Whose fault is it?

RPinOZ · 04-27-2005, 12:25 AM

I read an article in Two Wheels by a journalist called Kash.
It discusses the issue of responsibility in the case of bike vs car accidents.
His assertion is that while the car owner is often legally at fault, if you are on a bike you should be more defensive and that most accidents could have been avoided if the biker had been riding more defensively and we should take more responsibility over our own safety. What say?

bwhip · 04-27-2005, 12:31 AM

I would agree that many motorcycle/car crashes could be avoided if the cyclist were more conscientious, but not necessarily most. There is no question that the typical cage driver should be much more conscientious of the potential of motorcycles out on the road.

Getsome · 04-27-2005, 12:34 AM

option 4- Fukkin cagers need to pay more attention to what is around them in most cases. So I always ride with option 2 but most people in cars need to wake the hell up and see what is going on around them.

Can't tell how many times I have almost been merged in to because some idiot is on their cell phone or talking to a passanger or enjoying the scenery instead of watching what the hell they are doing.

RPinOZ · 04-27-2005, 12:39 AM

Quote:

Originally Posted by Getsome

option 4- Fukkin cagers need to pay more attention to what is around them in most cases. So I always ride with option 2 but most people in cars need to wake the hell up and see what is going on around them.

Can't tell how many times I have almost been merged in to because some idiot is on their cell phone or talking to a passanger or enjoying the scenery instead of watching what the hell they are doing.

Can't argue with any of that. I still ride according to option 2 but I'd like the law to book more of dickheads you describe.

Scout · 04-27-2005, 1:20 AM

Is the article on line somewhere? Can you link to it??

RPinOZ · 04-27-2005, 2:51 AM

Quote:

Originally Posted by Scout

Is the article on line somewhere? Can you link to it??

Two Wheels is an Australian bike rag. This is as close as I can find but they don't put the articles on line.

The Sook · 04-27-2005, 2:54 AM

The guy at Honda's riding school (Duncan McCrae) told me one day, it's ok for you to say "he was in the wrong" but does that help you out if you're dead? You HAVE to ride like option 2. Once you avoid the stupidity, THEN kick doors in, rip windscreen wiper blades off the thing etc etc, but no use riding around with the law protecting you while you're in a body bag.

While we all say "Cagers drive around watching/thinking about/doing anything else besides what they should be doing, in my mind, if you get swiped by a car? You are guilty of exactly the same ****.

Scout · 04-27-2005, 4:51 AM

I agree with defensive riding, in an offensive (or aggressive) way. In California, the majority of motorcycle accidents are single vehicle (the bike), which leads me to believe we're our own worst enemy.

I just cringe when someone in the moto-press makes statements like "...that most accidents could have been avoided if the biker had been riding more defensively..." because of the way it may be interpreted by the non-motorcyclist..

ND4SPD · 04-27-2005, 8:05 AM

Quote:

Originally Posted by Getsome

option 4- Fukkin cagers need to pay more attention to what is around them in most cases. So I always ride with option 2 but most people in cars need to wake the hell up and see what is going on around them.

Can't tell how many times I have almost been merged in to because some idiot is on their cell phone or talking to a passanger or enjoying the scenery instead of watching what the hell they are doing.

Just yesterday I was driving home in rush hour in the middle lane. There was this white Matrix in the "fast lane" driving about 45-50mph; about 5mph slower than my lane and the "slow lane". It was a few car lengths ahead when I saw the car swerve and nearly hit the concrete wall. Eventually I got up next to the car and lo and behold...asshat of a woman putting a pencil to her eye doing her makeup!

I had to control myself to not swerve at her and put her into the wall. Let's put aside the fact that you're on the freeway in rush hour traffic and you should be a little more attentive to your driving....let's just think about this for a second. You're DRIVING at (near)highway speeds and you're putting a sharp object within millimeters of your eye. What happens if you hit a pothole? Does anyone have any common sense left?

SuperDave · 04-27-2005, 8:13 AM

Funny this thread should come up. Here's the other side of the coin.

My brother (in Florida) just told me that him and his buddy were pulling out of Walmart around 10:00pm (his buddy was driving). They (according to his story) looked for oncoming traffic and proceeded to pull onto the main road. They went a short distance when they heard a 'thump'. They stopped the vehicle and stepped out to find a Harley (older, beat up bike) down behind them.

Now the rider was wearing no helmet (his prerogative), didn't have his license on him (?) and was wearing dark SUNGLASSES, oh, and temporary tags 10 days old! He was helped by my brother and his friend and he was standing up checking out his bike when the Police and ambulance arrived. The cop, apparentlly unsure of who to cite due to no skid marks, cited my brother's friend. Wreckless Op or failure to yield (can't remember which).

My brother's buddy then gets a call that he's being sued by the rider, and will probably win. That sucks.

"I wear my sunglasses at night"

Chain · 04-27-2005, 8:31 AM

Interesting post.

We can cite the fact that in most car-bike fatalities the cager is a fault until the cows come home. Doesn't make us any less dead when they hit us.

Our sport is, like it or not, dangerous. It's our duty to ourselves to be extra vigilant and take extra "responsibility" for those around us, even the inattentive or sometimes careless cage pilots.

sheepofblue · 04-27-2005, 10:16 AM

The superior vehicle ALWAYS has the right of way. Anyone that fails to understand this will be crushed.

Kuss929 · 04-27-2005, 10:44 AM

Its almost 6 of one half a dozen to the other.
Cage drivers are oblivious to their suroundings but riders are pushing the speed limit (not always but I have not seen to many bikes getting passed out on the roads).
Mixing the two is like having Jessica Simpson at a MENSA meeting. Nothing good can come of it.

EDDIE110171 · 04-27-2005, 10:56 AM

Quote:

Originally Posted by bwhip

I would agree that many motorcycle/car crashes could be avoided if the cyclist were more conscientious, but not necessarily most. There is no question that the typical cage driver should be much more conscientious of the potential of motorcycles out on the road.

+1, Remember the law can't protect you if your dead.

CVegas · 04-27-2005, 11:57 AM

You always hear horror stories about some dumb 16 year old girl who just got her license crossing the double yellow and killing 2 motorcyclists, and they don't even give her a ticket. 'oh but she has to live with guilt' F*ck that at least she gets to live. They really should do something, but in the end it was just an accident, and it happens. Its hard to remain calm in situations, but I just don't like the idea of the law having even more control over things.

luvtolean · 04-27-2005, 4:47 PM

Quote:

Originally Posted by The Sook

The guy at Honda's riding school (Duncan McCrae) told me one day, it's ok for you to say "he was in the wrong" but does that help you out if you're dead? You HAVE to ride like option 2. Once you avoid the stupidity, THEN kick doors in, rip windscreen wiper blades off the thing etc etc, but no use riding around with the law protecting you while you're in a body bag.

Yep

Quote:

Originally Posted by Scout

I just cringe when someone in the moto-press makes statements like "...that most accidents could have been avoided if the biker had been riding more defensively..." because of the way it may be interpreted by the non-motorcyclist..

And yep.

You gotta be better on the bike, because your family is the one who wins if you get killed by a red light running cage. But it's not something to say aloud as some bored politician might find this info and seize on an opportunity to get his name in the papers.

RPinOZ · 04-27-2005, 7:10 PM

Quote:

Originally Posted by The Sook

The guy at Honda's riding school (Duncan McCrae) told me one day, it's ok for you to say "he was in the wrong" but does that help you out if you're dead?

Yep it's not who's right. Its who's left.

Chrome Dome · 04-27-2005, 8:36 PM

Excellent! I was the first to not give a schlitz

Whippet Goode · 04-28-2005, 12:46 PM

Reality check: it does no one any good to be leaglly or morally correct and wind up in the hospital or worse... ... ...

If some old bag in a Detroit Boat runs a stop sign 'cuz she's late to the bingo parlor, or some "soccor mom" side-swipes you into oblivion 'cuz she's yacking on the cell phone, or a 17 year old is racing his buddy in some slammed rice racer by the high school then proceeds to run a traffic light @ 80mph and T-bones you, it will make no difference if they were breaking the motor code. Tuff $#!T - you're dead. Bye-bye, baby!

They can be wrong 'til the cows come home, but the fact of the matter it does you the motorcyclist no good. Think about it. Size makes right, and those cages are a hell of a lot bigger than us

.

I used to be a self righteous young biker; looking for a good reasom to bunt some cager's mirror off because they wronged my rights whilst riding. Flip the piec-o-$h!t off, yell, rank: what good did it do me? Had a couple of people tailgate me, flip me off, rant right back at me - all to no avail.

So now I ride like I'm invisible - even if they are looking right at me - I presume they do not see me. I wave people on instead of insisting on MY Rights. Better to get the cagers away from me than to get in a p!$$ing contest. I use my small size to my advantage. I never pull up behind a car right in the middle of that car, instead I'm off to one side - just in case the car coming up from the rear doesn't see me. That way I can pull up between the cars and let someone else get rear ended.

The list goes on. I suggest everyone read:

http://www.micapeak.com/info/thepace.html

Cheers

nomad · 04-28-2005, 7:36 PM

As you've read above. We all take great caution when riding. I would think that most riders take good defensive actions most of the time. So from that perspective, I voted in the minority above stating my opinion that I drive defensively and take great care of my safety already so other motorists should also do the same and watch out for me.

Of course the bigger car wins. That's just common sense and ultimately we are responsible for our own health, but I think many (most?) accidents that involve motorists are either riders doing stupid things (fully aware they are stupid) or the car driver's lack of awareness/care. Stupid riders aren't in the discussion so the lazy drivers need to take more care of my life. I do.

Oldskool · 05-02-2005, 9:22 PM

I happen to work as an insurance adjuster (auto lines)...deal with it all the time. Guys in my line that dont ride tend to think the motorcyle rider is at fault. That's if it's a judgement call mind you. Me I tend to treat the guy on the bike the same as I would a guy in a car.

Bottom line there is no cut and dry answer...just a persons prejudices they bring to every job.