cam tensionors and guide noise

Billygoat · 07-11-2009, 11:56 PM

Hey, I had some noise when driving at low rpm/speed that sounded like something hitting the fan. Although the noise was coming from the right top side of the engine. Yesterday I tore the bike down and inspected the cam chain guide right beside the cams. The guide had wear marks, so the chain was rubbing the plastic guide. The guide was loose were it's attatched to the top plate that it is mounted to. Thus the noise I was hearing. So, now my question is: Has anyone had problems with thier tensionors, and what have they done to solve cam slap.

Bike is a 98 Honda F3, With 92 F2 engine
Falicon Supercrank
Megacycle cams
DynoJets
40 thou over pistions 1mm
head work: milled,oil ported

The bike runs strong with stock gearing, noise is driving me crazy, cuz it only happens slowind down to a stop.
Thanks for any help
Goat

Cbrfrenzie · 07-13-2009, 11:22 AM

Goat,
I went through 3 factory Cam Chain Tensioners before I switched to the APE manual tensioner. I've been running the APE tensioner for over 10k miles with zero problems. Just had to tighten it the other day actually for the second time since I installed it. As long as you service your bike regularly and check your tension regularly, I would deff go this route! Also, I've heard that bikes that rev quicker and have higher compression have increased piston speeds in which the stock oil pressure tensioner can not keep up with the cam chain durring accell and decell.

From your mods, looks like this may be your case

.

Billygoat · 07-13-2009, 1:09 PM

Thanks cbrfrenzie,
It's interesting that the F2 and F3 tensioners are not the same. After building the F2 engine and getting huge gains in power I was really worried about the noise till I opened it up last week. Seeing the slack in the chain and finding the top guide (plastic) had movement was a relief cuz I was thinking the valve was touching the piston. Checking the valve clearances today. Were did you buy your ape tensioner? Do you ride F2 or F3?

Cbrfrenzie · 07-13-2009, 5:53 PM

Quote:

Originally Posted by Billygoat

Thanks cbrfrenzie,
It's interesting that the F2 and F3 tensioners are not the same. After building the F2 engine and getting huge gains in power I was really worried about the noise till I opened it up last week. Seeing the slack in the chain and finding the top guide (plastic) had movement was a relief cuz I was thinking the valve was touching the piston. Checking the valve clearances today. Were did you buy your ape tensioner? Do you ride F2 or F3?

I ride a 92 F2, just like you

. Here's my build: 1992 CBR 600 F2 Race Bike Build and Discussion
I run the APE manual chain tensioner, as found here: CBR ZONE
How do you like the big bore and cams?? What was the turn around time on your crank from Falicon? I've been thinking about the same process, but I also found this:Honda Cranks and Connecting Rods.... The process is HALF the price as the work done from Falicon, any recommendations??? Also, was the "Ultra-light Super Crank" option available for our crankshaft, along with the "Super Crank" option??

Also, are you still running stock valves / springs and retainers? If not what set did you go with? Also, what cams did you choose, the x1, x2 or x3 grind? How how is your street-ability with them? Not that it matters, we all spend our time up at red-line anyway, right

.

Billygoat · 07-13-2009, 10:26 PM

Hey, I like the bigger bore, lots of power. I ran the stock engine with gearing, 1 down in front and 3 up in the rear: with this engine it runs like that with stock gearing. I have to push the bars down to keep the front tire down. Also can break the tire loose at cruising speeds and do a burn out. It's nutz!! The crank was done when I bought it. It's from Team U.S.A. and is engraved. I think it is the ultra light one because I can't belive the differance between a stock. Over 1.1 lbs off!!! As for the cams, well if you know a little about them please share!! I recieved two sets and didn't know which to put in. Do you know about how to tell apart other than measuring the lobes? Like color code, or stamps?

Thanks

Cbrfrenzie · 07-14-2009, 12:42 AM

Quote:

Originally Posted by Billygoat

Hey, I like the bigger bore, lots of power. I ran the stock engine with gearing, 1 down in front and 3 up in the rear: with this engine it runs like that with stock gearing. I have to push the bars down to keep the front tire down.

I know the feeling! I've got every front sproket avaliable for the F2, so for awhile there I was running a -2 front and +3 rear

. Top speed suffered, but wheeeelie time!

Quote:

Originally Posted by Billygoat

As for the cams, well if you know a little about them please share!! I recieved two sets and didn't know which to put in. Do you know about how to tell apart other than measuring the lobes? Like color code, or stamps?
Thanks

So you recieved 2 sets of Mega Cycle cams with the purchase of the bike? Can you email me a pic of your spare set? I went to their catalog: http://www.megacyclecams.com/catalog.../page%2033.pdf and they show lots of different grinds for our bike. Some of the more aggressive grinds, x3 and higher, require stiffer valve springs, that's why I asked if you were running a set. If so then you are most likely running the more aggressive cams, then the street upgrade ones which are the x1 and x2. Without measuring, the next easiest thing to do would be call them up and see if the company can identify them by their markings. Depending on your second set, and if you're willing, I would be interesting in purchasing those cams from you to aid in my track-bike build

.

Have you done anything for ignition on your F2? I'm running a Dynatek Dyna2000 controller, and it netted me BIG torque gains down low. I bet it would do wonders for your setup!

I'm curious about your bike, what all have you done to it??

Billygoat · 07-15-2009, 12:08 AM

Hey,
I bought the 98 F3 for racing in 98. First week I had it, took the carbs off, re-jetted for Full Hindle exhaust, k&n,rear sets,ohlins rear shock,rebuilt forks. Raced it that year, then found a guy in maryland willing to sell: F2 block and a whole bunch off goodies, like the crank and a head worked by some guy that was to know what he was doing. My mistake on the engraving, it says Team America, not team U.S.A. Anyway built the bike with all the parts and put the motor in my F3. When apart I noticed changes to the gears in the trans. Second gear is pretty close with first, unlike my F3.
gtg
later

Billygoat · 07-15-2009, 1:30 AM

So you put fuel inj. on your F2? Wow that would take all the fun out of jetting.

I'm interested in the cams, what diferences they have. I didn't get much info on them when I bought them. I measured the lobes, and went with the largest. The color stamped on it was yellow , the 2nd set is white.
The crank in the link you sent don't look like mine. Mine is way more polished!!

Cbrfrenzie · 07-15-2009, 10:08 AM

Quote:

Originally Posted by Billygoat

Hey,
I bought the 98 F3 for racing in 98. First week I had it, took the carbs off, re-jetted for Full Hindle exhaust, k&n,rear sets,ohlins rear shock,rebuilt forks. Raced it that year, then found a guy in maryland willing to sell: F2 block and a whole bunch off goodies, like the crank and a head worked by some guy that was to know what he was doing. My mistake on the engraving, it says Team America, not team U.S.A. Anyway built the bike with all the parts and put the motor in my F3. When apart I noticed changes to the gears in the trans. Second gear is pretty close with first, unlike my F3.
gtg
later

Wow, that's the way to do it! Sounds like you scored there big time! I've been searching for used or race take off parts for the F2 engine all over the web with little to no luck. If you have any spare parts you will never use send me a PM, I'll most likely scarf them up!

So do you have race gauges? In other words what did you do for your speedo input, since the F2 block does not have the sensor on the output shaft?

Cbrfrenzie · 07-15-2009, 10:36 AM

Quote:

Originally Posted by Billygoat

So you put fuel inj. on your F2? Wow that would take all the fun out of jetting.

I'm interested in the cams, what diferences they have. I didn't get much info on them when I bought them. I measured the lobes, and went with the largest. The color stamped on it was yellow , the 2nd set is white.

Yes I did fuel inj my F2. I used the F4i throttle bodies and air box, notched the frame for the TPS sensor clearance, and use the shity MegaSquirt V2 stand alone fuel controller. My bike never ran as good as it did with the carbs on it, which was the fuel controllers fault for not having enuf balls or resolution to controll a 600cc motorcycle. WOT was awesome, but anything else was "glitchy". I could never get the accel enrichment tuned correctly. Now I plan on installing an F4i ECU and harness, so I can get that FACTORY HONDA fuel control

, then install a Power Commander 5 and tune for my engine and mods. Don't get me wrong, I reallly do love my carbs, especially in the jetting state they are currently in, but after 8+ years of jetting them a custom fuel injection controller seems like fun now

. Also, I do all the jetting for my friends and co-workers using the dyno at my work, I'm very good at tuning carbs and I still enjoy it

. Also, my AFR's seemed to oscillate under WOT with the carbs, never very smooth, and I hope to tune that out with the FI and Power Commander.... there's just sooo much power I'm loosing down low from the carbs (due to the oscillating AFR's).

Do you remember the lobe heigth measurements you took from the two sets (both I and E)? If you give me those values I'm sure I can figoure out what you have! Looking at the spreadsheet for cams from MegaCycle, it breaks down like this:
X1 - slightly higher lift and more duration then stock, degreed -2 and +1.5 degrees for I and E from factory lobe centers. Can use stock pistons and springs.
X2 - European Superbike grind - stock lift, increased duration, degreed -2 and +1.5 degrees for I and E. Can use stock pistons and springs
X3 - Same as the X1, except the E cam has more lift, and both I and E have -2 and +1.5 degrees over factory. RACING PISTONS and SPRINGS REQUIRED.
X5 and up - Drag race cams for top end increase.

Unless you have upgraded valve springs, I'm guessing you have both the X1 and X2 sets. If you have upgraded springs in that ported head, then you most likey have the X3 installed, and the X2 for the smaller set. Do you have slotted cam gears, and have you had to degree the cams at all? I love these F2 engines

. I've got 42,000 miles on the ticker, and she still loves redline

. With my Dyna2000 ignition controller, it keeps a histogram of time vs RPM, so you can see where you spend most your time in the RPM range. Each time I pull that info, it amazes me that I can log HOURS of use at redline and the bike still runs like it does... GO HONDA!!!

.

Billygoat · 07-15-2009, 12:35 PM

Wow! Thanks for the info. I'm interested in this Dyna2000 your talking about. No I don't have adjustable cam sprockets, and yes the head does have different springs. I recieved two extra heads with the engine. One was crazy milled and worked on, and the other just had springs and cams done to it. I do have specs on lobe height cuz it was hard to know which cams to put in. Sounds like I have the 2x grind, but will give you specs. I do own a digital cailiper. Do your cams say R1, or R2 on them? Wondering if this is an indicator, there are other markings on them. I'm working on checking the shims now. (have a week off) So the motor is opened up(top end). I love working on the F2, F3's. Your real lucky to have a dyno around. Mines been on a dyno only once with stock motor, just jetting and exhaust.
I'll find my little black book on specs.

Billygoat · 07-15-2009, 1:42 PM

O.k here goes.. I measured tight, and touching, not giving room for movement. You might have to convert to metric. These numbers are almost ten years old, so if I remember right from my notes I started at the cam gear and worked my way towards the flywheel,

IntakeC7rR2) blue dot
1.4230 1.4235 1.4240 1.4250 1.4230 1.4230 1.4235 1.4245

Intake (BFR2) in the bike now
1.4265 1.4280 1.4285 1.4250 1.4245 1.4270 1.4240 1.4240

Intake (GWR1) stock F3 1998
1.4300 1.4300 1.4300 1.4295 1.4290 1.4290 1.4280 1.4290

Exhaust (C4R2) Blue dot
1.4110 1.4005 1.3975 1.3965 1.3970 1.3965 1.3945 1.3935

Exhaust (K7R2) In bike now
1.3965 1.3970 1.3935 1.3985 1.3970 1.4000 1.3990 1.4040

Exhaust (L3R1) stock
no info

Here's the thing, I was looking for the large differances between the cams that led me to put the ones in that I did.

Cbrfrenzie · 07-15-2009, 4:34 PM

I forgot, I need your base circle measurement for each cam to calculate the lift. This is the smallest diameter on the lobes. It also appears these cams are re-grinds, also noted on the cam catalog page (on customers cores). Thats why your aftermarket cams have an overall smaller dimensions then the stock cams.

Billygoat · 07-15-2009, 5:26 PM

ok, I don't know if I'm measuring right. Do I measure the height with the caliper tight, or so I can roll the lobe back and forth? I can measure the base on the blue dot ones. Explain regrind for me please. I took lobe height max as in opening the longest. (furthest) would u prefer metric? I can measure them again. What did you do with the speedo on your bike? The F3 motor has a pick -up, F2 used front wheel. I'm using a magnet pick up on the rear wheel for approx. which sucks cuz it's never dead on and way to slow.

Billygoat · 07-15-2009, 5:30 PM

Hey!! I found a number in my notes one set is 179x1 now which set i don't know!! Please explain the easiest way to check. Thanks

Cbrfrenzie · 07-15-2009, 5:59 PM

Quote:

Originally Posted by Billygoat

Hey!! I found a number in my notes one set is 179x1 now which set i don't know!! Please explain the easiest way to check. Thanks

Nice, well that's one set down! Take the measurement so the lobe barely squeaks through, as in it takes some resistance. That's how i measure with my micrometer anyway. The height of the lobe just means the valve opens further into the cylinder (lift), where as if the lobe is fatter, the valve is open for a longer period of time (duration). Same lift with greater duration can gain power, just as higher lift with the same duration can.

A cam regrind basically means they re-grind the stock cams to a different spec. Since you are starting with a stock cam, and not a cam blank, the base circle is ground down the least amount possible, while still attaining the desired profile that the cam is being "re-ground" to. This is why your aftermarket cams measure smaller then your stock ones. I bet if you measured the base circle on the stockers vs the MegaCycle ones they would be different.

Billygoat · 07-15-2009, 6:15 PM

Thanks,
Base circle being larger on the stock ones?
I've been trying to get the valve clearances on the ones in the motor. I don't remember it being so hard to get the rotation right. (Have to find by haynes, with other notes) I have a hard time getting 2 & 4 cyl. seems the lobes are touching, or still pushing on the bucket. The lobes r to be straight up when measuriing right? Could this be because of the cams being #3?

Tempting to pull it out of the frame. If the clearances r not good I will pull it, then I can measure those cams.
Thanks for the info, If I do infact have two sets of megacycle cams and not just one, I'd consider trading u for something.

Cbrfrenzie · 07-15-2009, 6:41 PM

Quote:

Originally Posted by Billygoat

Thanks,
Base circle being larger on the stock ones?

Yeah, as in the measurements in your post for the stock cams are bigger then the ones for the other cams. This is cuz the stock cams have not been "re-ground" to a new profile.

Quote:

Originally Posted by Billygoat

I've been trying to get the valve clearances on the ones in the motor. I don't remember it being so hard to get the rotation right. (Have to find by haynes, with other notes) I have a hard time getting 2 & 4 cyl. seems the lobes are touching, or still pushing on the bucket. The lobes r to be straight up when measuring right? Could this be because of the cams being #3?

Yes, larger lift will make the tolerances a bit smaller. And yes, you want to measure with the lobe pointing straight up in the air. Also make sure there is no hydraulic effect pushing the shim or bucket up slightly.

Quote:

Originally Posted by Billygoat

Thanks for the info, If I do infact have two sets of megacycle cams and not just one, I'd consider trading u for something.

Excellent, I like the sound of that!!!

Billygoat · 07-15-2009, 6:45 PM

Here are some measurements I did on the bike. One lobe is exposed on the flywheel side.
Exhaust lobe 35.45 mm

Billygoat · 07-15-2009, 6:46 PM

Here are some measurements I did on the bike. One lobe is exposed on the flywheel side.
Exhaust lobe 35.45 mm
center 28.20 mm

Intake lobe 36.04

Billygoat · 07-15-2009, 6:47 PM

Sorry about that,
Intake lobe 36.04
center 28.13

Cbrfrenzie · 07-15-2009, 6:57 PM

Ok, from those measurement I get the following:
Intake = 0.3114" lift
Exhaust = 0.2881" lift

Without duration measurements, I would say this is the X2 set, stock lift with increased duration for increased top end power. Do the lobes look physically wider then the stock set of cams?

Billygoat · 07-15-2009, 7:26 PM

Ok, I'm doing the best I can at measuring, so here goes:
I just measured the end lobes like I did on the bike.
Blue set : Intake lobe 36.53 (measured today)
center 36.53
Exhaust lobe 35.55
center 28.35
I need to find a better way of measuring. You use a micrometer eh? My digital caliper and the way I'm measuring is frustrating.

The lobes do look wider on the bike.
I guess with a degree wheel I would be able to tell more. About duration right.

Billygoat · 07-15-2009, 7:27 PM

opps
Intake Lobe:36.53
center 28.20

Billygoat · 07-15-2009, 8:53 PM

Back in 98-99 there was not much info on megacycle cams like the link you shared. When I measure, I'm not sure if it is suppose to be a staight line across the lobe, like from the tip to the back or from the back to the furthest pt on the lobe? Cuz when I measure I can rotate the cam a little and get a larger reading. (cuz it's grind at a diferent angle?)
Goat

Billygoat · 07-15-2009, 10:03 PM

Here we go again: Measured 2 sets of cams one is stock 98 F3 other unknown:
Starting at the chain and measuring away

Stock set;
Intake Lobe 36.25 36.12 36.20 35.91 36.25 36.28 36.24 36.25
center 28.44 28.14 28.15 28.17 28.27 28.11 28.11 28.18

Exhaust lobe 35.23 35.26 35.32 35.34 35.39 35.37 35.25 35.21
center 28.24 28.32 28.20 28.21 28.17 28.36 28.18 28.25

Unknown set:blue
Intake lobe 36.26 36.18 36.24 36.34 36.08 36.12 36.14 36.30
center 28.25 28.10 28.23 28.28 28.18 28.25 28.18 28.15

Exhaust lobe 35.35 35.50 35.38 35.42 35.48 35.25 35.32 35.54
center 28.36 38.35 28.33 28.28 28.35 28.26 28.32 28.42

Cbrfrenzie · 07-16-2009, 10:37 AM

Ok, this is what I've came up with for this last set of measurements for the blue cams:

Unknown set:blue
Intake lobe 36.26 36.18 36.24 36.34 36.08 36.12 36.14 36.30
center 28.25 28.10 28.23 28.28 28.18 28.25 28.18 28.15
Lift(mm) 8.01 8.08 8.01 8.06 7.9 7.87 7.96 8.15
Lift(inches) .3208 .3181 .3208 .3173 .3110 .3098 .3122 .3208

Exhaust lobe 35.35 35.50 35.38 35.42 35.48 35.25 35.32 35.54
center 28.36 28.35 28.33 28.28 28.35 28.26 28.32 28.42
Lift(mm) 6.99 7.15 7.05 7.14 7.13 6.99 7.00 7.12
Lift(inches) .275 .2815 .2775 .2811 .2808 .2752 .2756 .2803

Without a micrometer its really hard to get accurate measurements to the degree in which we are seeking. From these measurements, I conclude that these are the X2 cams, and the set in the bike with the higher lift are the X1 cams. Do you agree?

Billygoat · 07-16-2009, 12:36 PM

I think so. I'm comparing F2 cams to stock F3 cams if that makes any sense. I just hope one set is not a stock set. The number 179x1 number does stick out in my notes when I documented the stuff when I first got it. I've not seen the specs that you shared from megacycle until now. They just didn't have that info 10 years ago (that I could find)
What are your thoughts on valve clearances? They have a tolorance of 13-19 and 19-25. But where is it best? I was told when building my motor to go tight on all tolorances except the crank bearings. So when checking my clearances I'm close to.13 mm and .19mm.

Cbrfrenzie · 07-16-2009, 1:18 PM

Quote:

Originally Posted by Billygoat

I think so. I'm comparing F2 cams to stock F3 cams if that makes any sense. I just hope one set is not a stock set. The number 179x1 number does stick out in my notes when I documented the stuff when I first got it. I've not seen the specs that you shared from megacycle until now. They just didn't have that info 10 years ago (that I could find)
What are your thoughts on valve clearances? They have a tolorance of 13-19 and 19-25. But where is it best? I was told when building my motor to go tight on all tolorances except the crank bearings. So when checking my clearances I'm close to.13 mm and .19mm.

I would set the valve clearances to 0.007" (.19mm) on the Intake side, and 0.010" (.25mm) on the exhaust side. The MegaCycle cams appear to specify slightly more clearance then the factory specs.

Running the crank bearings a bit looser will get you a few extra ponies, however decrease the life of the bearings if it is too loose. I would do factory specs + 5% to 10% on the crank bearings (might want to ask a race bike engine builder on that one). The looser the valve clearances the more valve lift you are compromising out, as it now takes some of the cam travel to contact the bucket.

Without duration specs, the blue dot cams could be either stock, or the X2 cams. If you can compare them with some known stock F2 cams, and if indeed the loves are "wider" then you know its the X2, otherwise if they look identical, they are! Have you tried calling MegaCycle and asking about the color coding?? That might answer everything for us!

Billygoat · 07-16-2009, 1:55 PM

Cool!! Thanks. Looks like I will be taking the cams out of the bike to re shim. Checked them last night, and yeah I really made them tight:

Starting at # 1 cyl.

EXHAUST .203 .203 .203 .19 .203 .19 .203 .203
Intake .14 .152 .152 .152 .152 .127 .13 tight .127 tight

I hear you on losing lift with more clearance. The bike did not run all that hot, (temp. wise) in fact ran cooler than stock on the road when moving. Probably valves were open too long robbing me some power. I never touched the pistons with the valves, although I bet I was close. The head I'm running has been seriously milled. By measuring it to a stock head. I'll try to contact megacycle. The falicon crank is awsome looking so smooth and shiny. Weighing it to stock, 1.1 lbs lighter.

So the verdict on the noise was the tensionor(oil primed) Was thinking the head was milled so much that it caused my cam chain to be more loose then with a stock head. The manual tensioner for your F2 block has an oil hole beside the bolts: My F3 cam tensioner is completly diff, and will not line up at all to the bolt holes. Other posts show lots of people having noise with these oil primed tensioners.
If