[Cbrfrenzie]

Hello all, I recently purchased a 00 929RR to replace my 92 F2, so I finally have something I can toy with for the track! My goal is to create the ULTIMATE CBR600F- series track bike that will SPANK the new bikes out there! I realize this will not be an easy task, however I'm an Electronics Engineer with a fabrication and machinist background, therefore I believe anything is possible!!! I wanted to start a thread to get insight from everyone on this forum with experience in racing and setting up a bike for the track. I've already been talking with "jneedee" in the thread F2 vs F3 vs F4? about braking. I decided to use this bike vs any other bike because of the following:
1) I already own the bike, and know every shake the bike makes from experience.
2) The bike is stripped down and is quite light already.
3) The bike already has a great deal of engine work done.
4) The bike has been adapted for an F4i fuel injection setup, including the larger F4i gas tank.

Here's what I want to do to get it ready for a track:

1) Shave as much weight as possible.
2) Install f4i race plastic with custom alum front stay and f4i gauges (going to have to do something with the speedo input if i want to display speed) for greater aerodynamics.
3) F4i ECU and harness so I can toss the MegaSquirt and run a PC5.
4) Upgrade front brakes to floating rotor setup with upgraded pads
5) Upgrade rear rotor to a lighter EBC or Galfer rotor and upgraded pads. - optional, up for discussion.
6) Upgrade fork springs for my weight, and setup bikes suspension (does anyone have a good cheap bolt on rear shock solution??? I've heard that the F3 and F4 rear shocks are an upgrade, comments???)
7) Aluminum rear sets and clip-ons with minimum controlls (suggestions as to what brand, and what angle clip-ons are the most track friendly?)
8) Install a steering damper (suggestions on a brand, the only one I can find is a HyperPro for the F2)
9) F3 radiator (greater capacity) - optional - up for discussion.
10) 97-98 F3 oil pan (greater capacity) - optional, up for discussion.
11) Safety wire everything!

I'm going to break this down into 3 categories:
1) Suspension and Brakes
2) Engine, Electronics, Performance and Tuning
3) Bodywork, Aerodynamics and Weight Savings

If anyone sees anything I'm missing here, or wants to suggest an optional item or route to take I am 100% open to any and all suggestions you all have, that's the point of this thread!!!

[Cbrfrenzie]

Here is the bike before I laid it down at the track (very low speed low side). I repainted it myself using my HVLP top feed spray gun, using the 3 different under coats needed for plastic, and a gloss block with silver flake top coat. It was supposed to have a touch of silver flake in it, but the guy at the paint shop mixed it wrong and put wayyyyyy too much in, resulting in this. I didn't like it at first, but it has grown on me and I love the color now . Also is a pic from my first track day ever, at a private track in Montana.

[Cbrfrenzie]

First up is the front brakes. Everyone who has ever owned an F2 knows that the front brakes suck major ass, and warp the first time you REALLY use them in a race situation with aggressive pads. I'm currently on my 3rd set, and they are warped big time from my last track day. I've been researching and have actually came up with quite a few alternatives I can use, while still using the F2 front wheel. My initial thought was to get and F3 front wheel/rotors/calipers/forks/master cylinder and run the updated floating rotor design on the F3's. Well, I've purchased everything except the forks and master cylinder, and recently came across the floating rotor conversion kit for the F2 wheel.

EBC makes a really nice kit, and with my discount I can get this setup with HH pads for $350:Ron Ayers Motorsports - Motorcycle, ATV, Jet Ski and Generators Parts and Accessories

I also found these on Ebay, which are much cheaper, however still solid and factory diameter. I don't see a brand name on them though, so I'm a bit leary: http://cgi.ebay.com/ebaymotors/HONDA-FRONT-Brake-Disc-Pads-CBR-600-CBR600-F-F2-87-94_W0QQitemZ350213234928QQcmdZViewItemQQptZMotorcy cles_Parts_Accessories?hash=item518a55e0f0&_trksid =p4506.c0.m245&_trkparms=65%3A12|39%3A1|72%3A1171

Ferodo makes a set of solid replacement rotors as well for $300, but again, they are solid.

I just found these too, which appear to be an alternative to the EBC floating setup. Does anyone have any experience with this company and/or rotors?? Welcome to METAL GEAR

I'm thinking of selling my F3 wheel and 2 sets of F3 rotors and buy the EBC 310mm floating conversion kit. Anyone interested in trading?

I'm also working on a solo tail, with a fiber glassed rear cutout that fits a 954 LED tail light. Once that is finished up and installed I'll post pics of that. I had to chop the back of the sub-frame off and weld an under-tail sheet metal splash guard, to box in what was left for support, and to act as mounting locations for all the electronics. Pics soon to come on that.

[Tulok]

900rr brakes?
900rr wheel?

how about some USD forks?

It will take alot to make it spank a new bike methinks, but it should turn out to be really sweet

custom aluminum subframe with no consideration for a passenger?

just a few thoughts.

[Cbrfrenzie]

Originally Posted by Tulok

900rr brakes?900rr wheel?
how about some USD forks?

I thought of using the later 900rr front end, but then I got to thinking.... The 900rr forks and brakes are heavier then the F2 setup. I installed the 94 F2 forks (which are the updated cartridge style seen in the F3's), so with some good springs and a properly setup suspension, I think the current forks should be sufficient. Does anyone with real track experience with a properly setup F3 suspension?

Originally Posted by Tulok

It will take alot to make it spank a new bike methinks, but it should turn out to be really sweet
custom aluminum sub-frame with no consideration for a passenger?
just a few thoughts.

I agree this will not be easy, however if it were easy, then it would be no fun! I guess I should re-phrase this as "Be competetive with the new bikes", as spanking the new bikes would be a task the for the engineers at Honda... lol. However, at the track day pictured above I was walking away from a fellow rider on a ninja 636 down the front straight, so I know the straight lines will not be an issue, as long as I can lighten the crank and raise the redline closer to the newer machines . Its the parts between the straights that the newer bikes have 1 up on me.

And YES, and all aluminum sub-frame is one of my plans, with a bolt on mount welded to the steel frame, this should save a good amount of weight. My current steel sub-frame is hacked off tho, so the passenger support is now gone. I've got a nice Tig setup accessible and I love welding aluminum!

How about the stock steel swingarm??? Should I brace it like what was done here: Musclecross.com - From The Ground Up , or is it worth it to modify the 600rr aluminum swing arm and rear suspension?

[ghbzorro]

You like to weld aluminium, but how are you with carbon fibre?? Because I think you should make a carbon fibre monocoque replacement for your tail plastics and the subframe.

[Cbrfrenzie]

Originally Posted by ghbzorro

You like to weld aluminium, but how are you with carbon fibre?? Because I think you should make a carbon fibre monocoque replacement for your tail plastics and the subframe.

That is an AMAZING idea! I've never worked with CF before but I have worked with fiber glass. After searching for a few mins, I came accross this one, designed for the CBR 600 F models! Durbahn Shop - Fibre Products Monocoque - Tailsections (Durbahn) The price comes to a steep ~$936 .... However it is still reachable. I may go this route, after everything else is done. I think this thing is sexy as hell!!! Here it is installed on an F4i: 600 CBR PC 35 Monocoque ENGL In order to make this work on my F2, I will have to build an aluminum frame to suit the mounting points of the F4i tank and this carbon monoque tail, and bolt it to the frame. Does not seem very hard at all now that I'm thinking about it..... hmmmm

I went ahead and ordered the EBC floating 310mm conversion kit, with the EBC HH compound pads. I may get a pair of the organic compound pads, depending on the feel of this setup once I get the bike on the road. So a new pair of pads and possibly a Galfer lightweight rotor for the rear, and brakes are DONE!

My next step is the factory F4i ECU, harness and Power Commander 5. I've heard the 2000 F4i ECU had some bugs in it, and the 2001 F4i ECU had them sorted out. Can anyone else confirm this??? If so I will go for the 2001 model, and.... Does anybody out there have an F4i ECU and harness they want to sell me? I would be open for trading a quick shifter or PC3USB for them .

[ghbzorro]

Originally Posted by Cbrfrenzie

That is an AMAZING idea! I've never worked with CF before but I have worked with fiber glass. After searching for a few mins, I came accross this one, designed for the CBR 600 F models! Durbahn Shop - Fibre Products Monocoque - Tailsections (Durbahn) The price comes to a steep ~$936 .... However it is still reachable. I may go this route, after everything else is done.

Yeah, that's where I got the idea from. That guy has some sweet stuff for sale.

[Cbrfrenzie]

A little update, spent the day finishing up the solo tail section with integrated 954 tail light. The front mounting tabs do NOT line up with the frame mounts, wonder what the deal there is.... came out good though I think. I might need to cut and move one set of mounts on the frame, so there is at least one mounting point up front. The sub frame is going to be hacked off soon anyway, so not like it matters .

http://i617.photobucket.com/albums/t...r954lLight.jpg
http://i617.photobucket.com/albums/t.../SoloRear1.jpg

[Cbrfrenzie]

Does anybody know anything about the late model (84-89) VFR 700 aluminum swingarms??? Looking at them on ebay they are aluminum and look almost identical to my steel F2 swingarm. I might pick one up since they are sooo cheap just to see if it fits. If it does fit I could fab up some some aluminum bracing and I bet it would still be lighter then stock. I would think the double sided swingarms are more rigid then the later model single sided versions, What do you all think?? I'm going for rigidity and lightness here!

1984 honda vf 700 vfr vf 700f interceptor swingarm:eBay Motors (item 260356189960 end time Aug-01-09 07:45:54 PDT)

1986 HONDA VFR750 VFR 750 SWINGARM:eBay Motors (item 350076240857 end time Jul-28-09 20:12:31 PDT)

http://cgi.ebay.com/ebaymotors/1987-HONDA-VFR700-VFR-700-SWINGARM-SWING-ARM_W0QQitemZ330343294943QQcmdZViewItemQQptZMotorc ycles_Parts_Accessories?hash=item4ce9fea7df&_trksi d=p4506.c0.m245&_trkparms=65%3A12|39%3A1|72%3A1171

[Billygoat]

I have an extra stock F2 frame I'm trying to convince a buddy to duplicate in aluminum.

[Cbrfrenzie]

Originally Posted by Billygoat

I have an extra stock F2 frame I'm trying to convince a buddy to duplicate in aluminum.

Interesting idea. I wonder if it would be easier to use the F4 frame, however it would be more fun to fab one up with emphasis on making it as light as possible. I've seen some custom bikes with custom chromolly tube frames, similar to the Ducati frames. How fun would it be to have a low-ish 300lb F2!

[313racing]

after reading your initial post, i thought that you were turning the F2 into a track only bike? just looked a pic and saw a tail light? is the bike going to be a street bike that you take to a track day here and there? if you build a very pretty street bike, you will crash it trying to go fast or "spank" modern bikes.

i won a WERA national championship racing a F3 and know quite a bit about them now. here's what i can tell you:

suspension is where you need to spend your money first:

the way honda designed the F2/3 was to have a bit of fork flex. if you go and put a modern USD front end on the bike, the forks will not flex and all of that energy will be transformed to the chassis. no good.

i suggest having some F3 forks built by a race tuner for you and trying that route first. if you are dead set on bigger front end cause you want it to look cooler, go with a F4(i) or pre '04 R6. there is a pretty fast guy currently racing an old F2 with a '03 R6 front end this year and has been doing well. keep in mind that miguel + crew loved the F3 and didn't share the same enthusiasm for the F4 in race trim. oh yeah, F3 brakes are way better than F2.

rear shock. get an ohlins or fox twin clicker. do not let someone talk you in to revalving a OEM shock, or even using a newer OEM shock that may be compatible etc. once an OEM shock heats up at the track you will get ejected.

unless you're all about fabricating this and that for shits and giggles and to look cooler, here's the best way to go fast on that bike:

F3 front end (set up by race tuner)
F3 airbox (for ram air)
ohlins shock (or fox)
aftermarket rearsets (woodcraft are strongest, attack are trick)
aftermarket clip ons (woodcraft)
full exhaust, factory jet kit (tuned on dyno)
SLICKS - 120/70 front, 160/60 rear (these bikes love slicks better than dots)
if you get up to speed on the track with this set up, then go ahead and put a 2mm wiseco piston kit in it and have the head gone through. you'll get just over 100 hp on pump gas.

here's what i've seen done if you're not happy with the above set up:
900RR swingarm/wheel/shock - takes a bit of fabrication
900RR front end - more adjustability but heavier
'04 gsxr750 calipers on F3 forks with custom fabricated mounting bracket
complete '03/4 R6 front end
feel free to cut the subframe all the way down to the main frame and make brackets for your custom aluminum sub since you're good with a torch
remove stator and go total loss with no battery

if you go to wera.com and read under the "vintage" section of the bbs you will find a lot of guys who race F2/3 and will be happy to share info. have you ever raced or done track days? if so, where?

cheers.

[313racing]

sorry man, didn't completely read your post about doing a track day.

also forgot to mention that the hyperpro damper is the **** for the F2/3.

[Cbrfrenzie]

Originally Posted by 313racing

after reading your initial post, i thought that you were turning the F2 into a track only bike? just looked a pic and saw a tail light? is the bike going to be a street bike that you take to a track day here and there? if you build a very pretty street bike, you will crash it trying to go fast or "spank" modern bikes.

The tail section I just installed I had laying around for many years now. After everything else is completed on the bike I'm thinking of going to the F4i or 600rr plastics, so this is merely there to cover the ass end until that day comes

Originally Posted by 313racing

i won a WERA national championship racing a F3 and know quite a bit about them now. here's what i can tell you:

suspension is where you need to spend your money first:

the way honda designed the F2/3 was to have a bit of fork flex. if you go and put a modern USD front end on the bike, the forks will not flex and all of that energy will be transformed to the chassis. no good.

i suggest having some F3 forks built by a race tuner for you and trying that route first. if you are dead set on bigger front end cause you want it to look cooler, go with a F4(i) or pre '04 R6. there is a pretty fast guy currently racing an old F2 with a '03 R6 front end this year and has been doing well. keep in mind that miguel + crew loved the F3 and didn't share the same enthusiasm for the F4 in race trim. oh yeah, F3 brakes are way better than F2.

rear shock. get an ohlins or fox twin clicker. do not let someone talk you in to revalving a OEM shock, or even using a newer OEM shock that may be compatible etc. once an OEM shock heats up at the track you will get ejected.

Thank you soooo much, this is EXACTLY the input I have been waiting for! I have the 94 cartridge style forks, which are identical to the F3 fork innerads and have the adjustment on the top as well as the bottom of the fork. So a set of Race Tech springs for my weight and custom valving tuned by someone that knows what they are doing would be sufficient for my application? I understand the fork flex and would like to keep it as engineered by Honda, for obvious reasons like you stated above. Quality aftermarket rear shock, check! I dont care so much on looks, however i do like things to look "clean and tidy". I know I will crash numerous times, hell I already have , so a snazzy paint job isn't on my list.... just some nice aero body work I can replace cheaply.

Originally Posted by 313racing

F3 front end (set up by race tuner)
F3 airbox (for ram air)
ohlins shock (or fox)
aftermarket rearsets (woodcraft are strongest, attack are trick)
aftermarket clip ons (woodcraft)
full exhaust, factory jet kit (tuned on dyno)
SLICKS - 120/70 front, 160/60 rear (these bikes love slicks better than dots)

if you get up to speed on the track with this set up, then go ahead and put a 2mm wiseco piston kit in it and have the head gone through. you'll get just over 100 hp on pump gas.

here's what i've seen done if you're not happy with the above set up:
900RR swingarm/wheel/shock - takes a bit of fabrication
900RR front end - more adjustability but heavier
'04 gsxr750 calipers on F3 forks with custom fabricated mounting bracket
complete '03/4 R6 front end
feel free to cut the subframe all the way down to the main frame and make brackets for your custom aluminum sub since you're good with a torch
remove stator and go total loss with no battery

if you go to wera.com and read under the "vintage" section of the bbs you will find a lot of guys who race F2/3 and will be happy to share info. have you ever raced or done track days? if so, where?

cheers.

Again great info! I'm curious in the 900rr swingarm/wheel/shock setup. What does this gain me vs the stock F2 hardware besides a wider rear wheel? I would think the swingarm would be more rigid, but is it heavier? Also are the rear shock options for the 900rr greater then for the 600 F2? The stock subframe is about half gone already, and so is the rear tray. I also just installed my new EBC 310mm floating rotor setup with the EBC HH compound pads for my F2 front wheel (since I already have cartridge shocks for the F2 wheel) vs upgrading the forks for an F3 front wheel/brake setup. After the caliper brackets come in I will post up some pictures and impressions.

I am going to install an F4i wiring harness, ignition pickup and ECU so that I can run install a Power Commander and tune the bike for all ranges of operation (resulting in a super smooth Air Fuel Ratio curve) and also removes the need to change jetting depending on the elevation of the track I am at, and also for better throttle response and power down low. Any thoughts on this???? Obviously I could not run a total loss setup with this, which would be the only downfall I can come up with.

Keep it coming guys, you have already helped me TREMENDOUSLY!!!!

[Billygoat]

Hey! You find a harness yet? I can't wait toget my bike back on the road. Just waiting on the manual tensioner. What kind of HP are you looking for? I wonder what the max HP you could get out of a 600.

[313racing]

max power depends on so many factors. are you talking about built to the wall to last one 20 lap race, or talking about a reliable built street motor? a good build with pump gas would be about 100-110. 4-6 more with race fuel. when building one of these motors, i suggest sticking with a 2mm kit. waaay more reliable.

the advantage of the 900rr swingarm is that it's aluminum and it's braced. although quite a bit beefier/stronger than the F2/3 swingarms, i bet it doesn't weigh any more. this does also give you the ability to run a 180 on the wider 900rr wheel. on the track using a F3 rear wheel, a 160 slick works better than a 180. turns in quicker and has tons of grip. the 180 actually spins up more. 180 is a bit too wide for the F3 wheel.

again, i would stick with the F3 swingarm and see how the bike feels after having the forks and shock set up for your weight. it will make a huge difference.

with regards to converting to fuel injection......do it. i've yet to see it done. be the first kid on the block!

give this guy a shout about your suspension. he used to race F2's back in the day and has set up two of my F3's, including the bike that i won the national championship on...
james@totalracingsolutions.com

he's done a few bikes for the wera boys and everyone gives him rave reviews.

late

[Cbrfrenzie]

Originally Posted by 313racing

max power depends on so many factors. are you talking about built to the wall to last one 20 lap race, or talking about a reliable built street motor? a good build with pump gas would be about 100-110. 4-6 more with race fuel. when building one of these motors, i suggest sticking with a 2mm kit. waaay more reliable.

I planned on building a race gas motor that would last at least a seasons of hard riding, not something loose for that extra 2-3 HP that lasts a single 20 lap race. When you say "sticking with a 2mm kit" are you talking about the big bore kit, or bearing kit or what???

Originally Posted by 313racing

The advantage of the 900rr swingarm is that it's aluminum and it's braced. although quite a bit beefier/stronger than the F2/3 swingarms, i bet it doesn't weigh any more. this does also give you the ability to run a 180 on the wider 900rr wheel. on the track using a F3 rear wheel, a 160 slick works better than a 180. turns in quicker and has tons of grip. the 180 actually spins up more. 180 is a bit too wide for the F3 wheel.

I love my 160 currently on my 4.5" wheel, however I have never ridden a bike with the 5" rear wheel (some F3's) with a 160, just the factory 4.5" wheel on my F2. So a 900rr 5.5" rear wheel with a 180 slick gives the best turn-in on that setup?

Originally Posted by 313racing

again, i would stick with the F3 swingarm and see how the bike feels after having the forks and shock set up for your weight. it will make a huge difference.

I've got an F2 swingarm on my F2, but I'm almost positive they are identical, or the F3 might be slightly wider to accomidate the 5" rear wheel.

Originally Posted by 313racing

with regards to converting to fuel injection......do it. i've yet to see it done. be the first kid on the block!

I JUST purchased a 03 600rr COMPLETE airbox and throttle bodies (thats right, dual injector banks ) with harness, relays, ECU and regulator/rectifier for $130 shipped!!!! I currently have 01 F4i complete airbox and throttle bodies, but I was still missing the ECU and harness. This way I can play with the two setups and see just how much better the dual injector banks are! Plus, after the secondary fuel module comes out for the Dynojet PC5 I can control all 8 of them .

Originally Posted by 313racing

give this guy a shout about your suspension. he used to race F2's back in the day and has set up two of my F3's, including the bike that i won the national championship on...
james@totalracingsolutions.com

he's done a few bikes for the wera boys and everyone gives him rave reviews.

late

Will do! Thanks again for all your input, much appreciated! I'll keep everyone up to date on the Fuel Injection setup and progress!!!