[maurice]

2001 vt1100c shadow spirit, 25k miles. researching pro's and cons. Some say too many miles to start synthetic as seals may leak. Honda dealer today said no problem, just make sure it is motorcycle oil, 10w-40. I live in very hot climate, north florida this time of year, 90-95 degrees in the shade. thought heavier would be better like 15 or 20w-50. At 6am this morning it was 81 degrees. any advice from experience i would appreciate!

maurice

[reefkprZ]

before you go, believeing the deal on the "must be motorcycle oil" myth take a look at this

Testing Motorcycle Oil

In my opinion unless your running a racebike with extreme needs there is no need to waste money on insanely expensive oil.

[maurice]

Originally Posted by reefkprZ

before you go, believeing the deal on the "must be motorcycle oil" myth take a look at this

Testing Motorcycle Oil

In my opinion unless your running a racebike with extreme needs there is no need to waste money on insanely expensive oil.

interesting. yeah, from what i have read many honda shadow riders have been using synthetic mobil 1 or shell rottela t oil with no problems, making sure it does not say "energy conserving" on label. thanks

maurice

[reefkprZ]

something I hear a lot when working on older cars is people saying they would like to use synthetic but their car is older and dont want it to start leaking. I have no Idea where this other myth was created. I think it has to do with people believeing that synthetic has supersmall molecules that are opposed to being in engines. the reality is all the molecules are the same size in synthetic where as in petroleum based they are various sizes, some larger some smaller than the molecules found in synthetic. if synthetic is going to leak through seals, then petroleum based oil is DEFINATLY going to leak through them as well.

if anything the advantages provided by synthetic oils should be relativly apparant, they dont break down as fast maintaining viscosity longer, less additaves due to the lack of need for the additave to lower the pour point temp of the oil, with synthetics having a lower pour point it makes them better on cold starts lubricating moving parts quicker. often the lower ash content of synthetics makes for less sludge build up along with the higher flash point of the synthetic generally causing a cleaner more fuel efficient engine in the long run.

IMO its never too late for synthetic.

[maurice]

Originally Posted by reefkprZ

something I hear a lot when working on older cars is people saying they would like to use synthetic but their car is older and dont want it to start leaking. I have no Idea where this other myth was created. I think it has to do with people believeing that synthetic has supersmall molecules that are opposed to being in engines. the reality is all the molecules are the same size in synthetic where as in petroleum based they are various sizes, some larger some smaller than the molecules found in synthetic. if synthetic is going to leak through seals, then petroleum based oil is DEFINATLY going to leak through them as well.

if anything the advantages provided by synthetic oils should be relativly apparant, they dont break down as fast maintaining viscosity longer, less additaves due to the lack of need for the additave to lower the pour point temp of the oil, with synthetics having a lower pour point it makes them better on cold starts lubricating moving parts quicker. often the lower ash content of synthetics makes for less sludge build up along with the higher flash point of the synthetic generally causing a cleaner more fuel efficient engine in the long run.

IMO its never too late for synthetic.

sounds good Reef. Can you respond to the idea that we should not use auto oil in motorcycles? that is anothe point i hear. Oils i mentioned are widely used by cycles.

maurice

[reefkprZ]

if you read the link in my first reponse you'll see thats what that article addresses, after testing a bunch of oils they actually figured out motorcycle oils were underperforming when compared to regular motor oils. the companies when approached about the differences avoided the questions and tried to sidestep the issue point out their sheer stable polymers would out perform, but when faced with actual test results versus a regular motor oil they had no explination why their oils performed worse than regular motor oils even though they cost 3x as much.

the "has to be motorcycle oil" is sheer myth, the fact remains that the governments only allow ceartain amounts of various stabilizers and additives in oils for pollution reasons so the motorcycle oil companies saying they have "more" of ceartain things would probably be closer to 1/1000th of a percent more since by EPA regulations oils can only contain X amount. generally when you read the lable on a motorcycle oil you'll see "with added" such and such, well yeah its an additave so they can say it but it doesnt mean theres more or its actually any better than a cheaper brand. or they'll say more than competing brands, when they are using technical information from a competing brands line from 20 year ago . if its technically true they can say it but it doesnt really mean anything except more money in their pockets.

[reefkprZ]

I forgot to mention something. yes, oils lose viscosity faster in motorcycles than in cars all oils. the most viscosity loss is in the first 800miles of riding

in the test mobil 1 gastrol gtx and gastrol syntec only lost about 14-28% viscosity after 800 miles with mobil 1 being the best of the three, while hondas HP4 (motorcycle oil) lost closer to 31% viscosity and spectro 4 also motorcycle oil) lost 32% viscosity. the test results pretty much debunk the claims.

after the first 800miles viscosity drop was far less signifigant in all oils with mobil 1 still testing out the best.

in short if your using an SG rated motor oil it doesnt matter whether it say for a bike or not, its motor oil and its going to perform pretty much the same. I would stress the importance of sticking with one type of oil. mixing 30w with 40w etc is a bad idea, if your going to change oil brands/weights do a complete drain and refill and change your filter as well. its always best to go with the manufacturers recommendation for oil weights. I would suggest asking your dealer what oil weights they reccomend for the average driving weather in your area.

[maurice]

Thanks Reef. Yeah, i get your point from the article. I have read other articles and there is one saying mobil 1 seemed in some hondas to produce clutch slipping, having a little "moly" in it. (don't remember or care about the full name). Rotella-t seemed high on the plus list so i am thinking of getting it at walmart. manual states 10w-40, and im sure 15w40 would be fine since north fl. it does not get too cold. My bike has little over 24k on it so i was also little concerned with that, as from reading articles some sludge or other undesireable debrit bonds with the seals, and synthetic cleans this up and with it the seal. Don't know if it is true, but my bike is not that old so i should be ok even if it is true.
I assume you use mobil 1? and no problems.

maurice

[reefkprZ]

actually right now I am running citgo superguard synthetic oil, its the cheapest in the local stores and I am doing the "run it, change it" on my bike, its been used and abused so I am running the bike for a short time then changing the oil out to flush as much crap as possible out, in doing so I am using the cheapest oil possible since its only staying in the motor for about 4 hours of run time. When I am done I intend to go with the mobil 1 for longevity.

as for clutch slippage I have no expirience with that so you'll have to take that one from who you heard it from, I cant really say yay or nay to it, and I have no idea how much the molybdenum content has to do with clutch slippage. (dont feel bad about not catching the word molybdenum I only know it because its an essential trace element in marine reef tanks and it took me 10+ years in the hobby before I even knew how to pronounce it)

if indeed the synthetic cleans the seal and causes a leak then you know the seal "was bad anyway" I would rather find it as a minor leak when the seal got cleaned up a little than as a catastrophic failure when the "sludge sheild" gives way on a long cruise. (images of oils spraying, sitting on the side of the highway while your friends try to find an open shop on a sunday holiday cruise)

[maurice]

thank you sir. I guess i will be safe and go with rotella syn. I appreciate your info. good luck with your newest bike to clean up.

maurice

[denzee]

Anybody notice the date on the report? Feb 1994. It is a great read and most of it may still apply but engine oils have gone from "SG" in the report all the way up to the current "SM" API standard. I don't know how any of this would affect the results.

It also makes no mention of wet clutches in the test, that I noticed, just transmissions. I thought that was odd because the clutch is a main topic when talking oils.

[reefkprZ]

I did notice the test was from almost 12 years ago. unfortunatly its hard to find other data thats not provided by the companies themselves. and every company claims to be the best which definatly cant be true. most likley the higher the api rating the better an oil is going to perform (in regards to viscosity retention) in controlled conditions its not possible to accuratly test more than one factor with out potentially skewing the results. if they were doing viscosity retention and clutch usage at the same time one may have skewed the results of the other with too many variables. newer data would be great to find. but I feel the data is relavant to the bikes in question in this particular thread an 84 and an 85. if we were talking a 2008 I would try and get some first hand info from guys that ride em as well as looking harder for newer test results.

the true test is and always will be the riders like you and everyone else out there putting the oil to work in the field.

denzee are there oils you have tried that has produced noticable clutch slippage that you think other riders should avoid? first hand expirience is always a bonus, like I mentioned I havent had that problem so I cant comment on what oils may or may not produce slippage and I have a hard time finding any studies done on the subject.

[denzee]

I have always used semi-synthetic Motul or Repsol and have never had clutch slippage. I have heard problems when switching to full syn but no personal experience.

It's hard getting over that mental thing of not using good expensive motorcycle oil. It's like how your bike runs better after an oil change and a good wash.

[reefkprZ]

I did find a guy running a ducati that had a lot to say on motorcycle oils and clutch slippage on another forum, heres what he had to say abou8t mobile on.

apparantly I cant link it up


I'll quote him instead
begin quote
1. Use a synthetic oil. The viscosity of synthetic-based oils generally drops more slowly than that of petroleum-based oils in the same application. There is no evidence that motorcycle-specific synthetics out-perform their automotive counterparts in viscosity retention when used in a motorcycle.

(theres a lot more here but I removed it to coserve space)

"The bottom line here is, to get the best protection, you need to change any oil frequently. Changing your oil serves to remove abrasive dust ingested from the air, from (wet) clutch wear and harmful combustion by-products from the engine that accelerate wear. Studies have shown that most motor oils loose 30% of their viscosity in the first 1,500 miles.

So for the best motorcycle engine protection, dry clutch or wet clutch, I recommend (and use) the less expensive 15W-50 weight (remember ONLY 15W-50) automobile-specific Mobil 1 and change it every 1,500 to 2,000 miles."
end quote

[sheepofblue]

I run synthetic in my '84 Honda Ascot all the time. The original owner was my cousin and he didn't use synthetic and let the bike set for about 6 years before I got it. The only leak is a slight leak on the case on the bottom of the engine that has been there for as long as I have had the bike.

In my CBR1000RR and RC51 I always run Motul 300V and have had zero issues.

Personally I would ONLY use bike oil. True you MIGHT get by on something lesser but what does an engine cost? I believe in keeping coolant and oil at a premium in all of my vehicles and have had outstanding durability on my engines

[maurice]

Originally Posted by sheepofblue

I run synthetic in my '84 Honda Ascot all the time. The original owner was my cousin and he didn't use synthetic and let the bike set for about 6 years before I got it. The only leak is a slight leak on the case on the bottom of the engine that has been there for as long as I have had the bike.

In my CBR1000RR and RC51 I always run Motul 300V and have had zero issues.

Personally I would ONLY use bike oil. True you MIGHT get by on something lesser but what does an engine cost? I believe in keeping coolant and oil at a premium in all of my vehicles and have had outstanding durability on my engines

sheepofblue, i have done alot of research on the pros and cons of using deisel or truck synthetic oil on the honda, and it is an overwhelming yea for the oil. the choice is not ruined motor or motorcycle oil. I understand the desire to protect and care for the bike, believe me. i love my bike, but reason has got to come into the picture. But that's cool for all who want to just use motor c oil.

maurice

[maurice]

just a paste from wikipedia for those interested..

Motorcycle usage
Though marketed as an engine oil for diesel trucks, Rotella oil has found popularity with motorcyclists as well. The properties of heavy duty engine oils tend to map to the same requirements of motorcycle oils, particularly those whose engine and transmission share the same oil. (This is called a "shared sump" design, which is unlike automobiles which maintain separate oil reservoirs - one for the engine and one for the transmission). The chemical additives found in heavy duty engine oils work well with motorcycles. In addition, the lack of "friction modifiers" in truck oils such as Rotella means they do not interfere with proper wet clutch operations.
Motorcycle specific oils tend to cost between $8 and $10 per quart. Shell Rotella T 15W-40 costs about $19 per gallon (or about $4.75/quart). The price economy of Shell Rotella T allows a motorcycle owner to change oil more frequently, thus matching the "extended change interval" value of motorcycle specific synthetics.

they just got the weight wrong on the synthetic rotella, it is 5w-40.

maurice

writing this since i changed out oil to rotella-caused a tapping noise in my bike. read other posts on another forum and lower number on weight seems to be the culprit, as rotella synthetic only came in 5w-40. Now i have to dump the oil and get a higher lower number, probably go with mobil 1 synthetic, i think it is 15w50. Man i wish i had read that post sooner! Bike sure does run smooth though, revs quieter. Don't want premature wear from constant tapping so will change.

maurice

[mikestp]

The debate over synthetic/mineral is mainly to do with the higher breakdown temperature synthetic oil has over mineral oil.

Air cooled bikes run hot. The "gap" between running normally and over heating is less than in most water cooled engines. Our air-cooled engines will benefit greatly from synthetic oils.

Most of the hype about different brands of synthetic oils is simply "snake oil" claims. The cheapest synthetic oil is far far superior to the best mineral oil. No contest.

I always change to synthetic oils after 15-20 hours of run in time from new. By that time all metal to metal wearing surfaces (rings, cylinder, camshaft to cam followers etc have taken a seat (worn in) and will no longer need the "wear" allowed with mineral oil.

I have rebuild a few thousands of engines of all types in my life, and most of the myths spoken of here are simply myths. Or old wives tales....

Frankly... unless you are running a newly rebuilt engine, there really is very little time to "wear-in" a new factory built modern engine. All engines built today on the factory assembly lines are spun up enough to "bed in", while still on the assembly line...

The amount of "wear-in" is a measure of resistance at a preset RPM, usually driven by an electric motor. As a new engines runs it becomes less "sticky" and more easier to turn with the same application of rpm / torque, usually measured in amps drain on the electric motor used to spin the new engines on the assembly line.

When I worked at the factory, we noticed a 3 phase motor would draw less energy after a few mins of running. I can say that the majority of wear-in/break-in happens in those 5-8 mins of spinning than does the next 10 hours.

All modern motors are spun up enough to make any break in time a matter of hours, or a couple of hundred miles (300 klicks)

Modern engines are built with far superior machining tolerances and much better alloys (some cylinders today are aluminium with embedded silicates) with things like cryogenic treatment of rings cylinders etc. I would not hesitate to change out the oil in your new bike to synthetic as soon as your first oil change is recommended.

Personally I look for "sale" prices on case lots of synthetic oils....

Mike
mikestp@yahoo.com

[maurice]

after puting in rotella synthetic 5w-40 immediately i notice the tapping noise, like a woodpecker when idleing. So i ran it about 4 hrs and decided this is not good. dumped it for mobil 1 15w-50 syntheci and woodpecker stopped. better weight for me. just thought i's pass it on.

maurice

[mikestp]

Woo Hoo!!! Canadian Tire has a sale on Mobile 1 oil 4.4 liters for 33 Canadian dollars (thats about 29 USD today) 5-30.

[DrRuckus07]

I would recommend just sticking with good old Honda GN4 10W-40. It’s fairly cheap and works great in Hondas. From Experience, the only thing I notice from synthetics is a little quieter engine. Seems like the clutch is smoother, and there are less internal rattles and vibrations too.

But seriously on the oil... you’re not going to find very many bikes with engine damage from oil not holding up. Just Engine damage from oil not being changed regularly. Rest is all preference and how much extra $$ you have in your wallet

[danawalker2]

I like all of you want the best for the cheepest but also want my bike to last forever. Silly I know but that is human nature. I have been doing a lot of research and have decided to convert my shadow to synthetic.
After looking at multiple test results of the wear factors from all available sources, I am trying Amsoil to see if it lives up to the claims and will be using purolator one filters based on the filter research for micron filtration and filter searface area. This filter info came from an independent source who was a concerned cyclist like us looking for the best products and did filter disection on all available filters out there.
I do think cycle oil's uniqueness is to eliminate (wet clutch) slippage. Other than that factor there is no difference.
My major concern is with the transmition and shifting. On my bike, I noticed that it shifts down harder after it heats up and I have driven a while and clunks loudly going into gear. I just bought my bike with 16,000 miles on it. She is liquid cooled and shaft driven. I am in the proccess right now of changing over and will post if I see any changes or not.
This is a conciderable price difference compared to regular oil so I am in hopes of seeing a big difference.

[timstoys01]

hello, synthetic oil is superior to all other regular oils. by the fact that synthetic oil never turn from a liquid to a solid, carbonize. the carbon build up in the combustion chamber are from the fuels that have so many byproducts from other poluting industries in them for disposal. synthetic reduces friction by at least 25% OR MORE. longer piston and valve guide life. that 25% works into extra horse power and torque, mileage and cooler running engine.KLOTZ invented synthetic oil,manufactured since 1959 and ive sold it since 1969 till now. klotz recommends oil change once a year, depending on the containants from blow by, all engine have blow by.they aint but two grades of anything, the best and all the rest. tim ialso use it in my air compressors for thirty years.