[Lambo]

Hi Guys, Can anyone help me?

I have just changed the oil and filter on my Honda CBR 600 F2, Its a 1991 and its done about 52,000 miles. After changing the oil with CASTROL POWER 1 RACING 4T 10W-40 fully Synthetic oil and a K&N oil filter the bike seemed to be running absolutely fine until about 25 minutes on the road and 10 miles, I change up and I felt a small clutch slip. After the next junction the clutch slips again and then the bike starts to run like its got kangaroo juice in the tank. Its juddering and the bike will not run in gear and cuts out the engine. If I give it more RPM the opposite effect happens and it backfires and kills the engine.

So this is my problem, When the bike is cold the bike runs fine and goes into gear perfectly. As soon as it has reached operating temperature it starts to mis-fire,clutch slips and as soon as its in gear there is no power.

So, this is what I can figure out, As the oil heats up it changes weights and this must mean that the oil is to thin for the engine at operating temperature and this is causing the problems? Could the wrong oil be the cause of all these problems? The bike was running like a dream before I had to change the oil. Have I caused any damage with running fully Synthetic Oil? I am going to get the oil out and put a semi-Synthetic Oil in it asap. Any help or advice would be greatly appreciated.

[segiano]

High mileage bikes tend to build up varnish on the inside of the engine. Synthetic oils can dissolve the varnish causing leaks. That is why it is not recommended to change to synthetic oils for older bikes. This could be one of your problems, except, dissolving varnish usually takes longer than 25 minutes.

[ReDevil]

When you say clutch slip do you mean the clutch does not engage completely and bike tends to run away when you clutch in or a gear slip to neutral or other gears?

My 1990 FZR1000 - Changed to Full Synthetic (inspite of being advice against) and started slipping gears to false neutral half the way on the track. Intial pickup from 2-3ks revs was slow before the power fully engaged. Guessing that the clutch was a bit worn and so would the gearing be. Synthetic was not working good on my engine at those temps.

Changed back to Semi synthetic @ lunch, bike was fine in few laps but lost half a track day. You could be hacing the same problem. Don't know if it had any long term damages as wrote the bike off few days later.

[Lambo]

Hi Guys,

Thanks for the information. Actually engaging gear is not to much of a problem It goes in gear and when the clutch is engaged its happy to select gear and stays still until the clutch is released. Once the gear is selected and the clutch is released (at operating temperature) the clutch slips and the bike will mis fire and cut out. When I start it up in neutral the engine runs but very very poorly indeed.

After waiting 3 hours for a tow truck I came home and wrote this post (and had a hot cup of tea!!), I went out to the garage and started the bike as it was cold. It was reving smoothly around the clock, went into gear with no clutch slip with the engine and oil cold. I did notice that the was a 'ticking' noise from the engine that was not there before the problems earlier in the day.

I will get the oil out and put in semi in hope of fixing the problem. I will give you an update and whether this fixes this strange problems. I think your right though, it was a bad idea to fit fully synthetic oil to this bike. High Milage (although its very well looked after!) and a older engine does not seem to like it to much at all. Cheers guys.

[dattaway]

I had a clutch slip problem after I changed my oil once. It was bad. I took the clutch apart and noticed thousands of tiny fibers on the plates that happened to be the same color as oil filter paper. That was the last time I used FRAM filters. Changing just the filter again solved my problem. I guess the FRAM exploded inside or something.

[lanbrown]

FRAM filters are cheaply made and in the 90's they were banned from several racing organizations because of faulty welds which allowed the filter to come apart and spew oil all over the track. It wasn’t until a few years later where FRAM filters could be used again. If you do a search, there are reports of some filters on cars failing the same way, and this was in the past year or two. FRAM has not learned from their past mistakes.

[dennisg]

I put full synthetic oil into my 6000mile FZ1 a few hundred miles back. On my last ride [fortunately short] I noticed minor clutch slippage. Redline oil does have molly in it and that may be the problem even if it is labeled "for motorcycles"
I'd like to know if anyone was successful in washing the synthetic oil completely out
instead of having to replace their clutch plates.

dennis

[dennisg]

I put full synthetic oil into my FZ1 a few hundred miles back. On my last ride [fortunately short] I noticed clutch slippage. This oil does have molly in it and that may be the problem even if it is labeled "for motorcycles"
I'd like to know if anyone was successful in washing the synthetic oil completely out
instead of having to replace their clutch plates.
dennis

[oldnslow]

If you have clutch slippage it's because your clutch is bad, not because you put in synthetic oil.

[Ol' Gravy Leg]

not necessarily. i'm a firm believer in synthetics, and i don't buy any of that crap about greater shearing forces or hydrocarbon breakdown (i've read enough researh on the subject).

however, since i changed to mobil 1 15-50 silver cap, my clutch slips a little. bear in mind that this synth only has ~70-90 ppm of moly in it (very little). granted i offer anecdotal evidence, but as you can see others have experienced this, too.

[dennisg]

There have been documented problems of clutch failure in bikes running the new "low friction" oil. {It may go under another name}
dennis

[lanbrown]

Originally Posted by dennisg

I'd like to know if anyone was successful in washing the synthetic oil completely out
instead of having to replace their clutch plates.
dennis

It can be done if the oil hasn't had too much time to impregnate itself. You need to remove the plates and let them sit in clean oil. Let them sit for several days and you may want to change the oil out once or twice and let them sit again.

[Ol' Gravy Leg]

Originally Posted by lanbrown

...had too much time to impregnate itself.

you mean with a turkey baster? isn't that how melissa etheridge did it?

[lanbrown]

Originally Posted by Ol' Gravy Leg

you mean with a turkey baster? isn't that how melissa etheridge did it?

No, try a cow baster. A turkey is pretty close to a chicken and you ndon't want to be a chicken.

[oldnslow]

Originally Posted by Ol' Gravy Leg

not necessarily. i'm a firm believer in synthetics, and i don't buy any of that crap about greater shearing forces or hydrocarbon breakdown (i've read enough researh on the subject).

however, since i changed to mobil 1 15-50 silver cap, my clutch slips a little. bear in mind that this synth only has ~70-90 ppm of moly in it (very little). granted i offer anecdotal evidence, but as you can see others have experienced this, too.

If synthetic oil causes clutch slippage. How do you explain the MILLIONS of motorcycles that run synthetic and the clutches don't slip?

[Ol' Gravy Leg]

Originally Posted by oldnslow

If synthetic oil causes clutch slippage. How do you explain the MILLIONS of motorcycles that run synthetic and the clutches don't slip?

I don't have to. why? because you're logic is faulty.

here's a parallel example of your logic.

statement: smoking causes cancer. (numerous clincal studies have demonstrated this)

the facts: some people who smoke have cancer. some others do not.

your retort: well, if smoking causes cancer, then how do you explain the millions of smokers who don't have cancer?

see what i'm saying? the point is that the assertion doesn't need to be true for the whole group to be true.

ergo, sythetics may cause some clutches to slip but not all clutches nor not all the time.

as for my bike, it may just be the additives in the syth and not the syth itself.

[CBR929RE]

V

[dennisg]

Originally Posted by Ol' Gravy Leg

not necessarily. i'm a firm believer in synthetics, and i don't buy any of that crap about greater shearing forces or hydrocarbon breakdown (i've read enough researh on the subject).

however, since i changed to mobil 1 15-50 silver cap, my clutch slips a little. bear in mind that this synth only has ~70-90 ppm of moly in it (very little).

My oil has 800ppm molly in it. I will warm up the engine drain it and replace it with Delo . run it a few miles and replace the Delo .
I'd like to try mobil 1 but now I'm on the cautious side.
dennis

[curt248]

The oil manufacturers are constantly updating their oils with different additives. You can be sure that the oil you used 4 years ago or maybe even last season has changed even if the bottle and name are the same.

Look up some of the studies.

The energy conserving oils were reported to be possible culprits of slipping clutches. I can't remember if the energy conserving oils had moly as the additive. It's possible that energy conservatives have the friction modifiers that can cause clutch slippage.

So long story short, newer synthetics or even regular oils could have new additives that wern't in them last year that could cause clutch slippage. Auto engine oil makers are not worried about additives that would change how they work in motorcycles with wet clutches.

[dennisg]

You are right about ongoing changes taking place in oils.
Redline has brought out a new motorcycle specific oil with half as much molly in it as the Redline oil that I used last fall. That tells us something. They are really trying to do something for bikers
The new oil has 500ppm molly, with increased zinc and phosphate levels for higher protection levels in the event of oil film failure.

You are also right about auto oils and friction modifiers. We must avoid energy conserving oils.
Their unspecified friction modifiers do cause wet clutch problems. There are two forms of molly . One of them is said not to cause problems.

At this point I'm going to run Rotella T for a while to clean the old oil out of my clutch.

Synthetic oil reduces startup wear as its chemistry keeps it in the bearing spaces when the engine is not running. I'll return to it when my clutch is better.
dennis

[dennisg]

Originally Posted by oldnslow

If synthetic oil causes clutch slippage. How do you explain the MILLIONS of motorcycles that run synthetic and the clutches don't slip?

First: There are not millions.

Second: "synthetic" can be misleading as it is a new buzzword. A "synthetic blend" means very little.

third : Some bikes [ BMW's for example] run dry clutches. The problem is in wet clutches made with fiber friction inserts.

[curt248]

Anyone run this years mobil one systhetic yet? It looks good from the tests, but I'm not sure if they changed the formula recently.

If so, did your clutch slip?

here's an article on the best filters for each bike
Motorcycle Oil Filter Cross Reference
here's an article explaining the differences in filter quality

None of the motorcycle brand filters are recommended as better quality
Motorcycle Oil Filter Comparison

Here's one of the best oil test articles
Oils Well That Ends Well, Part 2 - Sport Rider Magazine

[oldnslow]

Originally Posted by dennisg

First: There are not millions.

Second: "synthetic" can be misleading as it is a new buzzword. A "synthetic blend" means very little.

third : Some bikes [ BMW's for example] run dry clutches. The problem is in wet clutches made with fiber friction inserts.

Yes, it would be millions.

I guess I must be having a lucky run then....I have always run synthetic (not blends) in my bikes and have never had a problem.

If you could actually prove that a motorcycle specific, synthetic oil made clutches slip then it would not be on the market very long.

[Ol' Gravy Leg]

i run it, too.

the protection it offers outweighs any infrequent slippage.

[CBR929RE]

are you people running true synthetics or just what the manufacturers call synthetics? either way as long as they are good quality oils you should be fine. synthetic or dino based has nothing to do with clutch slippage.

stuff like mobil1 and shell rotella T are not real synthetics. they are just highly refined dino oils. its just a marketing term to them and not an actual descriptive property of the base.

stuff like Motul 300v and Maxima Maxum4 are ester based synthetics. ester based means they are not made from petroleum like other stuff.

[curt248]

I believe Mobil 1 synthetic is a group IV oil based on their lawsuit afains Castrol claiming that since castrol changed their formula to contain group III instead of its' previous group IV base. Anyone know for sure?

Group I: Solvent frozen mineral oil. This is the least processed of all oils on the market today and is typically used in nonautomotive applications, though some of it may find its way into low-cost motor oils.
Group II: Hydro-processed and refined mineral oil. This is the most common of all petroleum oils and is the standard component of most petroleum-based automotive and motorcycle engine oils.
Group III (now called synthetic): The oils start as standard Group I oils and are processed to remove impurities, resulting in a more heat-stable compound than possible as a standard Group I or II oil. Some examples are Castrol Syntec automotive oil and Motorex Top Speed. These are the lowest cost synthetics to produce, and generally do not perform as well as Group IV or V oils.
Group IV: Polyalphaolefin, commonly called PAOs. These are the most common of the full synthetic oils, and usually offer big improvements in heat and overall stability when compared to Group III oils. They are produced in mass quantities and are reasonably inexpensive for full-synthetic oils. Since they are wax-free they offer high viscosity indexes (low temperature pour point) and often require little or no viscosity modifiers. Examples include Amsoil and Motorex Power Synt.
Group V: Esters. These oils start their life as plant or animal bases called fatty acids. They are then converted via a chemical reaction into esters or diesters which are then used as base stocks. Esters are polar, which means they act like a magnet and actually cling to metals. This supposedly offers much better protection on metal-to-metal surfaces than conventional PAOs, which do not have this polar effect. These base stock oils also act as a good solvent inside the engine, translating into cleaner operation. Esters are the most expensive to produce, and oils manufactured with them usually cost much more. Due to this higher cost, many companies only fortify their oils with esters. Some examples are Bel-Ray EXS, Torco MPZ Synthetic and Maxum 4 Extra. Motul 300V, however, uses 100 percent ester as its base oil, and is one of the more expensive oils.