Fiberglass lay up

*Fastrr* · 03-08-2007, 11:33 PM

Anyone made parts for bikes from fiberglass/resin ? I'm getting ready to make a seat cowl for a 93-95 900RR. Now I just have to find a local supply company that sells the gel-coat. Think an automotive paint supply store would sell gel-coat?

Also if you do or have done lay up work is there an inexpensive store to buy the supplies from? Also post what weight of cloth you used if applicable

.... and pictures if you have them! Thanks

I'm going to keep at it after the first one and try and start making seat cowls to sell at a later time. My day job sucks. LOL.

Hammer · 03-10-2007, 12:13 AM

It's harder that it looks.

HondaForLife954 · 03-10-2007, 12:38 AM

I have made a Formula SAE race car out of carbonfiber prepreg but before we made the final part we made molds using hand lay-up methods and its messy and sucks. VERY itchy too. I now work with thermoplastic/carbon fiber and its much easier to work with.

But on to your question. There are many places that sell this stuff but it is pricey for the materials. A good website is fibreglast.com. They will have everything you need. They have this carbon/red kevlar 2x2 twill weave i was going to get and make a tire hugger with it off my oem one but for a yard of it is 60 bucks, but it looks cool. Ill keep you posted on how i do it. They do have fiberglass that is dyed black or sliver which is also cheaper than using carbon and no one will ever tell the difference.

It is a lot of work to do it right and have a good part. I also recomend that you vacuum bag it for a better look. Getting a resin that cures in a few hours would be best too. If you want Ill post pictures of my rear tire hugger as soon as i start it.

One more thing a good way to make a tool is to use plaster(cheap and durable). You do have to prep the mold tool. Which is another step you dont want to skip any corners for a good looking part.

Hope this has answered a few questions. If you have more specific ones ask me and ill do my best to answer them. But fibreglast should help answer most of them.

HondaForLife954 · 03-10-2007, 12:40 AM

It might be better to just buy one

*Fastrr* · 03-11-2007, 1:45 AM

I was considering making some other parts from fiberglass also. I did see that fiberglast website a few days ago, very helpful actually as they give how-to instructions.

I just about finished the mold today for the rear cowl cover. It was hard and laborsome to acomplish. The mold looks great and is smooth as a baby's butt. The part may not come out perfect, but I'm willing to keep at it until i get it perfect.
Vacuum bag? how do you do that? I did see the gel coat is like $25 a quart! that might do two parts if i'm lucky?

What can I use as a mold-release agent? For the type of mold it is I won't be gelcoating the side the release agent is applied to.

*Fastrr* · 03-11-2007, 1:46 AM

Check eBay for carbon fiber sheet material. I've seen rolls and remnants on there before. cheaper than $60.

Hammer · 03-11-2007, 10:13 AM

Quote:

Originally Posted by Fastrr

What can I use as a mold-release agent? For the type of mold it is I won't be gelcoating the side the release agent is applied to.

If you can find it we used to use a liquid called PVA, if not you can try Johnson's paste wax to coat the mold before laying the glass down.

HondaForLife954 · 03-11-2007, 11:22 AM

Fiberglast sells wax's that should work fine for a release agent but make sure to apply a few coats and buff, its just like putting car wax on.

With the gel-coat you don't need a lot on the surface just enough, like a 1/16 of an inch would work fine.

Look up airtechonline.com they talk about vacuum bagging. But what it does is produces a much better looking part and keeps everything in place as it cures. If this makes sense to you it consolidates the fibers together and pushes out extra resin. since this is not getting cured in a oven like most composites these days you can use a 4mill bagging from home depot that you would use for a moister barrier. It works well just don't poke a hole in it. but Vacuum bagging supply's are expensive and if you plan on making lots of parts that really look good and want to sell them i recommend doing it.

PS get yourself a good pair of scissors

*Fastrr* · 03-11-2007, 11:10 PM

I may consider doing that vacuum bag trick. I got a new pair of siscors around here somewhere

HondaForLife954 · 03-12-2007, 9:48 AM

If you got pics id like to see your progress

*Fastrr* · 03-12-2007, 8:59 PM

Yeah, I have to take a photo of the mold I made, the type of mold it is it looks identical to what the finished product will look like, it even fits on the bike like a solo cowl. Gotta reboot this POS computer so i can upload the photo from my POS digital camera. LOL.

HondaForLife954 · 03-12-2007, 9:14 PM

What did you use to make the mold? Did you spray it with any paint?

*Fastrr* · 03-12-2007, 9:38 PM

You can use almost anything that is shapeable for the mold, and so it is not too flexible and holds its shape.

Sounds funny but i used styrofoam, layers with aluminum tape, followed by bondo. The mold was then primered with a flexible primer surfacer for autobody work, then i'll paint it gloss black. This pic here is just spot putty filling in small surface blemishes on the mold. I'll sand that down before paint. I will probably be lucky to make two or three cowls from this fragile mold.

HondaForLife954 · 03-12-2007, 11:01 PM

Here are a few pics of my race car a built. What we did was, we used a cnc tool to make our mold that has a gel coat on it to give the final surface a very smooth look. but the smoothness comes from how well we preped the tool before we made the mold. then we made the part form the tool. i didnt have any good vacuum baggin shots but you might get the picture.

From what i see the inside of your final part with show the fibers. so i assume you are going to paint the outside.

I am going to start my little project this weekend so ill make sure to take plenty of pics.

hope you like my unfinished race car

HondaForLife954 · 03-12-2007, 11:09 PM

Here is the mold we made from our tool.

HondaForLife954 · 03-12-2007, 11:10 PM

sorry wrong pic

HondaForLife954 · 03-12-2007, 11:11 PM

here is the mold

*Fastrr* · 03-13-2007, 7:19 PM

Very cool racecar body! I want one! Is this a college project for engineering class?

Back to my little cowl project.. yep the fibers will show on the bottom, I'm just going to leave the resin finish.. maybe paint it or something? I care mostly about the top part that gets seen.

*Fastrr* · 03-13-2007, 10:46 PM

Here is the finished mold. Next time, if i continue to do this type of work, the mold/shape will be more complex. I made this one basically flat on top for ease of making. Now on the Foruma SAE body what tools did you use to lay up the carbon fiber? ( ei: roller, paint brush, spray gun)?

HondaForLife954 · 03-14-2007, 12:24 AM

Well the mold that you see was made up using what people call a "wet lay-up" which you are doing with your cowling. The finished chassis that you see is made out of aerospace grade carbon fiber pre-preg supplied by Toray, which is some of the highest quality material you can buy. but we had a 15000$$ roll donated. And yes this was a college project last year, since then i graduated and dont part take in it any more. Using prepreg the resin is already mixed in the fibers and is kept in a freezer. we laid it up by hand. really no tools involved just a good pair of scissors. there are a couple of draw backs with it, is that to cure the part it must go through a heat cycle and must be vacuumed bagged. on the other hand you dont get all messy

. which is a huge plus!!

And to clarify one more thing.... the car you see is not actually just the body its the entire car itself. NO steel tubbing anywhere to be found on that. total weight was around 60lbs i think but i really cant remember.

And your tool looks great but the better surface will be on the inside not the out side.

gt702 · 03-14-2007, 3:02 PM

Quote:

Originally Posted by HondaForLife954

And your tool looks great but the better surface will be on the inside not the out side.

Yep, the smooth surface is the one against the mold. You might want to make a mold of your mold and use that to lay-up your finished part.

Good luck. It looks like a good first project to get your feet wet.

*Fastrr* · 03-15-2007, 1:21 AM

I guess i thought the mold should be really smooth so it could be waxed and free easily once dried. Mold wasn't perfect anyhow, but it worked well. I did the lay up this evening and it came out nice. The top surface is kinda bumpy but i'm thinking of putting on another layer of resin then once dry, block sanding that smooth. Think that will work since it's the side that matters? I also will need to reinforce the inside sides of the cowl as they are too thin with only two layers of cloth at present. The middle and front portion has a full 3 layers of cloth. I was impressed with how easy it was to lay up the part.

I have another question, what's the best way to build up the fiberglass material to make 4 mounting bosses on the backside of the part? The mounting bosses need to be built up to about 1.5 inches high, so there is something there to bolt the seat hinge to.

HondaForLife954 · 03-15-2007, 9:53 AM

send pics!! with mounting sometimes you can but inserts before the resin drys. also you can buy AL and make your own inserts and just put them where you need and add more epoxy/resin around them. make sure you prep both surfaces metal and part. have them fix in place with a jig and let dry.

do you know what you could do, is build a frame for the cowling you just made and use that as your new mold now. it would last much longer and now you have the smooth side of your final part on the outside like you wanted. no extra sanding and resin.

gt702 · 03-15-2007, 12:10 PM

Quote:

Originally Posted by HondaForLife954

do you know what you could do, is build a frame for the cowling you just made and use that as your new mold now. it would last much longer and now you have the smooth side of your final part on the outside like you wanted. no extra sanding and resin.

Especially since you thought it was easy to layup the glass. Build a frame to support it, with locating points for your tabs, and build them in. Then you can get the part as thick as you want on the inside without affecting the outside.

On the aluminum tabs/inserts, be sure to lightly sand/buff the part that will be molded in just before molding. Aluminum builds an oxide layer quickly and the resin doesn't to stick to it. Freshly cleaned, it sticks pretty good.

*Fastrr* · 03-15-2007, 8:29 PM

Excellent information guys! That's just what i was looking for. I can buy or machine some spacers out of aluminum, and scuff them up real good, then clean them with some acetone before setting them into the part.

Also on the backside of the part I need a latch piece, it's about 1/8 thick and is pointed. That is the piece that pushes down into the latch/lock mechanism on the motorcycle subframe and holds it down. Is it ok to use steel for that piece? Will just resin be enough to hold these added metal parts in place, or should i wrap small pieces of fiberglass around them too? On the latch piece, I'm kind of fearful that the aluminum would not take well to the wear over time. What do you think?

I went to Fibreglast forum but nobody there has answered my question.

Back to the hinge mounts that need to have female threads. I'll show you what I was going to use. Of course i want to do this the best way and if that means aluminum is best that is what i will use. Well what i was going to use is a steel insert called a T-nut. It's mainly use is for particle board or plywood inserts. On wood you drill the accordingly right size hole then use a hammer to pound the three spiked metal teeth into the wood.

HondaForLife954 · 03-15-2007, 9:43 PM

Wrapping extra wetted out fiberglass wont hurt it will probably help. As for the inserts really any thing is ussable up just make sure to scuff them up and clean very well with 'ass'atone. As for wear over time.....what bike are you making this for...bc its probably 80% aluminum i mean the frame and everything else and how long have you had it??? if you are worried about wear get a 6000 or 7000 series piece of al. check McMasters.com they have everything.

*Fastrr* · 03-15-2007, 11:14 PM

I'm not concerned about the aluminum inserts, just the striker that rubs against a steel lock-latch. On the factory seat the striker is made of steel. Yep McMaster Carr has everything - awesome for any hardware a person may need and machine shop stuff. But if you think aluminum will do the job that's good too, i've got some 6061T6 here that is the right dimensions.

I pulled the part free from the mold today, after trimming the excess edges off the part. Darn mold stuck to the part like glue LOL @ myself. I didn't use carnuba wax or similar... i used Meguires fast wax spray. I know - you can yell at me for it

The funny thing is the part that stayed attached to the mold is ok and actually strengthened it some. It's the green fiberglass bondo stuff and the primer and paint i used on the mold. All told about .010-015 thick and it's stuck like cement so it shouldn't seperate. I scuffed up the inside of the part with some 80 grit sandpaper real good. I'm going to lay two more layers of fiberglass cloth and resin because the part did not come out thick enough using three layers originally. This has REALLY been a JOB and a half! Now i know what not to make my tool/molds from haha.