the brakes, use em both. It did not matter that I was in a turn, it did not matter that I was hauling it down from 140 in 4th with the amber shift light just coming on, and it did not matter that I was at legal speeds. And after 36 years of riding, I can assure you that I do not have to look back to see if my back wheel is locked or floating in mid air. I do not know of the we you talk about but if imagination is needed to bolster your position, that's fine by me.

Make all the points ya want about front only braking, but shiit, daddy-o, it do not make it anything even close to gospel. I'll be burning pads front and rear.

The "we" I mention is the collective group of riding and race instructors that I work with and have learned from including all of the instructors at the Kevin Schwantz School, Learning Curves, WERA Racer school, Trackoholics and the FAST School (Michele Mercier's organization). I guarantee you that even with 36 years of riding experience, any one of these instructors (self included) has logged more time testing what works for riding fast under any circumstances than you have. If you have good success using the rear brake, then that's just wonderful.

What amazes me about your replies, is that you have somehow assumed that I don't use the rear brake. I use it all the time, but have seen the results of inexperienced riders using "street braking" techniques at the track and always advise against it until they can develop a better feel for what the bike does when braking with the rear suspension unloaded.

I can also guarantee you that any braking you may do on the street isn't comparable whatsoever to braking in a race environment on the track. I invite you to come out to the track and discover this for yourself.

[Heavy-Dee]

Originally Posted by Zeeman

I think the point Abtech is trying to make is that it is a good idea for someone with little or no track experience to first learn to use the front brake properly, and then to slowly learn to use the rear brake, as track riding and street riding are quite different.

Z...

Additionally, as one gets better and better w/ the front they shifting more of the bikes weight to the front tire and off of the back. This in turn makes it much easier to lock up the back wheel.

As one gets better w/ the font brake they may use the same about of stopping force but do so in an accelerated period of time shifting weight back to font even faster, complicating matters a bit.

It really doesn't matter how many years of riding experience anyone has. The quality of the experience is what really matters. Abtech has been riding on the track longer than I've been alive (sorry bud) and track time is world's more valuable that any amount of street time. I think it is safe to say that there is a good chance that if Abtech says it, you might want to listen. If you don't, that's your call, but don't bitch when you end up on your head.

HD

[abtech]

Time compression . . . Braking from 140 on the street and taking 350 feet to get down to 60 is a bit different from braking on the track from 140 (to get down to 60) in about 100 feet while throwing it on it's side. Trust me . . .

[ZX10R_DADDY]

I've never been on a track so that world is quite irrelevant to me. I've never taken a course, so that point is moot. Others here say they never use the back or rarely at best. This is the point I have contention with. Your point of view is from an instructor, on a track. Tracks are known for the fastest of riding. Street, well that is as fast as one may admit to riding. I can assure you that I have both accelerated and decelerated at maximum rates feasable for my years of experience on everything I've ever owned and many that I've just tried. Look, your 54, so in those years prior to your enlightenment you certainly must have learned a few things on your own with minimal outside influence. Well, now a days there are people with opinions about everything from how to get out of bed to how to look good in a coffin. In my minds eye, I can see some hack on the street taking some nitwits advice and coming into a turn hot, just squeezing the shiit out of the front lever without any back application and just washing out, because he read somewhere that 'good' riders dont' use the back binder. You have to admit that a great percentage of folks will never take a track class and will rely on what they can pick up elsewhere.
That in and of itself is the greatest reason for me to be so vocal on the issue.

I ride within the limits of my capability on the street. I doubt I'll ever approach any limitation on the equipment I own but I do ride forcefully. The benefits of track time are many, however they do not prepare you for all eventualities. For the most part, the track formations and pack movements are fairly predictable compared to riding amongst the cages. This is the ultimate world of chaos which pushes many riders to tracks, some giving up road riding entirely. This I conclude from reading many a post from riders coming just too damn close on the street. Few situations on the street sweat my nuts, as my responses have turned for the most part automatic.
Cars pulling out to give you that "T" bone feeling. Boner heads hanging over the double yellow in your favorite sweeper. The cell phone hack who you know well ahead of time that hes gonna pull into your lane and stuff you against the concrete barrier. Or how about the country dog, at 85 mph? He's a favorite. Gotta stand up and bring her over to avoid the patch of gravel in that hairpin? You've been there. How about looking in your rear view at the stop and seeing some yokel who you know is gonna be occupying your space in about 60 mSec and saying "Have it assbite" as you move over out of the way. I know what it's like to come in way too hot on a mountain curve, knowing damn well that any application of binders could wash out the bike and that for those few moments I just have to hang on through the drift.
One of my favorites is the hostile dick in the punk car who wants to probe your asshole from behind. Just slowly bring him up in speed while maintaining a safe distance from you. Get him thinking "These bikes ain't shiit. We're doing 120 and my baby is not even breathing hard" Then leave him.
Track riding/instructions=good
MSF=good
Years of experience and a strong desire not to frikken eat it=priceless

Peace, fellow enthusiast.

[luvtolean]

Originally Posted by abtech

Time compression . . . Braking from 140 on the street and taking 350 feet to get down to 60 is a bit different from braking on the track from 140 (to get down to 60) in about 100 feet while throwing it on it's side. Trust me . . .

Understatement of the year. If you are braking properly, the rear doesn't have enough weight on it to matter anyway.

[ZX10R_DADDY]

luvtolean, you little stinker! It's me, Bigdaa!

[Red Rider]

If you go into a turn too hot and hit the back brake it's going to cause the bike stand up and run straight...or lock up altogether. I've seen way too many skid marks of "rear brakers" that run straight off the road.

[abtech]

"I can see some hack on the street taking some nitwits advice and coming into a turn hot, just squeezing the shiit out of the front lever without any back application and just washing out, because he read somewhere that 'good' riders dont' use the back binder."

Actually, if you read what I have written, you will see that I believe only the 'good' riders should be using the rear brake. I would wager that in your example more people (hacks as you put it) have crashed because they used the rear brake rather than using the front the way it is meant to be used. In fact, I believe there are some significant statistics from the AMA showing that inexperienced riders crash more often in a panic situation because they used the rear brake in an attempt to immediately slow down or avoid a collision.

Someone mentioned earlier in this thread that they were concerned about going over the bars if they used too much front brake. I have heard this over and over for the past 40 some odd years, yet I have never actually seen or heard of this happening on any contemporary motorcycle. One of the drills I have seen used during various riding schools is to apply enough front brake at high speed to get the tire to howl which is what happens immediately before the braking overcomes available traction at the front wheel. Most people who experience this are amazed at how much braking it takes before the front end will actually lock up (this is always done with the bike straight up and not leaned over). The front is more likely to wash out while trail braking with the front brake at lower speeds at or near full lean.

Any abrupt manuevers (braking, chopping the throttle, shifting your weight etc.) mid corner can overload the front tire or change the weight bias significantly enough to cause a lowside and that is why "we" teach riders to be as smooth as possible and not upset the chassis while cornering. If the rider has to react to the rear wheel locking up while entering a corner, chances are they will over-react and make the situation worse. Learning to "under-react" to unexpected events only comes with experience and technique developed over time.

[ZX10R_DADDY]

One of the drills I have seen used during various riding schools is to apply enough front brake at high speed to get the tire to howl which is what happens immediately before the braking overcomes available traction at the front wheel. Most people who experience this are amazed at how much braking it takes before the front end will actually lock up (this is always done with the bike straight up and not leaned over).

I must concurr as without having been taught the actual technique or even knowing it existed I do this on my bikes.

[phozed]

Originally Posted by ZX10R_DADDY

I've never been on a track so that world is quite irrelevant to me. I've never taken a course, so that point is moot.<snip>

now that's some healthy reasoning... don't think I'll touch that one...

after reading your post I don't see much that actually discusses the pros of rear brake usage, just some odd stories and logical extremes. So what if the same newbie hammers the rear brake and doesn't touch the front? Same thing if he grabs too much front - a crash.

What I think everyone is politely trying to tell you - is in your many years of street riding you've probably (if ever) used 100% of your stopping power a handful of times. On the racetrack, the good ones do it before almost every turn.

[Heavy-Dee]

Originally Posted by ZX10R_DADDY

One of the drills I have seen used during various riding schools is to apply enough front brake at high speed to get the tire to howl which is what happens immediately before the braking overcomes available traction at the front wheel. Most people who experience this are amazed at how much braking it takes before the front end will actually lock up (this is always done with the bike straight up and not leaned over).

I must concurr as without having been taught the actual technique or even knowing it existed I do this on my bikes.

IF that is true, then you are riding too hard on the street and you should sell your bike and stop riding b/c you are ruining it for the rest of us.

HD

[HondaGalToo]

Hey BigDaa. Sick of Motorush? Peace, man. Abtech knows what he's talking about. I've seen more folks get into trouble on the street as well as the track from not properly using their front brakes and applying too much rear. Not the opposite. As was pointed out, if you're braking really hard, there's not enough weight left on the rear wheel to make it useful.
I personally rely on my front 99% of the time. I use both brakes if I have to do a panic stop, but my brake lever is set such that I'd have a real hard time locking my rear. I use the rear brake on gravel on the street, or if I've run off the track onto the grass. Otherwise, it's all the front brakes, baby!

[ZX10R_DADDY]

IF that is true, then you are riding too hard on the street and you should sell your bike and stop riding b/c you are ruining it for the rest of us.

That has gotta be one of the most pompus and pious assbite responses yet.
Where, pray tell is most riding done?
Take my statements of no track/class in context, too. I don't claim to be faster or better than anyone here, but I bet I've had fewer get offs than most. There has gotta be a reason for that.

Heavy dee, I gotta say one more time what a fuk of a thing to say.
Pisses me off that I see you with about 2 grand worth of posts at 27 years old, with a head like that, and being just a twinkle in daddy's eyes while I was having a blast on my 750 SuperSport. Fukin-a-douche-bag

BTW, you got capacity in your pea brain to eat crow the next time you let your little 600 cat outa the bag????


"Heat em' up........!"