[CR5DUB]

Originally Posted by Parks

Good idea with the trashcan lids. I have been using manhole covers. They are so large they dissipate heat well and I havent had to replace them in FOREVER. They are lasting way longer than the stock rotors. I work in a hospital so I will need to bring home some tubing for new brake lines.

Originally Posted by jj_long

some people are leaders and some people are followers.

Hitler, Stalin, Mao Tse-Tung, etc. All leaders. What were you saying about leaders?

[CR5DUB]

Originally Posted by Hasdrubal

I've been following this thread for a while now, and the thing that bugs me most is that people are _still_ making fun of dattaway for running substandard pads when he repeatedly tells us that he is experiencing better performance.

If you can't understand how different pad materials work, or if you can't understand how the pad is bonded to the plate, or if you just don't care enough to get the tools and try it (which is absolutely fine), then don't do it.

From what I've read, all of the top Motogp and World Superbike teams make their own pads because they want better performance and nothing says better than making brake pads in your garage with JB Weld and a rivet gun!

Originally Posted by Hasdrubal

I'm going to try this myself. Why? Because I like fabrication and I'm willing to go through some trouble for _better_ performance. It's not about money, either. My other upcoming project is a supercharger for my NSX.

Are you going to cast your own housing or are you going billet?

[saf]

Originally Posted by jj_long

lines huh... tell me more in very interested. ive got a new old bike project that would need something like this. How about cost and supplies? thanks.

Hey there JJ, The lines i make are Speedflow branded gear, with stainless fittings. Cost is about $150aud, thats running twin lines from the master, and they perform better than the Galfer / Goodrich ETC lines you get off the shelf. I didnt want to believe this but ive consistently found this to be the case on lines we have swapped off customers bikes !.

Speedflow is a competitor to Earls gear, but in all ways nicer. Their AN fittings are all top shelf items, better finish etc etc.

[Doomwitha929]

Originally Posted by dattaway

The pad material is surplus refill pad for industrial electric motor brakes. It isn't bonded to a plate, so it is very easy to use. Now where do you get this stuff?

Electric Hoist Friction Plate (Linan Hualong Friction Material Co., Ltd.,China)

"Electric hoist brake pads" can be found in most industrial supply catalogs or retail surplus. Unfortunately, the distributors for these parts don't have their catalog pages widely visible in google yet. I believe Grainger should have them. What electric hoist? Every hoist model I've worked with has them. I believe that pad pictured is used in a two horsepower Budgit hoist. Not the pad I used, but very similar. Very high temperature pad with extreme long life and won't wear the plates at all.

Take a hammer to the stock Honda stuff and it will squish like lead....a very spongy feel. The fiber from a hoist pad is a very strong ceramic that doesn't feel flat under heavy braking. You can burn this stuff under a torch just like the Honda pads.

The epoxy for binding the pads to the plate doesn't get hot as you think. Even under full throttle at 150mph with the brake lever pushed to the point of fading, the epoxy hasn't burned on me yet. I believe if you stuck a sheet of paper between the pad and caliper, it wouldn't burn. The heat from a good pad radiates quickly and insulates the rotor from the caliper. I found the stock brake pads conduct heat too quickly. Stock pads fade quickly and eat rotors faster with a poorer recovery rate. I'm not sure why they use that squishy metallic stuff. Everyone seems to use it these days. I guess the stuff I use is the evil cancer causing asbestos everyone fears.

I don't know. It works for me. The stock Honda pads never lasted 10,000 miles, ate into my rotors hard, squealed like pigs, and I got tired of paying nearly $100 a set. Now I pay $0.25 for epoxy and last longer than the chain. JBWeld is some amazing stuff.

A. if i was riding industrial equip with an electric motor at 180mph under various weather conditions and irregular heat cycles at diff temperatures then I would make my own brakes with this junk. Problem is I am riding a sport bike at 180mph under constantly changing conditions and honestly would much rather have my brakes built with compound some company came up with after countless hours of testing and thousands of dollars or R&D specificly tailored to make my BIKE brakes brake my BIKE as best as it can and maintain reasonable life. Thats just me though.

B. As for the motor brake compound being harder/firmer. You can go buy some lifetime warranty brake pads for your ZO6 vette at PepBoys that are hard as hell but wont stop your car worth a damn and give you no bite or feedback.

C. Brakes DO get as hot as you think. Paper on the back not burning means nothing. Paper can take a LOT of head especially when both sides of its surface are in compression and not in contct with the oxygen it needs to burn. You will notice as said above a lot of automotive brakes use paper or metalized paper backing (this is a vibration supressor to reduce noice) Many times you will find if part of the paper is hanging off the back of the pad it is burned to a crisp. Under repeated hard braking your rotors can become so hot they glow red, I am fairly certain that is DAMN hot.

D. The epoxy used for the bonding of the pad to backing is designed to deal with a whole host of variables not the least of which is heat but there are others as important. JB weld may take the heat but the pads are under an insane amount of sheering force and has to maintain its strength while constantly being heated and cooled while also having significant heat transfer properties. Pads used to be riveted on untill they came up with an epoxy advanced enough to do what they needed it to do. JB weld has been out in the same formula for far longer. Does anyone believe if JB weld was good enough to do the job they wouldnt have used it befor?

E. A pretty good rule of thumb for pads and rotors is the shorter the life of the pad and rotor, the softer the pad compound and the rotor alloy the better they work. Pretty much every performance brake system on cars eats its self pretty fast. Get those super hard cheap pads that last forever and they suck at stopping. Pads are made with a soft compound and rotors of a softer alloy because it gives you better feel and feed back. Yes they dont last as long but I rather have premium braking on a sportbike or supercar then long lasting brake pads. Also harder pads with higher metalic % make more noise.

[ghbzorro]

This thread is getting better and better, but I think everybody should learn to make their feelings known and not hide them so much.

I've already put in my $0.02 once, so I guess this will make it $0.04:

Dattaway is not engineering a new brake system. He is not modifying the interface between the caliper and the backing plate. He is not manufacturing a newly designed backing plates from different material. He is not formulating a new pad compound. He is just doing some assembly work.

He is not even taking a chance and eliminating the rivets and relying on epoxy alone (somebody else already thought of that).

Bikes are very light and therefore they do not need strong brakes. That is why the rotors, calipers and master cylinder can be so tiny. They are hand-operated and still do not require boost. Bike brakes are NOT heavy duty.

I won't refurbish my own brake pads because I am too lazy and impatient, I have no facilities available to me right now, and my hands-on skills would make the final product quality uncertain. But I would happily buy refurbished pads from Dattaway.

I believe that standard brake pads are made from the lowest possible cost materials that give adequate perceived performance. Some companies sell premium pads that are a little more expensive to produce, though I would expect ones used on industrial motor brakes to be formulated for much tougher conditions than a mere bike brake pad, even "high performance" ones.

I believe him when he says "his" pads outperform stock pads, so I would even pay a premium to get some and give them a try.

But that's just me.

[MACI4LIFE]

Originally Posted by Doomwitha929

A. if i was riding industrial equip with an electric motor at 180mph under various weather conditions and irregular heat cycles at diff temperatures then I would make my own brakes with this junk. Problem is I am riding a sport bike at 180mph under constantly changing conditions and honestly would much rather have my brakes built with compound some company came up with after countless hours of testing and thousands of dollars or R&D specificly tailored to make my BIKE brakes brake my BIKE as best as it can and maintain reasonable life. Thats just me though.

B. As for the motor brake compound being harder/firmer. You can go buy some lifetime warranty brake pads for your ZO6 vette at PepBoys that are hard as hell but wont stop your car worth a damn and give you no bite or feedback.

C. Brakes DO get as hot as you think. Paper on the back not burning means nothing. Paper can take a LOT of head especially when both sides of its surface are in compression and not in contct with the oxygen it needs to burn. You will notice as said above a lot of automotive brakes use paper or metalized paper backing (this is a vibration supressor to reduce noice) Many times you will find if part of the paper is hanging off the back of the pad it is burned to a crisp. Under repeated hard braking your rotors can become so hot they glow red, I am fairly certain that is DAMN hot.

D. The epoxy used for the bonding of the pad to backing is designed to deal with a whole host of variables not the least of which is heat but there are others as important. JB weld may take the heat but the pads are under an insane amount of sheering force and has to maintain its strength while constantly being heated and cooled while also having significant heat transfer properties. Pads used to be riveted on untill they came up with an epoxy advanced enough to do what they needed it to do. JB weld has been out in the same formula for far longer. Does anyone believe if JB weld was good enough to do the job they wouldnt have used it befor?

E. A pretty good rule of thumb for pads and rotors is the shorter the life of the pad and rotor, the softer the pad compound and the rotor alloy the better they work. Pretty much every performance brake system on cars eats its self pretty fast. Get those super hard cheap pads that last forever and they suck at stopping. Pads are made with a soft compound and rotors of a softer alloy because it gives you better feel and feed back. Yes they dont last as long but I rather have premium braking on a sportbike or supercar then long lasting brake pads. Also harder pads with higher metalic % make more noise.

part D: is my biggest question. like you mentioned, is jb weld strong enough to handle the heat cycles and other variables? ( i don't think these brake pad refurbishers use jb weld as their bonding agent but i do wonder what they use.)

part E: is exactly why i'm thinking of tackling this job. If I ( or someone on this board) can find a very soft pad out there, that may unfortunately wear down faster than average ( but grips like a MOFO ) then i don't mind doing the replacements more often it's it's only going to cost me a fraction of the new pads. ( we already have the backing plate of our current pads that we can use). We all have budgets that we have to follow, and that sometimes means sacrificing the best possible performance for longer wear and/or price.

I'm sure that if we were to get a hold of a friction pad piece made of the same material as the HRC hard bite, then a lot more people would be interested in trying to figure out the best epoxy to bind the plate to pad and use the new cost effective yet top of the line brake pad.

the variables that a lot of people here are probably afraid of.
brake pad quality
epoxy quality
actually constructing the brakes ( fear of screwing up could have huge consequences).

i'm not afraid of tackling the project, dattaway explained how he marriaged the pad to plate already. i just want to find the best possible pad quality and epoxy glue quality ( i don't trust jb weld).

150 for HRC pads ( out of my price range )
60 for sbk5's ( in my range but probably does not have the performance of HRC)
if i can make HRC pads for 60 bucks then i can have my pie and eat it too.

[Doomwitha929]

Originally Posted by ghbzorro

This thread is getting better and better, but I think everybody should learn to make their feelings known and not hide them so much.

I've already put in my $0.02 once, so I guess this will make it $0.04:

Dattaway is not engineering a new brake system. He is not modifying the interface between the caliper and the backing plate. He is not manufacturing a newly designed backing plates from different material. He is not formulating a new pad compound. He is just doing some assembly work.

He is not even taking a chance and eliminating the rivets and relying on epoxy alone (somebody else already thought of that).

Bikes are very light and therefore they do not need strong brakes. That is why the rotors, calipers and master cylinder can be so tiny. They are hand-operated and still do not require boost. Bike brakes are NOT heavy duty.

I won't refurbish my own brake pads because I am too lazy and impatient, I have no facilities available to me right now, and my hands-on skills would make the final product quality uncertain. But I would happily buy refurbished pads from Dattaway.

I believe that standard brake pads are made from the lowest possible cost materials that give adequate perceived performance. Some companies sell premium pads that are a little more expensive to produce, though I would expect ones used on industrial motor brakes to be formulated for much tougher conditions than a mere bike brake pad, even "high performance" ones.

I believe him when he says "his" pads outperform stock pads, so I would even pay a premium to get some and give them a try.

But that's just me.

First paragraph= exactly my point. He isnt doing that he is taking what someone else has done and throwing it out the window and substituting his own pad material NOT for bikes and own epoxy NOT for this application. I'll stick with the stuff that someone has designed for the job thanx.

second paragraph=right again he is not taking out the rivits and using epoxy someone else did think of that. They also designed an epoxy especially for that purpose. They didnt just grab some off the PepBoys shelf and say "heck this should do the trick"

Third paragraph=Bike brakes are very hi perf units. Bikes ARE lighter that is why the rotors can be made so light but for the application they are enormous. Compare the size of car brakes to a bikes brakes and then figure the weight of each vehicle. If a car had brakes proportionally the same size they would be HUGE! Bike brakes are enormous for the size vehicle they are stopping. Go 80mph and slam on the front brakes as hard as you can you will launch yourslef into the air. Do that on a car... never seen a car flip over forwards from hard braking.

Industrial pads Like everything else industrial is most likely made as cheap as possible to still do the job. Industrial products are far less refined then small production use specific things. You think an industrial brake compound for electric motors is as refined as pads specificly designed for bikes? If that is true you GP riders should just toss all those super high performance coumpound pads smaller after market brake/performance companys develop and use brakes off tractors.

[Hasdrubal]

Wow, a lot of traffic on this thread.

After a little more thinking, I think I agree with those who have said that the stock pads are the cheapest possible solution to get the job done with an adequate level of performance.

You have to look at the requirements the parts need to meet here to understand why different applications have different solutions. Honda, and the other factories, need a pad that will give good stopping power, and last a certain number of miles. Say several thousand, I don't really care the exact number.

MotoGP teams need even more stopping power, since they have stickier tires and better road surfaces than we on the street get to use, so they need pads that will grab harder. Of course, they also brake a lot more often then we do, so they need carbon brakes due to the heat dissipation. Now, I think I remember from watching far too much Formula1 that carbon brake components take six months to make in a special oven, so of course the teams can't do it themselves. That's a specialized enough process that only a few companies really want to invest in the equipment.

Even superbike teams need a different sort of pad, they need better heat dissipation and more power than we do on the street, but like the GP guys, they only need it to last for a single race. So, they can get away with a faster wearing material if it gives them better performance.

Look at heavy industrial equipment, though. Need more braking power? Possibly, the moving parts might be big enough to have more kinetic energy than a motorcycle. Need better heat dissipation? Possibly, industrial equipment could be running days at a time, in high ambient temperatures from being surrounded by other machines in a room. Need longer life out of the pad material? Definitely, because down time for pad replacement costs money for all the time the machine isn't operating.

A range of factors, and not all of them might lead to a better material for bike pads. In this case, and thanks to someone braver than I am, it looks like a better material has been found. Of course, if the factory used it, I bet the pads would cost more.

I look forward to trying it myself.

Nick

P.S. CR5DUB, the supercharger is an existing unit- 'Basch Boost,' it's called. My work will be fabbing an air/water intercooler and learning how to do custom engine mapping on a dyno.

[Doomwitha929]

"Look at heavy industrial equipment, though. Need more braking power? Possibly, the moving parts might be big enough to have more kinetic energy than a motorcycle. Need better heat dissipation? Possibly, industrial equipment could be running days at a time, in high ambient temperatures from being surrounded by other machines in a room. Need longer life out of the pad material? Definitely, because down time for pad replacement costs money for all the time the machine isn't operating."

Exactly why industrial pad material would not be as good on a bike. Designed for totally diff usage. They need as long life as possible with NO regard for brake feel or feedback. They dont care if they are grabby, if they give non linear or even eratic grip as temp or pressure changes and they sure as hell dont care if they squeek squeel or stink. They also dont care if the material sticks to stuff once it sheds from the pad like maybe the paint on your bike. Pretty sure the dont care if the dust is easy to clean or if it will plug up the vents or slots in your rotors since industrial equip would not be using vented or gas slotted rotors most likely. Probably dont care if they give linear performance with diff types of rotors like steel, iron etc as bike rotors are available in various metals or composites. Of course they are the cheapest pad the factory could make and still do the job it needs to do but it DOES do the JOB it needs to do. It was designed to do that job. Not to do some other completely diff job with diff variables and then just slapped on a bike. There is an old saying in the trade that goes "the right tool for the right job" Meaning dont try and use a screw driver for a chisel, it may get the job done but it also might leave you with the broken off tip of a screw driver in your eye.

[saf]

Originally Posted by ghbzorro

Bikes are very light and therefore they do not need strong brakes. That is why the rotors, calipers and master cylinder can be so tiny. They are hand-operated and still do not require boost. Bike brakes are NOT heavy duty.

LOL, now that all depends on the way you ride. A bike traveling at speed with a rider that wants to stop in a hurry ..... believe me its far far from "do not need strong brakes". A bike going up a hill at 10mph that needs to stop forward motion, your right, that doesnt need strong brakes.

The same could be said about sport bike engines, and how they are for lighter bikes, lower disp , everything compared to a Ford Lincoln Continental is tiny therefore sport bike engines are not very strong powerplants., yet we know thats not true.

Originally Posted by Doomwitha929

B. As for the motor brake compound being harder/firmer. You can go buy some lifetime warranty brake pads for your ZO6 vette at PepBoys that are hard as hell but wont stop your car worth a damn and give you no bite or feedback.

E. A pretty good rule of thumb for pads and rotors is the shorter the life of the pad and rotor, the softer the pad compound and the rotor alloy the better they work. Pretty much every performance brake system on cars eats its self pretty fast. Get those super hard cheap pads that last forever and they suck at stopping. Pads are made with a soft compound and rotors of a softer alloy because it gives you better feel and feed back. Yes they dont last as long but I rather have premium braking on a sportbike or supercar then long lasting brake pads.

Bang on the money.

You cant rub two plates of high tensile metal together and expect bite, then again rub the two bits the same size in aluminum and see the difference in friction. The better your brakes, the more one or both parties will consume each other. If you run a hard enuf pad that it doesnt wear, and the rotor isnt getting chopped out, its skating across the surface of the rotor and isnt braking correctly.

[jj_long]

Originally Posted by CR5DUB

Hitler, Stalin, Mao Tse-Tung, etc. All leaders. What were you saying about leaders?

im saying you suck.

[MACI4LIFE]

lets not bury this thread just yet.

i found a site that could sell friction plates for car and bike pads.

Clutch Cover,Clutch Disc,Brake pad,Brake shoes,Clutch facing,brake Lining

it's a chinese company, but then again, whats not made in china these days.??

[Doomwitha929]

Originally Posted by MACI4LIFE

lets not bury this thread just yet.

i found a site that could sell friction plates for car and bike pads.

Clutch Cover,Clutch Disc,Brake pad,Brake shoes,Clutch facing,brake Lining

it's a chinese company, but then again, whats not made in china these days.??

this sounds like a better idea. Right material for the job. Now all you need to do is locate the right bonding agent and its good.

[saf]

Originally Posted by Doomwitha929

this sounds like a better idea. Right material for the job. Now all you need to do is locate the right bonding agent and its good.

Or you could just ..... buy made pads ?

Finding the material isnt hard, a place 10km from me here called Brake Bonders would sell me the material ....

[ghbzorro]

Can Brake Bonders provide a variety of friction materials, and give us all some idea of the differences between them?

[MACI4LIFE]

Originally Posted by saf

Or you could just ..... buy made pads ?

Finding the material isnt hard, a place 10km from me here called Brake Bonders would sell me the material ....

stop being a party pooper!!!

i'm gonna have to look up some brake refurbishers in the T.O area.

all thats left is the bonding agent.

My new pads are on order so i'll be able to play with the old ones to see how it goes

[saf]

Originally Posted by ghbzorro

Can Brake Bonders provide a variety of friction materials, and give us all some idea of the differences between them?

They do OEM "quality" for half the price replacements, and i fond they are mostly half the quality too.

But, isnt the whole deal about building your own, so its on the cheap ?. Even if they did better grades, it defies the point. It still baffles me that you guys would consider that .... cracks me up . I mean people not wanting marchesini's, ok i get. Not wanting to pay 50-100bux for pads .....

[NorthSide]

At least if an ''off the shelf'' pad fails, it's not your fault and your insurance will still pay out.
You sure this isn't all a joke? JB weld to hold a brake pad on!!!!
I repaired a fairing with that stuff a few years back and had to re-do it 3 times before it held!

[954racer]

well, this was an interesting read for sure. Here's my 2 cents and I'm surprised no one else brought it up before now. Brake shoes on cars used to always have a "core" value. In some areas they still might, but it seems less common here now with a larger percentage of cars having 4 wheel disc brakes. The main reason for having this core value was to encourage people to return their old materials so that some one could do exactly what Dattaway is describing. Strip off the remainder of the old material from the backing plate and epoxy on some new friction material then re-sell the shoes. I see nothing wrong with the process that Dattaway is describing and would probably attempt it myself if I had the time to track down the materials. As far as the heat dissipation argument goes, again I will go back to the old drum brakes. It is basically an enclosed system with no way to dissipate heat or evacuate brake dust except for removing the drums from time to time and cleaning them up. I have worked in the automotive industry for 10 years now and I have to say that I don't believe the guys on the assembly line putting these pads and shoes together are any more qualified than a large majority of us are. As long as the epoxy or JB weld is mixed and applied properly, there is no reason that the pad should fail any sooner than an off the shelf one would

again, just my 2 cents worth

[Parks]

"As long as the epoxy or JB weld is mixed and applied properly, there is no reason that the pad should fail any sooner than an off the shelf one would"


Isn't that the trick. MIXED AND APPLIED. It is not the "unskilled laborers or idiots at the factory" that are mixing and applying the epoxy, it is something that is mixed in predetermined amounts and applied in a specific fashion, determined by people who are much smarter than the line worker at the brake factory.

Just because you have watched the TV show "How It's Made" does not qualify you to make these products.

But, that is just my $0.02. There is a problem with overpopulation in this country and maybe this will thin the herd a little bit.