suspension or damper?

[DaveM]

Hmmmm what to do? What would you do if you could get either one? Would you have Dan Kyle work his magic on the front forks or would you get a damper? Thats the dilemma, I am in now can only afford one right now.
Oh yeah for a 929

[Custom900]

What are you trying to achieve?

To be honest the best mod would be a damper first and then suspension mods.

[sheepofblue]

Damper is a handling and safety device it would win for me.

[ichsnoo]

Hi DaveM,

I have just had race tech gold valves and new springs put in the front of my 954. The transformation of having a professional race suspension tuner do your front forks is absolutely amazing.

If I had the extra cash right now I would have also done the rear end at the same time.

I had bought a Scotts radial steering damper and installed it months ago, but that only keeps me a bit safer during the tank slapper moments. Having your suspension rebuilt correctly is where it is all at. Then depending on how agressively you ride you may then buy a steering damper. The only time I was getting tank slappers before the suspension upgrade was when I was lifting the front slightly out of very fast corners - approx 120 - 150kms/h.

Hope this helps.

Dave

[ichsnoo]

Hey DaveM,

I should have mentioned - the 954 front spring rate is remowned for being incredibly under sprung. I dont know if this is the case with the 929. So maybe dabbling with the correct settings on your existing units is the first thing to try. But if you have already been through that process (as I have) and you are still not happy with the results - then spend your cash on a fork rebuild. YOU WONT REGRET IT.

Dave

[ND4SPD]

Get a damper first. Suspension work won't help you avoid a tankslapper. If you get into a bad enough tankslapper and wreck your bike, all the money you just put into your suspension is out the window and more.

[southpark460]

with the 929, get a damper for sure... Then get the suspension work. They're closely related, but the damper is a necessity

[clutchslip]

Damper
5 to 1 for the damper.

The Scott's was perfect on my 929. It really made a huge difference. I highly recommend it.

[DaveM]

Good thing I asked at least this saves me a little cash for now
Looks like the damper is winning all very good replies I must say. Suspension will be DONE eventually but looks like I will have to go with a damper first.

ND4 kinda put it in perspective

Thanks again.

[Ivo]

The damper is highly overrated. If you are thinking of doing trackdays, go for the suspension mods first. I have run my 929 with and without a damper. I like it a lot better without. It is a lot easier to transition from turn to turn without one and I never felt a tankslapper that caused me much of a scare. What I would want is something that would work for me better. Fit me and make me more comfortable with going on the bike and doing what I want to do with it. Dampers are dirty fixes. They correct for mistakes you make. It is far better learning how to modulate your throttle and get a better feel of your bike than throw something that will at times completely throw it out.

[Ivo]

Sorry for the last sentence. I wanted to say... Than throwing something on your bike like a steering damper that will completely get rid of the learning it takes to smooth out your throttle delivery to get the most out of your bike.

[HondaGalToo]

Ok, I'm puzzled. You shouldn't even know you have a steering damper on your bike, unless you have it cranked up too hard. I don't even know mine's on, as it should be. But it's there if I need it. You can have the smoothest throttle technique in the world, but if you hit a ripple it could give you a wobble.

[smoothrideronli]

Originally Posted by Ivo The damper is highly overrated. If you are thinking of doing trackdays, go for the suspension mods first. I have run my 929 with and without a damper. I like it a lot better without. It is a lot easier to transition from turn to turn without one and I never felt a tankslapper that caused me much of a scare. What I would want is something that would work for me better. Fit me and make me more comfortable with going on the bike and doing what I want to do with it. Dampers are dirty fixes. They correct for mistakes you make. It is far better learning how to modulate your throttle and get a better feel of your bike than throw something that will at times completely throw it out.

I have to strongly disagree...as HondaGal says you shouldnt notice your steering damper except maybe at a walking pace...I dont understand how your steering damper effects your transition from side to side. A steering damper is a safety device that should be on your bike ASAP. My two cents.

[southpark460]

Originally Posted by smoothrideronli I have to strongly disagree...as HondaGal says you shouldnt notice your steering damper except maybe at a walking pace...I dont understand how your steering damper effects your transition from side to side. A steering damper is a safety device that should be on your bike ASAP. My two cents.

Seriously, the geometry of the 929 makes for a very unstable front end. Get an adjustable damper and learn how to use it. Shy away from the dampeners though... I heard they effect your transition from side to side.

[Nickelii]

I have had such a bad slapper w/o a dampner that it ripped the bars out of my hands and onto the tank I go (switching from 2nd to 3rd). I only ride on the track and have lots of head shake even with it. I have had my forks done as well and it is not even a choice for me, get the dampner IMO. But the stock springs blow even for a 125lb rider like myself, way too soft. I would for sure do both, but safety is always my first priority.

[Quinc]

is any damper better then no damper? do you really need a 300-400$ one or do they all pretty much work the same?

[Ivo]

Hmmm.... It's interesting some have had such a bad problem with the 929 and head shake. I've experienced only mild shakes even when pushing the bike harder. I wonder if it might be in part due to my suspension which have stiffer springs and a revalved shock for my weight, 195lbs.? I was only speaking for myself and my experiences, sorry if it sounded as a matter of fact.

[schnogg]

Originally Posted by Ivo Hmmm.... It's interesting some have had such a bad problem with the 929 and head shake. I've experienced only mild shakes even when pushing the bike harder. I wonder if it might be in part due to my suspension which have stiffer springs and a revalved shock for my weight, 195lbs.? I was only speaking for myself and my experiences, sorry if it sounded as a matter of fact.

Nicely stated

I'm really curious too regarding the previous question about the marginal utility of wikked expensive dampeners. I want to get one that does the job well, but I don't want a Scotts if all dampeners are created equal.
erm... is it "damper" or "dampener" or is it "Shut up and buy the Scotts"

[Nickelii]

It's dampner, I think... I also think that some probably are better constructed (Ohlins vs. Daytona)then others and have more adjustability. But I believe that they all function the same way. I love the Scotts, very nice and easy to pull on and off the bike, nice look, lots of adjustability. But those are my .02

[tigerblade]

Originally Posted by schnogg is it "damper" or "dampener" or is it "Shut up and buy the Scotts"

Damper. No "n" in the word.

[sheepofblue]

Originally Posted by schnogg Nicely stated I'm really curious too regarding the previous question about the marginal utility of wikked expensive dampeners. I want to get one that does the job well, but I don't want a Scotts if all dampeners are created equal. erm... is it "damper" or "dampener" or is it "Shut up and buy the Scotts"

The Scotts has more adjustability than a GPR in the rotary type. The linear type I would want an Ohlins with the difference being the mount manufacturer.

Also I would put a damper on even a stable bike. My RC is very stable and many say it does not need one but I will be ordering a Scotts for it soon. I would rather have a damper that I can turn down than not have one putting me down.

[MetallicCarrot]

I've heard of Scott's going 40k miles without needing a rebuild. Something to consider for the price/ value. An Ohlins will have been rebuilt 4x by then from what I've heard.

I had an Ohlins on my 636, but have a Scott's on my 954. The Ohlins was WAY more trick, but there's little difference in effectiveness, if any.

[MetallicCarrot]

D'oh. By the way, definately get the damper and use Abtech's suspension set-up on the 929. It tracks like a muhfuh'en train for street / foothill / 8/10ths riding. RIDICULOUS improvement over stock. Then do the damper and you'll feel like a god on your 929.

[BDA116]

Ohlins makes the dampers Scotts markets and sells in the U.S..............for their designed and intended purposes, dirtbikes. They had them on the market for dirtbikes years before they sold Scotts the marketing rights, Ohlins just had no intention of selling them as street bike dampers.
Their recommended rebuild frequency is the same.
How many top-tier Ohlins road race teams use the rotary Ohlins - better known as Scotts here? Oh yeah, none.

[MetallicCarrot]

Originally Posted by abtech Although there are several threads and discussions on this topic, I will try and give you the short course. The front springs on the 929 are too soft and the rear spring is too stiff regardless of your weight (unless it's 300 lbs and you ride on the passenger seat). This being the case, the normal "sag" settings don't really apply for the 929 with stock suspension. My first recommendation is to crank both the compression and rebound damping adjusters all of the way counterclockwise (carefully, as they are reasonably fragile). Then find the appropriate wrench and crank the front preload adjusters all of the way in (to the top line). Take both the compression and rebound adjusters on the shock and back them out as well. Then crank the preload adjuster to full soft (spring open as much as possible). Now get your gear on and have someone help you pick up the bike at the bars until the front wheel is almost off the ground. Measure the distance from the upper dust cap to the bottom piece on the fork leg (the exposed inner tube). Write this down. Now pick the bike up from the rear subframe so that the shock fully extends and measure between the axle and a fixed point on the tail section. Write this down. Now get on the bike and bounce it a few times so the suspension isn't stuck at any particular point, and with your friend holding the bike upright sit on the bike (feet on the pegs etc.) in your normal riding position. Have the friend (or a convenient third party) measure both of these distances again with you on the bike. If the difference between the first and second reading on the front is more than 1.4" (I would be surprised if it is), then crank out the preload adjuster until it is between 1.25" and 1.4". If it is less than 1.125" then you will have to wait until you buy new springs to "really" set up the front end, so just leave the preload dialed all of the way in on the forks. On the rear, the opposite is true, as you will probably never get the difference between the readings to more than .75" if you weigh 165 lbs. If this is the case, then leave the preload all the way out on the rear and start saving for a new shock. Once you have performed all of the above, then turn both the compression and rebound screws on the forks in all the way and then back out to 1.5 turns from fully tight. On the rear, turn the screws in 1.75 turns in from being fully out (which they should already be). This is a starting point for compression and rebound. If you go to the Foxracingshox.com site and hunt around, you will find their trouble-shooting list for fine tuning the compression and rebound for both front and rear. Don't attempt to change the sag once you have it set unless you change the springs or replace the shock, as this is the baseline that all other adjustments need to be made from. Edited by - abtech on 6/1/01 11:18:47 AM

Look at the date. I have went through 3 PC's since then, 5 929's, a 954, and this is the single more important information I've ever held on to. Don't want to sound like a fanboy, but everyone that performs this set-up should thank / add-rep to abtech. I'd ridden a previously-enjoyed (used) 929 that had been set up and I was spoiled by it. When I bought a new 929 off the showroom floor, I wondered wtf the problem was. I used this set-up and it "fixed" the bike. I had ridden all these years without knowing the importance of set-up, now I won't own a bike without fiddling. It totally blew my mind. To be honest, I'm disappointed in my Traxxion / Penske set-up compared to the front-end feedback on my old 929. I will not rest until it's fixed tweaked though (thanks abtech and CBRBob!) , but for the money, the damper is the way to go!

[MetallicCarrot]

Originally Posted by BDA116 Ohlins makes the dampers Scotts markets and sells in the U.S..............for their designed and intended purposes, dirtbikes. They had them on the market for dirtbikes years before they sold Scotts the marketing rights, Ohlins just had no intention of selling them as street bike dampers. Their recommended rebuild frequency is the same. How many top-tier Ohlins road race teams use the rotary Ohlins - better known as Scotts here? Oh yeah, none.

Agreed. But it works ok for the street. Let's face it, not many on here are Jake Zemke, Miguel DuHamel or Mat Mladin. And just because their "recommended rebuild frequency" is the same, does not mean that the required rebuild frequency will be the same. I've seen with my own eyes an Ohlins leaking, never seen that out of a Scott's, but admittedly, could have been the rider, and I'm definately not saying that a Scott's won't leak.

Like I said, the Ohlins is the hot-****. But my bike came with a Scott's, so I'm digging it for now.

[DaveM]

Originally Posted by MetallicCarrot Look at the date. I have went through 3 PC's since then, 5 929's, a 954, and this is the single more important information I've ever held on to. Don't want to sound like a fanboy, but everyone that performs this set-up should thank / add-rep to abtech. I'd ridden a previously-enjoyed (used) 929 that had been set up and I was spoiled by it. When I bought a new 929 off the showroom floor, I wondered wtf the problem was. I used this set-up and it "fixed" the bike. I had ridden all these years without knowing the importance of set-up, now I won't own a bike without fiddling. It totally blew my mind. To be honest, I'm disappointed in my Traxxion / Penske set-up compared to the front-end feedback on my old 929. I will not rest until it's fixed tweaked though (thanks abtech and CBRBob!) , but for the money, the damper is the way to go!

Thanks Carrot
Did you have anything done to your forks or were they stock just set up like this?

[MetallicCarrot]

Totally stock. Felt awesome on the street with a 195lb rider. So, maybe they were too soft for the track, whatever, I wasn't riding like Kurtis Roberts in '00 when he won FX. Pretty damn close to perfect for me for the street.

[pirate929]

A steering damper shouldn't be necessary if you have your suspension tuned correctly. Just tune your suspension and you won't need the damper.

[Custom900]

Originally Posted by pirate929 A steering damper shouldn't be necessary if you have your suspension tuned correctly. Just tune your suspension and you won't need the damper.

No one needs a damper, until the tankslapper occurs. It's kinda like your insurance policy. All that money seems to ba wasted, until you find a bill that you wouldn't be able to pay for without assistance from the policy that you have. Take for instance a heart attack. It would suck to have to pay for a triple by-pass on your own.
It would suck to hit a Lamborghini with your Toyota, total it out, and then have to pay for both vehicles.
It would suck to have a tank-slapper throw you from your bike and whip you because you didn't think you needed a damper.