[.OrgOwner]

Sadly I am sure this happens and probably more often than it should.

Joe buyer walks into the local dealership looking to buy a new bike. Joe has limited experience on bikes, a minibike as a kid and dual purpose 250 for daily commuting a few years back is the total extent of his experience. Joe has maintained his licence despite not having a bike for a few years and the law allows him to ride any bike he can afford to throw a leg over. A few of his work friends are running around on 1000's and doing weekend rdes and so with some promting from his buddies Joe is pretty much convinced he needs a quick bike to keep up with the boys. The sales guy spots Joe and after a few quick questions determines that he has an easy sale and of course it's close to the end of the month and his boss has been riding him over his sales figures, our sales guy decides Joe needs a 1000 and stiches him up pretty quickly on a new CBR1000 and some inhouse finance. Joe is happy, the sales guy is happy, the dealer principal is happy. Joes first outing with his riding buddies ends in disaster when Joe runs way too hard into a corner, hits a tree and is killed instantly.

Who is to blame here?

Joe for being an idiot and not doing his research and buying a bike way beyond his ability?

The sales guy? For putting his own interests ahead of the welfare of a customer.

The dealer principal for allowing it to happen?

The law? Does the system offer enough checks to ensure high perfomance bikes don't end up in the wrong hands?

Joes riding friends for not getting involved with the purchase process and guiding Joe onto a smaller safer machine?

All of the above?

The question here is that as bikes get faster and better is there anything more that can or should be done to protect the inexperienced rider?

[River-pirate]

Joe and the Law.
Joe, because he did not have the respect for bikes that he should have. Sometimes we need to swallow our pride and not be so insecure about what others may think when we`re riding around on a lesser machine. He bought the bigger bike to be cool and present himself as something he is not.
The Law, because they have s**t the bed on adopting standards that have been used in other parts of the planet. There should be a limit and a scale for which one level has to be satisfied before another can be reached. My Father made sure of this for me.
It all boils down to personal choices. The dealers are running a business. They can make suggestions, but its up to Joe to make the decision. If Joe wrecks his bike or kills himself, the dealer isn`t to blame.
I would also like to add Joes buddies to the list. Your peers and riding partners should help you out and educate you.

My two cents.

[Phadreus]

Originally Posted by .OrgOwner

The question here is that as bikes get faster and better is there anything more that can or should be done to protect the inexperienced rider?

I would like to see the Gov add a bunch of runnout and remove all the guardrails on the outside of all turns. Those air fenses seem to work nicely too, install some of them. Or, if it would be easier; create roads designed only for high speed motorcyclists and don't let the cars and trucks, tractors or Harleys on them, they're all too slow. Shall we start a petition?

Someday when I have my own planet to rule, things will be different.

[Phadreus]

When I bought my 954, the Sales Drone sat with me and ask me all about my riding experience. In the end, he told me if this was going to be my first bike, the he wouldn't have sold it to me; I would have had to work with another salesman. That was pretty cool.

It seems you've hit on some good points here Craig. Maybe there needs to be a better system of "checks and balances" in place. But even as I say this, from the dealers perspective, they are out to sell bikes as that is their business. They probably wouldn't be too willing to volunteer to be a part of strict regulations or some sort of screening process to insure they are not putting fast bikes in the wrong hands.

Maybe all dealerships should require all first time buyers to have to have their mom or their wife with them when they buy their first bike.

The same issues exist with firearms. Does the dealer sell a Desert Eagle 44mag as a first gun to any guy of age that has the cash? How does the dealer know the guy isn't intending on going out and committing murder with it?

The business of ethics is a tough one for sure. One of the biggest problems we (mankind) has, is that you can't legislate morality and ethics.

[trixter]

I think the title of this thread pretty much says it all... it's Joe's fault. It was HIS bad choise. I don't believe it's the government's job to protect us from ourselves - even though they already go to great lengths to try.
Bluntly put, stupid people, (or smart people who make stupid decisions) are like slow wlidebeasts on the Sarengetee (sp?) and personal damage and death are the lions. It's about personal accountability folks. You are responsible for your own decisions. The salesman "might" be trying to serve his own purposes, but isn't it up to you to spot that? Your friends "might" be trying to push you beyond your limits, but isn't that up to you to realize and ride within your abilities? (or perhaps a little farther, in an effort to improve them - but not WFO)
Wouldn't it be cool if everyone were just a little smarter sometimes?

[Twincam]

I believe it was Joe's fault.

He should be old enough to make his own decisions in life, and that one was a bad one. Yeah most people want litre bikes, but only a few of them know that they cant handle them.

The law was there for people to follow, he followed it. Just a shame he followed peoples words and was led into temptation.

Well, hopefully some younger people and maybe older will read this and learn from it.

TWINCAM

[pizzaboy]

Well after reading this, it reminded me of my friends who killed himself....it was back in 99'... he just broke up with his girl friend and moved out of this condo they bought together, so he moved in with me in my house, his girlfriend would never let him buy anything he wanted, so he decieded he was gonna get a New Beeetle or A Bike. Of course, me already have a my ZX7 at the time ,told him he should get a bike. So we went out looking and he liked the GSXR750. So he bought it , I've told him to take it easy because he was a "squid" and that bike was to much for him. He laughed at me, and I told him that he cant ride like the other because he never had a street bike and there are alot of different factors to riding(cold tires, sand in the road, cars, etc) Well he only had the bike a month or so .... so one sunday morning he told me he was going for a ride to New Hope with some other guys and if I wanted to go.I said No cuz I had to get my engagement Pic's done , when I got back I had a message on my machine. It was one of the guys that was with him(and he was a friend of mine) told me to call him right away. I did and found out my friend died.. He crashed into poll doing about 100 on the way back.
I wish we had a system where you had to earn the right to get the big bikes. Start off on a little 250 or 500, ride that for a little bit then move to a 600, then 750 , then the big boys. At least my friend could have got some experience before he got his hands on a 750.

(sorry for the rant... its been awhile since he died ) guess I dont have to got to therapy this week..

[Blackjaxx360]

Originally Posted by pizzaboy

Well after reading this, it reminded me of my friends who killed himself....it was back in 99'... he just broke up with his girl friend and moved out of this condo they bought together, so he moved in with me in my house, his girlfriend would never let him buy anything he wanted, so he decieded he was gonna get a New Beeetle or A Bike. Of course, me already have a my ZX7 at the time ,told him he should get a bike. So we went out looking and he liked the GSXR750. So he bought it , I've told him to take it easy because he was a "squid" and that bike was to much for him. He laughed at me, and I told him that he cant ride like the other because he never had a street bike and there are alot of different factors to riding(cold tires, sand in the road, cars, etc) Well he only had the bike a month or so .... so one sunday morning he told me he was going for a ride to New Hope with some other guys and if I wanted to go.I said No cuz I had to get my engagement Pic's done , when I got back I had a message on my machine. It was one of the guys that was with him(and he was a friend of mine) told me to call him right away. I did and found out my friend died.. He crashed into poll doing about 100 on the way back.
I wish we had a system where you had to earn the right to get the big bikes. Start off on a little 250 or 500, ride that for a little bit then move to a 600, then 750 , then the big boys. At least my friend could have got some experience before he got his hands on a 750.

(sorry for the rant... its been awhile since he died ) guess I dont have to got to therapy this week..

This story is all too typical. I'm sorry to hear about your friend. But do you honestly think that putting him on a 250 or a 500 would have different results? Either of those bikes can get you up to 100 mph, if not more. I've never been a fan of telling people to start out small, because in reality, a bike won't do anything unless you tell it to, even if bigger bikes are more responsive. My first street bike was a brand new 1994 Honda CBR 900RR. I worked my ass off to pay for that bike. And the insurance...eek! I was 16 at the time. Even though I've spent a few years on dirt bikes, I had no experience for that type of bike. I learned pretty quickly how dangerous that bike could be. I never laid it down or got a speeding ticket, lol, never got caught anyway. Truth of the matter is, there's no corrective action for stupidity. There isn't a rider on this or any forum that could honestly tell you that he/she has abided by the speed limit 100% of the time. Sure, we all get throttle happy, but knowing when, where, and how is what could save your life. As a rider on the street, you have to be extra-defensive. There are more cars on the road today than there was 12 years ago, and more careless people driving them (cell phone, make-up, left turns, Burger King, etc). Bottom line is, you can't teach someone how to be responsible and mature enough to know that there is always a consequence to your actions whether good or bad. The fortunate people learn that pretty quickly. Just my 2 cents. As always...ride safe.

[SpikedLemon]

The bike didn't kill Joe: his poor judgment IN THE CORNER killed him.

This could have just as easily happened on a GS500 as on a CBR1K.


If, however, the bike turned around while he was sitting on it and the bike bit him: then it'd be the bike's fault.

[jhonda41]

Originally Posted by .OrgOwner

. Joes first outing with his riding buddies ends in disaster when Joe runs way too hard into a corner, hits a tree and is killed instantly.

Its Joe's fault for not knowing how to brake properly.


btw: I object to the use of the name "Joe" as an example in this thread


-joey honda

[slickwill]

If a salesman pushed an inexperienced rider toward anything more than a Ninja 500 I would hope he would have some issues with his conscience but I still don't think it is truly his fault.

One of the problems with our society is the desire to place blame on someone else. You can ride like a moron on anything, see my signature for a list. I've told the story on here already of my 17 year old friend doing 110 on his Ninja 500 and then getting a ticket going 90 in a 35 seconds later. Luckily he hasn't had an accident but he is still an idiot. I told him that I he is an idiot. I have now done my part. His parents have banned him from his bike. They have now done their part. He might get back on it in 6 months and keep things under control. He might still ride like an idiot. That's his decision to make and it will be his fault when he dies.

[leokenner]

no matter how many laws are put in place, nothing can match the value of using your head. Sorry Joe, the gov could not protect you from yourself... but then, thats not what they are there for.

[06CBR1KMFNRR]

It is definitely not the law's fault. The government has no right to tell me what kind of motorcycle I may purchase; especially given that I can kill myself on a 75cc scooter in a heartbeat. I don't know about Canada, but there isn't an abundance of success for government regulation down here. I say keep them out of as much as possible.

The same issues exist with firearms. Does the dealer sell a Desert Eagle 44mag as a first gun to any guy of age that has the cash? How does the dealer know the guy isn't intending on going out and committing murder with it?

Are you referencing the caliber in relation to the abiliy of the 1KRR? Either you should be able to have a gun or not, the government shouldn't get to chose which ones you may own. 22's kill a whole lot more people in this country than Desert Eagles.

Back on topic:
We have to be responsible for our own actions. The guy's friends should feel partially responsible because they had input in the situation both in telling him to buy a more usable bike and in telling him not to ride like a jack**s, but 99% of this is on Joe. The dealer's in the clear. If I drive drunk and kill somebody, contrary to modern law, it's not the bartender's fault. It's my fault.

[HCCAFan]

Originally Posted by pizzaboy

Well after reading this, it reminded me of my friends who killed himself....it was back in 99'... he just broke up with his girl friend and moved out of this condo they bought together, so he moved in with me in my house, his girlfriend would never let him buy anything he wanted, so he decieded he was gonna get a New Beeetle or A Bike. Of course, me already have a my ZX7 at the time ,told him he should get a bike. So we went out looking and he liked the GSXR750. So he bought it , I've told him to take it easy because he was a "squid" and that bike was to much for him. He laughed at me, and I told him that he cant ride like the other because he never had a street bike and there are alot of different factors to riding(cold tires, sand in the road, cars, etc) Well he only had the bike a month or so .... so one sunday morning he told me he was going for a ride to New Hope with some other guys and if I wanted to go.I said No cuz I had to get my engagement Pic's done , when I got back I had a message on my machine. It was one of the guys that was with him(and he was a friend of mine) told me to call him right away. I did and found out my friend died.. He crashed into poll doing about 100 on the way back.
I wish we had a system where you had to earn the right to get the big bikes. Start off on a little 250 or 500, ride that for a little bit then move to a 600, then 750 , then the big boys. At least my friend could have got some experience before he got his hands on a 750.

(sorry for the rant... its been awhile since he died ) guess I dont have to got to therapy this week..

I don't even feel comfortable speculating on whether or not this kinda topic is good or bad. Saying yes you should start small or no get what ever you want seems like it seals your fate to me. Take a stand and the road proves you wrong...what's left to say. Stay safe brothers. This story is sad.

[one fast fish]

There is no question that the rider is at fault. You can blame the friends or the salesman all you want, and if you're foolish you can wish for more laws on the subject, but the bottom line has already been stated. Too many people today are looking for someone or something to point their finger at. At the end of the day you live or die by the choices you make.

I started out on a cruiser and got a Shadow 750 because I didn't think the 1100 was a good idea. Shortly thereafter I moved to NC and met a bunch of guys with sport bikes. Two friends bought a used 600 Katana to learn on, which I thought was pretty cool since they were both chompin at the bit to buy new GSXR750s. Friend A "learned" first and after two weeks without a spill went out and bought the 750. He then proceded to "teach" friend B by going out in small neighborhoods and parking lots. He never really taught B anything, just expected him to learn by watching.

We would all go for rides and I would attempt to tell B about some fundamentals as they were taught to me and actually make him practice things like starting and stopping without stalling, looking through turnds in emptly parking lots, etc. I am not a qualified instructor by any means, but at this point I had at least been riding for over a year and couldn't stand to see A leave B in the dust in traffic and just expect him to get it.

Before this story gets too long, if it isn't already, A has bike stolen after just a month, buys brand new R1. B gets GSXR600 because he is still learning and at least realizes he knows very little. After 8 months A declares himself an experienced rider who wants to learn some tricks and ends up goosing it in a turn backflipping the bike out from under him and tumbling down the road at about 40 miles an hour.

This guy started out the right way by trying to learn on a smaller bike, but I don't think it would have mattered if he never got the R1, he still would have done something similarly retarded and gotten messed up. Luckily he walked away with some serious bruises and scrapes, and with a much deeper respect for bikes, but still blew off the wreck as if it wasn't his stupidity that almost got him killed.

B rode his 600, and as far as I know still has it 5 years later, never getting in an accident. He admitted he didn't know how to ride and didn't want anything bigger. Laws about experience and bike size will only result in frustration for those that can handle responsibilty and won't prevent the galactically stupid from weeding themselves out of the gene pool one wide corner at a time.

[.OrgOwner]

Originally Posted by one fast fish

There is no question that the rider is at fault. You can blame the friends or the salesman all you want, and if you're foolish you can wish for more laws on the subject, but the bottom line has already been stated. Too many people today are looking for someone or something to point their finger at. At the end of the day you live or die by the choices you make.

Does anyone think there is an argument here for compulsory "advanced rider training" on high end sports bikes? A smart dealer may even be able to turn it into a value add to their business. BTW I agree 100% that people need to take the heat in life for whatever choices they make, my thoughts on starting this thread were along the lines of uncovering ideas that might limit this type of tragedy.

[SpikedLemon]

Originally Posted by .OrgOwner

Does anyone think there is an argument here for compulsory "advanced rider training" on high end sports bikes? A smart dealer may even be able to turn it into a value add to their business. BTW I agree 100% that people need to take the heat in life for whatever choices they make, my thoughts on starting this thread were along the lines of uncovering ideas that might limit this type of tragedy.

It all comes back to the rider: do they -chose- to take this course?
I bet if it's added cost: the answer is no most of the time.

[analogbear]

Originally Posted by Phadreus

One of the biggest problems we (mankind) has, is that you can't legislate morality and ethics.

Actually, our criminal law (and to a certain extent the law of Tort) is a legislated -as in codified by committee- version of our morality. And, as Ethics is merely an "applied" morality, and because many fields of endeavor have some variety of ethical code, many of which have the force or effect of law, we in fact can and do legislate morality and ethics...What we can't do is force, through legal means or otherwise, ALL people to to adopt the SAME moral principles or ethical code.

Originally Posted by HCCAFan

I don't even feel comfortable speculating on whether or not this kinda topic is good or bad. Saying yes you should start small or no get what ever you want seems like it seals your fate to me. Take a stand and the road proves you wrong...what's left to say. Stay safe brothers. This story is sad.

Amen to this.

Originally Posted by .OrgOwner

Does anyone think there is an argument here for compulsory "advanced rider training" on high end sports bikes? A smart dealer may even be able to turn it into a value add to their business. BTW I agree 100% that people need to take the heat in life for whatever choices they make, my thoughts on starting this thread were along the lines of uncovering ideas that might limit this type of tragedy.

The difference in "speed of onset of death" between a 250cc and a 1KRR is measureable in seconds and feet, rather than minutes and miles. Sure the idea of advanced driver training is appealing to those of us who take the classes on our own (who hasn't been or at least desired a trip to one of the sport-bike schools?), but as a compulsory measure? I am not sure. Certainly it might (the offering of a class) be a boon to a given shop/dealership to offer the class.

[Hasdrubal]

Think of this whole issue from another angle: what would public response be if the government started pushing legislation about horsepower limits, or gradiated licenses for cars? Why should someone be able to just go and drive a Mustang or a Corvette?

I know car accident rates are probably lower than those for sportbikes, but part of that has to do with age. Old guys have an easier time buying Corvettes than high school students. Should sports cars be restricted by age, then?

Nick

[dattaway]

What a world this would be if sports were banned. Jetskis, flying, base jumping, snowmobiles, football, boxing, swimming, baseball... That motorcycle gets me to work and they aren't taking my ride! I mentioned swimming, because a couple of people in this city were killed in their pools due to an electrical problem. Some young girl got beaned in the chest with a softball and died over the weekend too. Leave it to the news to teach people fear and completely skip the education part.

[analogbear]

Originally Posted by Hasdrubal

Think of this whole issue from another angle: what would public response be if the government started pushing legislation about horsepower limits, or gradiated licenses for cars? Why should someone be able to just go and drive a Mustang or a Corvette?

I know car accident rates are probably lower than those for sportbikes, but part of that has to do with age. Old guys have an easier time buying Corvettes than high school students. Should sports cars be restricted by age, then?

Nick

Unless one is part of the top 10-20% of income earners, or received a bequest of substantial funds, the young usually can't afford the really fast cars.
Unfortunately, because of the lack of driver training needed to obtain a license, the type of vehicle most involved in traffic accidents is a "family" car, with a young driver at the wheel, not a sports car.

It scares me that a person (even without a license to ride) can walk into a motorcycle dealership and purchase a 'Busa. That bike goes (in rough remembered figures only, no need to impeach me with the actual math, it is not relevant) to 60 faster than any obtainable production street car, does the quarter in like 9 sec, and can be purchased for around 20% of the Corvette.

I would make the MSF course mandatory for a license, make a license mandatory for purchase (not just for an active registration -how many outlaws ride these bikes with no license, right?), and any -ANY- sportbike from the Ninja 500 and up probably needs the advanced course as a mandatory step. Buy whatever bike you want, but you have to show proof of the beginner course to buy and register a cruiser/sport-tourer, AND the advanced course to buy and register a sport bike (I consider the 'busa a sportbike like I consider the Lambo a sports car...Great on the straights, but too much of a turner...). I remember registering my bike on-post when I was in the Army, and we had to show proof of the MSF (or an equivalent Army version -which for us was just the MSF course held ON post) every three years or so. Not a bad idea.

[06CBR1KMFNRR]

I remember registering my bike on-post when I was in the Army, and we had to show proof of the MSF (or an equivalent Army version -which for us was just the MSF course held ON post) every three years or so. Not a bad idea.

America's varsity military (USMC) has the same requirement and it didn't bother me a bit, but that was just one sacrifice of free-will that I was willing to accept as part of the enlistment. I would not be comfortable with the government telling me what kind of bike I must buy because I haven't attended their mandatory course.

I see the problem, but government intervention is not an acceptable solution.

[m0nSteR TwIn]

I come from a country which has a very centralized government. The Canadian Federal gov't has a much greater role in our lives and we generally accept that they are working on our best interests. I think that graduated licensing should be legistated. I think riders should not be eligable to ride "Hyper-Sports" type bikes at all until they've demonstrated their ability to make responsible choices by riding INCIDENT FREE on a smaller, less technically demanding bike for a reasonalble length of time.

I personally believe that we have a responsibility to protect the dumb ones. Unfortunately that generally means punishing the smart ones. The smart ones will normally get to the promised land with or without our guidance. This way more of the dumb ones will too...they might even be smart ones when they get there. If Joe does manage to paste himself to the back of a cube van at 120mph after being on his CBR1000RR for week, ultimately it is his fault, but what could we have done as his friend/salesman/gov't to help him? I think as his friend I am obliged to offer him my warning. I think the gov't has a responsibility to try to protect us from ourselves. In doing so, they are also protecting you from him both physically and financially to an extent.

I think it's interesting how our societies are so different. We in Canada demand that our government protect us. We insist that you protect young Johnny from himself until he learns his way. The American way of life is completely the opposite. Not wrong...but so different.