Old CBR - do up, or bite bullet and pay for newer version?

marty_400 · 12-21-2008, 7:25 PM

Hiya All,

Financial Realities kicking in.

I have a 1996 CBR600F3, and a 1992 CBR400RRN.

The girlfriend is going to have the CBR400 (Horay, the only way I can get her to ride!) I now need to get myself sorted out.

What do I do? Do up the CBR6, or bite the bullet and pay for a newer version?
(I bought the CBR400 as a "fair weather rider" replacement for the CBR600. But now, I'll be riding a bit more, and need to work out what I should do.)

I never spec'ed up the CBR6, apart from Braided hoses, and lowering the seat padding. The CBR4 is a real pocket rocket..... I'm not sure I can just go back to a "comfy armchair" stock CBR600f3.

What do I do?
I figure, there are 2 options:

1) Buy 2nd hand 2007 CBR600: Cost £5,500 + £(Increased insurance)

2) Keep old Bike: Cost £650+
1) £ 50 K&N Filter
2) £250 K&N Carb Kit & Set up
3) £150 Aftermarket Can
4) £200 New Chain and Sprockets (She needs them now!)
5) n/a Scottoiler

A big saving If I keep the old cbr600! But would the above upgrades improve the 1996 CBR6 materially? Or am I really looking at a newer CBR6 - to compete with the buzz of a CBR400?!?!?! THe 2007 Model is, what, 15Kg lighter, and outputs more BHP and Torque etc!

Hope you can advise

Cheers
Martin

marty_400 · 12-23-2008, 6:39 AM

Bump!

Com'on Chaps, I know this is an emotive and controversial question. But I'd really like you opnion on this one!

A big saving If I keep the old cbr600! But would the above upgrades listed about improve the 1996 CBR6 in a significant way?

Hope you can advise!

Cheers
Martin

sscottab · 12-23-2008, 6:51 AM

the 07 is a nice bike but what you have now is a nice bike, there are alot of differance between the 2 bikes, the 07 is fuel injected, lighter,and alot more power and torque, the f3 has always been a good bike and nothing wrong with putting some money into it and keeping it. it all depends on what you want and how much money you have to spare.

marty_400 · 12-23-2008, 6:58 AM

Quote:

Originally Posted by sscottab

the 07 is a nice bike but what you have now is a nice bike, there are alot of differance between the 2 bikes, the 07 is fuel injected, lighter,and alot more power and torque, the f3 has always been a good bike and nothing wrong with putting some money into it and keeping it. it all depends on what you want and how much money you have to spare.

Hiya Scott,

I'm starting to think that as well!

Are there any helpful web sites RE

yno Charts etc?
I'm hoping for "Before" and "After" case studies.

Be good to see reviews of cbr600f

sscottab · 12-23-2008, 7:13 AM

not sure about other sites for the 600, iam only in a couple sites and this is one of 2 main sites i log into on a daily basis, try typing in cbr600f3 in your search engine and see what comes up you might find what you are looking for.

Twincam · 12-23-2008, 7:54 AM

Congrats on getting your other half riding...

Back to the thread... Do you need another bike? Can you afford to buy it AND pay the extra expenses e.g. higher premium?

From the way I look at it, I would put the £650 into the CBR6F3 and use that. Maybe in the future upgrade but the way things are going e.g. recession, why upgrade when there is no need?

Upgrade when you need to, not when you want to. (But that doesn't mean your other half can now buy some extra shoes or a handbag...)

Bucko@buck88.ka · 12-23-2008, 7:56 AM

In the current economic situation i'd be tempted to keep the old old bike that said in the current economic situation some good deals will be coming up ! It all really depends on your circumstances

marty_400 · 12-23-2008, 7:59 AM

Hiya Chaps,

Yeah, you are probably right! Money wise, it'll be better to not spend stupid at this point in time.

Right, do up the old CBR600 it is then!

One gripe - 2nd gear is a pig to get into. Especially compared to the CBR400 silky smooth change.

Is that expensive major "engine" work to cure, or is it relatively cheaper "crack open engine case, replace 2nd gear cog, repace"????

Twincam · 12-23-2008, 8:04 AM

I have no clue regarding the second gear... One person who will probably be able to help you is Bladeracer - I believe he has seen a fair few gearboxes in his time.

The CBR6 is bound to be different compared to the 400... Just will take a little getting used to.

denzee · 12-23-2008, 8:13 AM

You know your financial situation best but I'd say keep the bike for another season while you save a little more. Half of the things you listed for replacement on the old F3 aren't neccessary so don't spend it. Then consider an 04 or 05 CBR 600. Much less all the way around.

sumthin_major · 12-23-2008, 11:57 AM

The way the market is now , it may be a good time to find a good deal on a bike. If its in your budget.

Sideshow bob · 12-23-2008, 1:25 PM

I'd think of it this way.....

If you like the look/power of the 6 you've got...
keep it and do it up......

If your not happy with it look for a newer one at a bargin price... alot of people are having to sell second bikes etc... so you may be able to pick up a bargin if you can stretch to it

dondi · 12-23-2008, 10:36 PM

Have you ridden a 2007/2008 600RR yet?

I was on the fence between putting money into a 2003 F4i and buying a 2007/8 RR.

That was before I rode the RR.

Afterwards it was no longer a question. Yes it was more money but there was a huge difference between the F4i and the RR. I can only imagine the difference between the F3 and the RR.

Look at this way; how many generations of changes have there been since the F3? 1st F4, 2nd F4i, 3rd 03 RR, 4th 05 RR, 5th 07 RR. That's five redesigns with the F4, 03RR and 07RR being huge changes from the previous generation.

Like I said once I rode the 08 RR I went home just so I could tell myself that I wasn't being hasty, came back the next day and rode it home.

TechRyan · 12-25-2008, 1:54 AM

I'm in the same boat as you Marty. I have a 98 F3 that needs some work and I keep wondering if it's worth the expense on parts. Right now I've got the left fork out cause it's leaking. I've rebuilt them before and a set of new seals from race tech is pretty resonably priced...but the pitting in the fork tube I noticed upon inspection is bothering me. New OEM ones retail about $175 each and I'm having a hard time finding a used parts bike(preferably crashed/cheaper) cheap without bent forks.

The clutch is starting to go and a few other areas are fine as is, but my anal retentive self is bothered enough about them to want to fix them.

I've PDI'd and test riden quite a few newer CBRs including the 08 models...so I definitly know the huge difference in performance between the models. After all this, I plan to keep my baby. Bottom line, I love the bike. It's way more fun stuffing the front of my F3 into a corner and wringing it's neck on the way out then it is on the newer models...which can make you ask yourself, did I even feel anything taking that last turn on this latest and greatest bike?

Plus I just got my new insurance premium last month since the bike has turned 10 years old...went from about $400/year to $89/year...F-in A

And part of me has to wonder would I be happy owning just a newer bike that only needed routine maintanence...what the heck would I do on rainly or cold days?

Each person is different, for me I vote keep it. Plus it's kinda cool to feel unique on an older bike that you don't see many of nowadays. It's cool to have the latest and greates bike out there, but that looses it's magic after dropping it for the first time or whenyou see a bunch of other people on the same new model. The cool unique feeling of being on an older model in good condition just gets better with age, IMO

marty_400 · 12-25-2008, 8:02 AM

Hiya All,

Firstly, happy xmas all! I Havebeen shoo'ed out of kitchen, while parents finish xmas dinner! Waiting for rest of family to arrive!

Thank you for all the input guys.

I reckon I will keep the old CBR for the time being. The money saved is just to significant! We can use it on new bike gear for her, Bike Training, Biking holiday?? etc etc

May get a more powerful cbr at a later date, when the GF speeds up and I need to actually push myself a bit more! 8)

Cheers all

Martin

Twincam · 12-26-2008, 7:03 AM

When your other half gets more comfortable on the 400 and needs something a little bigger, you could sell the 400 (if you wanted to), buy a newer 600 and LEND her the F3

marty_400 · 12-26-2008, 7:48 AM

Quote:

Originally Posted by Twincam

When your other half gets more comfortable on the 400 and needs something a little bigger, you could sell the 400 (if you wanted to), buy a newer 600 and LEND her the F3

No chance, unfortunately!
The old 1996 CBR is too big for her!

I think its because its too wide .

Until then, I'm gonna use the CBR400 as much as possible! She is awesome!

Cheers
Martin

Corvus · 12-26-2008, 4:54 PM

I'd keep the older bike, and do the maintenance & some smart modifications...

I'm sure the new CBR is awesome... and lighter bikes are so nice. But new 4 cylinder bikes make their spectacular HP near the very top, and are not often more powerful in the mid-range than the older versions. For a street bike, I think it can be too much of a good thing, you know?

Anyway, here's a list of mods that could make sense:
1. 520 chain and sprockets (since you need replacements anyway). Modern chains are stronger than before, so a good 520 chain would have ~9000 lb tensile strength, which is more than the OEM 530 chain. You'll drop a pound or two of rotating mass, which will make the bike rev more quickly.

You could also change the gearing to -1 tooth front(14/43) or +3 on the rear (15/46): no additional power, but more rapid acceleration... downsides on that are reducing your top speed, and making your cruising RPM higher. The above gearing change is pretty modest though, and wouldn't create much ill side-effects.

2. Skip the K&N air filter, but do the K&N (a.k.a. Dynojet) or Factory stage1 jet kit. A clean OEM/replacement filter flows plenty of air... you can actually lose power with the K&N filter. The last two jet kits I bought were ~30-40 dollars on ebay.

3. Good aftermarket cans can be gotten pretty cheaply if you're patient... and will drop maybe 12-15 lbs. I'd stay away from D&D (too loud) and Vance and Hines (poor-ish quality). Maybe Hindle or Scorpion? Here's what I have on my 98 F3 (Holeshot in black satin finish) GBR600 F Series

There are a few other tricks, like a 2 to 4 degree ignition-advance or altering cam timing... but these are more suited for track-bikes.

marty_400 · 12-27-2008, 7:52 AM

Quote:

Originally Posted by Corvus

I'd keep the older bike, and do the maintenance & some smart modifications...

I'm sure the new CBR is awesome... and lighter bikes are so nice. But new 4 cylinder bikes make their spectacular HP near the very top, and are not often more powerful in the mid-range than the older versions. For a street bike, I think it can be too much of a good thing, you know?

Anyway, here's a list of mods that could make sense:
1. 520 chain and sprockets (since you need replacements anyway). Modern chains are stronger than before, so a good 520 chain would have ~9000 lb tensile strength, which is more than the OEM 530 chain. You'll drop a pound or two of rotating mass, which will make the bike rev more quickly.

You could also change the gearing to -1 tooth front(14/43) or +3 on the rear (15/46): no additional power, but more rapid acceleration... downsides on that are reducing your top speed, and making your cruising RPM higher. The above gearing change is pretty modest though, and wouldn't create much ill side-effects.

2. Skip the K&N air filter, but do the K&N (a.k.a. Dynojet) or Factory stage1 jet kit. A clean OEM/replacement filter flows plenty of air... you can actually lose power with the K&N filter. The last two jet kits I bought were ~30-40 dollars on ebay.

3. Good aftermarket cans can be gotten pretty cheaply if you're patient... and will drop maybe 12-15 lbs. I'd stay away from D&D (too loud) and Vance and Hines (poor-ish quality). Maybe Hindle or Scorpion? Here's what I have on my 98 F3 (Holeshot in black satin finish) GBR600 F Series

There are a few other tricks, like a 2 to 4 degree ignition-advance or altering cam timing... but these are more suited for track-bikes.

Hiya Corvus,

You are a star!

Some great mod ideas!

Some questions if thats ok:

1) Does changing the number of teeth per sprocket play havoc with the speedometer? Any way around this? (The Police are dead hot in the UK about going over the speed limits - event by 5mph belive it or not!)

2) Keeping the old bike, I will have some more money to play with. If I get the bike properly set up - I have a specialist K&N workshop down the road - Is a K&N filter still a non starter? Or set up properly, can it actually improve performance?

I figure, get her set up once, get it done right, then enjoy. But if it makes it a bike that needs constant tuning - forget it!

Hope you can advise Corvus!

Cheers
Martin

PS:
Happy Xmas and new year to you buddy! Hope 2009 is a blinder for you!

firebladeking · 12-27-2008, 8:22 AM

Quote:

Originally Posted by marty_400

Hiya Corvus,

You are a star!

Some great mod ideas!

Some questions if thats ok:

1) Does changing the number of teeth per sprocket play havoc with the speedometer? Any way around this? (The Police are dead hot in the UK about going over the speed limits - event by 5mph belive it or not!)

2) Keeping the old bike, I will have some more money to play with. If I get the bike properly set up - I have a specialist K&N workshop down the road - Is a K&N filter still a non starter? Or set up properly, can it actually improve performance?

I figure, get her set up once, get it done right, then enjoy. But if it makes it a bike that needs constant tuning - forget it!

Hope you can advise Corvus!

Cheers
Martin

PS:
Happy Xmas and new year to you buddy! Hope 2009 is a blinder for you!

Hi Martin,

A few years ago I had a CBR600FW and I pretty much did everything you want to do to it, K&N air filter, dynojet stage 1 carb kit, Viper can, stuck it on the dyno (before and after) and I gained a whole 3 extra BHP, In hind sight i wish i never wasted my money.
The power delivery was smoother and they ironed out the power curve nicely, but in terms of extra power, which i believe you are looking for, I guarantee you, you will not feel the difference.

I found myself in a similar position to you about a month ago, where my 2001 blade needed some money spent on it, it had a small oil leak and a major service was imminent, I went down to my local Honda dealer and they offered me more than i paid for it!
so i left with a brand new blade.
My advise is if your budget will allow it, upgrade to the newer bike, you are not only buying the new engine, you are buying into years of research and development, and improvements such as braking, suspension, and handling, and not forgetting the 2 years manufacturers warranty on a new bike.
there are such good deals at the moment like the 0%APR i got, basically pay the bike off over 4 years for exactly what it costs, you cant ask for much more.

marty_400 · 12-27-2008, 4:27 PM

Quote:

Originally Posted by firebladeking

Hi Martin,

A few years ago I had a CBR600FW and I pretty much did everything you want to do to it, K&N air filter, dynojet stage 1 carb kit, Micron can, stuck it on the dyno (before and after) and I gained a whole 3 extra BHP, In hind sight i wish i never wasted my money.
The power delivery was smoother and they ironed out the power curve nicely, but in terms of extra power, which i believe you are looking for, I guarantee you, you will not feel the difference.

I found myself in a similar position to you about a month ago, where my 2001 blade needed some money spent on it, it had a small oil leak and a major service was imminent, I went down to my local Honda dealer and they offered me more than i paid for it!
so i left with a brand new blade.
My advise is if your budget will allow it, upgrade to the newer bike, you are not only buying the new engine, you are buying into years of research and development, and improvements such as braking, suspension, and handling, and not forgetting the 2 years manufacturers warranty on a new bike.
there are such good deals at the moment like the 0%APR i got, basically pay the bike off over 4 years for exactly what it costs, you cant ask for much more.

Hiya FBK,

Thanks for the devils advocate feedback! In an ideal world definately!

Money talks unfortunately! Settling down, need to think about saving money for the kiddies etc....

The GF needs a decent helmet and kit etc. It'll have to be doing up the old CBR - and worry about the next gee wizz bike in a few years time.

I'm going to use this as a good example to sons to get off their $rse and make something of themselves - so they can ride simply the best!

Cheers FBK

Martin

marty_400 · 12-27-2008, 4:32 PM

Quote:

Originally Posted by Corvus

I'd keep the older bike, and do the maintenance & some smart modifications...

I'm sure the new CBR is awesome... and lighter bikes are so nice. But new 4 cylinder bikes make their spectacular HP near the very top, and are not often more powerful in the mid-range than the older versions. For a street bike, I think it can be too much of a good thing, you know?

Anyway, here's a list of mods that could make sense:
1. 520 chain and sprockets (since you need replacements anyway). Modern chains are stronger than before, so a good 520 chain would have ~9000 lb tensile strength, which is more than the OEM 530 chain. You'll drop a pound or two of rotating mass, which will make the bike rev more quickly.

You could also change the gearing to -1 tooth front(14/43) or +3 on the rear (15/46): no additional power, but more rapid acceleration... downsides on that are reducing your top speed, and making your cruising RPM higher. The above gearing change is pretty modest though, and wouldn't create much ill side-effects.

2. Skip the K&N air filter, but do the K&N (a.k.a. Dynojet) or Factory stage1 jet kit. A clean OEM/replacement filter flows plenty of air... you can actually lose power with the K&N filter. The last two jet kits I bought were ~30-40 dollars on ebay.

3. Good aftermarket cans can be gotten pretty cheaply if you're patient... and will drop maybe 12-15 lbs. I'd stay away from D&D (too loud) and Vance and Hines (poor-ish quality). Maybe Hindle or Scorpion? Here's what I have on my 98 F3 (Holeshot in black satin finish) GBR600 F Series

There are a few other tricks, like a 2 to 4 degree ignition-advance or altering cam timing... but these are more suited for track-bikes.

I've done some research:

Ala:
2005 Honda Cbr600rr Dyno Photo
CBR 600 F 3 Dyno Numbers

BHP wise on the road, like corvus said, there is not alot in it:

1996 CBR600F3 (Plus Can and Rejetted)
@10,000RPM
BHP 77.5
Torque: 40.1

2004 CBR600RR
@10,000RPM
BHP 80.0 (3.2% % Increase)
Torque: 40.0 (% Decrease?!?!?% Does not compute!)

I imagine though, Weight Savings (16Kg lighter!), better revving and handling, all make a difference though.

Cheers
Martin

marty_400 · 12-27-2008, 4:58 PM

I'm Rambling!

Sorry the questions still remain:
Hope you can advise chaps!

Cheers
Martin

##################

Hiya Corvus,

You are a star!

Some great mod ideas!

Some questions if thats ok:

1) Does changing the number of teeth per sprocket play havoc with the speedometer? Any way around this? (The Police are dead hot in the UK about going over the speed limits - event by 5mph belive it or not!)

2) Keeping the old bike, I will have some more money to play with. If I get the bike properly set up - I have a specialist K&N workshop down the road - Is a K&N filter still a non starter? Or set up properly, can it actually improve performance?

I figure, get her set up once, get it done right, then enjoy. But if it makes it a bike that needs constant tuning - forget it!

Hope you can advise Corvus!

Cheers
Martin

PS:
Happy Xmas and new year to you buddy! Hope 2009 is a blinder for you!

firebladeking · 12-27-2008, 5:27 PM

Quote:

Originally Posted by marty_400

I'm Rambling!

Sorry the questions still remain:
Hope you can advise chaps!

Cheers
Martin

##################

Hiya Corvus,

You are a star!

Some great mod ideas!

Some questions if thats ok:

1) Does changing the number of teeth per sprocket play havoc with the speedometer? Any way around this? (The Police are dead hot in the UK about going over the speed limits - event by 5mph belive it or not!)

2) Keeping the old bike, I will have some more money to play with. If I get the bike properly set up - I have a specialist K&N workshop down the road - Is a K&N filter still a non starter? Or set up properly, can it actually improve performance?

I figure, get her set up once, get it done right, then enjoy. But if it makes it a bike that needs constant tuning - forget it!

Hope you can advise Corvus!

Cheers
Martin

PS:
Happy Xmas and new year to you buddy! Hope 2009 is a blinder for you!

Hi Martin,

to answer your questions,

1) the answer to this question lies with where your speedo cable "reads" the speed from, on older bikes a cable runs down to a gear on the front wheel, if this is the case, changing the sprockets will have no effect on the speedo as the speed is being read mechanically from the front wheel, the faster the wheel, the faster the speedo, on newer bikes the speedo is digital and is read from a sensor in the gearbox, changing the sprockets on these bikes will affect the speedo, however this can be recified by installing a speedo healer. HealTech Electronics Ltd. - Makers of the SpeedoHealer, GIpro/ATRE and X-TRE

2) this will come down to opinion, I always fit a K&N not only for the high air flow quality, but also because they can be cleaned, and re-used at every service and in the long run it will save you money instaed of having to buy a OEM filter every time.

if the bike is set up rite, it wont need constant adjustment, just your normal services.

hope this helps
neil

firebladeking · 12-27-2008, 5:53 PM

This thead has got me looking at pic's of my cbr600, I really loved that bike, i rode it hard and it never let me down, It was also my first "real" sports bike, they are good machines.
couple of pic's of my old 6

marty_400 · 12-27-2008, 8:08 PM

Quote:

Originally Posted by firebladeking

This thead has got me looking at pic's of my cbr600, I really loved that bike, i rode it hard and it never let me down, It was also my first "real" sports bike, they are good machines.
couple of pic's of my old 6

Hiya FBK,

Thanks for the replies to my questions!

I'll have to pull out the haynes manual when I'm back home, to check about where the speed is read from. I'm vaguely guessing I read it was from the front sprocket side though.

Wow the cbr6 you had looked fab! Well looked after. Puts my poor one to shame. (My 1st big bike as well. I had a slide on her in the 1st 4 months, up a welsh mountain road, and that kinda calmed me down! I got the big cracks repaired, and never got around to doing the rest. May do a full restoration at some point, if I decide I'm going to keep her long term - after my performance mods.)

Have a great sunday - hope the weather is niced for you to go out for a ride!

Cheers
Martin

DougDeGood07 · 12-28-2008, 11:45 PM

I say, if your finances allow it, go ahead and pick up a decently modified double r. Bikes are cheaper right now due to the economy. Wish you the best of luck.

Destructo · 12-29-2008, 12:22 PM

How about another option - Sell the 600 and buy an old 'Blade? You can get nicely kept / low mile 900's for £2500 or less - more performance than you'd get than spending on your 600 (you might even get a good deal on a 'Blade with some extras thrown in?).

Insurance is pretty reasonable once you have a few years NCB too.

Just a thought..... it's what I did!

Twincam · 12-29-2008, 1:05 PM

Quote:

Originally Posted by Destructo

How about another option - Sell the 600 and buy an old 'Blade? You can get nicely kept / low mile 900's for £2500 or less - more performance than you'd get than spending on your 600 (you might even get a good deal on a 'Blade with some extras thrown in?).

Can't believe I didn't think about that...

An "OLD" 'Blade might be better (in terms of money and also your power thirst) but then again, it all depends on your status.

As you will be saving money by keeping the 600 (if you do), make sure you spend it wisely or save it.

firebladeking · 12-29-2008, 1:13 PM

Quote:

Originally Posted by Destructo

How about another option - Sell the 600 and buy an old 'Blade? You can get nicely kept / low mile 900's for £2500 or less - more performance than you'd get than spending on your 600 (you might even get a good deal on a 'Blade with some extras thrown in?).

Insurance is pretty reasonable once you have a few years NCB too.

Just a thought..... it's what I did!

that's also what did, i went from a 1998 cbr600f to 2001 cbr929 and with the 1 year NCB from the 600 my premiums didn't even go up.
I got the 929 off ebay for £2100.