96' 900RR Fuel Injection/turbo build - Honda Motorcycles - FireBlades.org
Honda FireBlade Discussion of the Honda CBR 900RR, Honda CBR 929RR, Honda CBR 954RR, and Honda CBR 1000RR Motorcycles.

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post #1 of 17 Old 02-11-2017, 7:26 PM Thread Starter
 
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96' 900RR Fuel Injection/turbo build

I have been doing alot of research on turbo charging. Recently lost my license but thank god, they opened a 1/4 mile drag strip just out of town and it looks like ill be spending the weekends there blowing off steam for the next 5 years. I have a 1996 CBR900RR. I also own an 81' KZ1000LTD. The more reading I did, the more i realized that whatever bike I decided to turbo would forever be condemned to the violence of drag racing. I'd like to keep the KZ as a cruiser and have the 900 be my track bike. So heres my dilemma. I want to turbo this bike and do all the building necessary for a strong engine to handle such conditions. At first, i wanted to draw through a Rochester 2bbl carb with T04E turbo blowing into a custom built plenum. Sounds crazy right?

Well then i got to thinking how nice it would be to blow through a fuel injected throttle body. Im sure the fuel tables in the ECM are changeable and it would leave me with more room for tuning. A throttle body setup is easy enough to find. A power commander III could run it all. But then i see that there are alot of other sensors needed for fuel injection too. Could someone give me a list of what sensors are needed for fuel injection on a 900? im looking at a throttle body from a 00' model year right now.

Also, what kind of pistons came stock in a 96' 900rr? I doubt they are forged.. The only aftermarket forged ones i can find are for 12:1 comp. ratios and boring/re-sleeving is required. I see the 929 had a kit available. Will 929 pistons fit a 900 with some machine work to the cylinders? I intend to have the crank welded as well and install a lockup clutch. I see alot of turbo builds on these bikes. With the right internals and tuning, i feel like i could run way over 12psi through this motor and even do meth. injection if detonation becomes an issue.

Thanks guys,
KT

1996 CBR900RR
1981 KZ1000LTD
1977 DT250
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post #2 of 17 Old 02-11-2017, 11:12 PM
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Re: 96' 900RR Fuel Injection/turbo build

KT

So I read that you've done some research on this subject. My knowledge is only that of normally aspirated machinery. But, in case you haven't seen these here they are: (this one on a 93-95 platform)

SR Archive: Team Mr. Honda CBR900RR Turbo - UFO '1996 | Sport Rider

And I found these guys, kits are long gone, but the info sounds cool:

Honda CBR900RR Fireblade Turbo

I know you asked what sensors and things you would need, and I'll assume you would at least need an MAP, IAT, TPS (96-99 have one), a programmable ECU ($$$), Cam position sensor, Crank position sensor, etc.

Now, if you really wanted to experiment and make a Frankenstein of sorts, in 2002 Honda made the CB900F, or 919. It was a 3rd generation 919cc 98-99 DE-TUNED CBR engine that Honda made WITH FUEL INJECTION. I would imagine most of the hard parts would work between the models up to a point. But it is something to consider.

The power commander won't replace the ECU, as far as I know it compliments the ECU. The OEM ECU for a 96-99 RR however will probably be useless here. You would need some aftermarket unit. I have no experience with that, just throwing it out there for thought.

The pistons from a 929 IMO would not work, the valve angle, valve diameter, and skirt length are all too different.

I toyed with the idea of using a full CB900F set up for a track build a few years ago, but bailed on it just knowing the motor was detuned. It would probably work ok, I just never got the ball rolling.

You're probably better off building the KZ, and keeping the 900 as it is, a canyon carver.

With whatever you decide, if you make the 900 a turbo, we would love to see the build documented in a thread here.

My 99 900RR Track Build Link:Track Build 900RRX

My Red Rocker 93 Build Link: Café 900RRP
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post #3 of 17 Old 02-12-2017, 6:32 AM
 
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Re: 96' 900RR Fuel Injection/turbo build

We have lot of turboed 900RR:s here. My friend actually has a SC-33 fighter with a turbo but the motor he has is from SC-28. Some of the builds here are with tb:s and aftermarket ecus but it would be a lot easier if you will just use the carbs. You can use thicker gaskets to get the comp. down and i remember reading that first thing that will let go on the 900rr are the rods.. But the rods should be still good for over 200hp.
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post #4 of 17 Old 02-12-2017, 8:10 AM
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Re: 96' 900RR Fuel Injection/turbo build

A rule of thumb for any turbo build is to start from the furthest point from the crank and start building. If you are going to splurge money into forged parts- start with pistons, then rods, and lastly the crank if you still have money.

Switching to FI will require a new ecu and all the sensors that run it, but the ECU will have to be from a FI'd bike too. That means you have to figure out how to get all the sensors to work right, where to put them, etc. etc.... plus wiring a different ECU in properly. None of it is impossible by any means, but it is not easy.

Ian is, of course, correct that the power commander only varies the stock fueling as a "piggy-back" system rather than a stand-alone fuel controller. It takes the ecu signal to the injector and modifies it for more or less fuel.

I'm also with Dr. Doohan here that the KZ would be the way to go for a drag bike... but if you are going to turbo the Blade you are better off with TB's as mika pointed out =)

Doubt that is too much help- but hopefully at least one bit of information there was worth something to you

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"But risks must be taken, because the greatest risk in life is to risk nothing. Only the person who risks is truly free."
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post #5 of 17 Old 02-13-2017, 10:49 AM Thread Starter
 
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Re: 96' 900RR Fuel Injection/turbo build

Any info was and is greatly appreciated From what i understand, ill be sticking with a carburetor. I understand fuel injection to a point (mostly the 80's GM Rochester TBI) I think ill stick with the 2bbl rochester carb draw through idea. I gotta keep my KZ stock. I know the Honda surpasses it in almost every way but in my opinion, nothing beats that old school muscle car on 2 wheels vibe i get from it. I've had the KZ since i was 16. Im 21 now but that bike never got old lol. The CBR ill be working with is in great shape. Engine makes kind of a tick under acceleration. I hear the same noise in all the videos i look up about them. Is that piston slap? The bike runs excellent as it sits. I assume the gearbox will stand up to some abuse depending on my launching without being back cut. I might just leave the top end alone and slowly work my way up until something bad happens. At which point ill do the more expensive stuff (welded crank, forged pistons, ported head). Ill gladly document the build on here. It might be a bit until i get started but ill use this thread when the time comes (next month or so most likely). Ill be using a K03 turbo off of a VW and a custom built plenum box made out of 1/16" steel plate. Ill use the stock exhaust, cut just after the collector to feed the turbo.

1996 CBR900RR
1981 KZ1000LTD
1977 DT250
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Re: 96' 900RR Fuel Injection/turbo build

i saw some people mentioning pressurizing the carb bowls under boost. Is this simply running tubes from the plenum to the float bowls on the carbs? So as boost increases, the pressure in the bowl increases and it shoots more gas up through the main jet? This would allow me to blow through the stock carbs.

1996 CBR900RR
1981 KZ1000LTD
1977 DT250
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post #7 of 17 Old 02-13-2017, 1:01 PM
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Re: 96' 900RR Fuel Injection/turbo build

Quote:
Originally Posted by KITTENTOOTH View Post
i saw some people mentioning pressurizing the carb bowls under boost. Is this simply running tubes from the plenum to the float bowls on the carbs? So as boost increases, the pressure in the bowl increases and it shoots more gas up through the main jet? This would allow me to blow through the stock carbs.
I know when Honda went with Ram Air on the 600F3 they created a low speed secondary ram air system who's goal was to maintain atmospheric pressure in bowls. It was a very confusing myriad of plumbing and a solenoid.

I found a pic of it, much better explained lol

So for you to increase the pressure in the bowls I think might be a hinderance in a turbo set up, but I'm just basing that on the fact that Honda wanted to "maintain" atmospheric pressure in the bowls, rather than pressurize, or increase pressure in them.


My 99 900RR Track Build Link:Track Build 900RRX

My Red Rocker 93 Build Link: Café 900RRP
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post #8 of 17 Old 02-13-2017, 3:09 PM Thread Starter
 
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Re: 96' 900RR Fuel Injection/turbo build

Ahh okay. I wasn't sure, i thought it kinda made sense but i wonder also if the needles would get forced shut in the carbs with 10psi of boost behind them lol. I found a source for pistons.. they are custom made so its pricey but it might be the only way to get forged pistons for this thing AND they said they can have them cut for a lower compression ratio. Thicker head gaskets can bring it down even more if need be. Also going to contact Carrillo for some forged rods. When i split the cases ill have the crank welded and the gearbox back cut. Put it all back together with a lockup clutch and a mildly ported head. Maybe get ahold of Web Cams and have them grind me a couple of single pattern shafts with 113 degree LSA. I just hope this whole deal doesn't fall on its face with the Rochester 2bbl draw through idea. That carb is a dinosaur I just figure it would supply more than enough fuel and flow plenty of air for this little 4 banger.

1996 CBR900RR
1981 KZ1000LTD
1977 DT250
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Re: 96' 900RR Fuel Injection/turbo build

With a built motor, its 20 pounds of boost a crazy thing to shoot for?

1996 CBR900RR
1981 KZ1000LTD
1977 DT250
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Re: 96' 900RR Fuel Injection/turbo build

I can ask what people normally here uses as components when they built them. We really do have many of them here with turbo and some with milder boost levels are actually very streetable. What are the hp figures you are trying to get?
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post #11 of 17 Old 02-13-2017, 6:25 PM Thread Starter
 
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Re: 96' 900RR Fuel Injection/turbo build

Im not really sure honestly.. at 20psi I would assume i'd be at or over 250 hp. Id make more if its possible. This would be a strip bike only, though i could crank the boost down and street ride it as well. Im going to get ahold of Orient Express tomorrow and get an estimate on forged pistons and Carrillo rods. Going to get estimate on welding a crank too. Lockup clutches aren't very expensive. I'll be using a knockoff turbo and components as well. Ill have over a grand into the top end alone before machine work is even done Ill add an extra bung in the plenum for methanol injection next to the one for my boost gauge and maybe tap into it if detonation becomes an issue. Ill start small, like 6psi and then work my way up to 20. I have a dyno available to me here in town so tuning should be easy. Does anyone have stock cam specs for this bike? I found duration and lift but no spec for LSA.

1996 CBR900RR
1981 KZ1000LTD
1977 DT250
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post #12 of 17 Old 02-13-2017, 8:18 PM
 
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Re: 96' 900RR Fuel Injection/turbo build

I can get you readings what they have here dynoed from them with different boosts but it allso depends on lot what size turbo you will have. Larger turbo flows more air with same boost compared to smaller one. The timing figures are at the manual. Insert them to a cam timing calculator and you will get the lobe separation angle. I don't remember the cam specs of the older 900RR. I wouldn't worry much about the crank. I would stick to stock crank and cams and use stock timing. I would think that your money is better invested in getting good rods, pistons, ARP studs and the lock-up. And good turbo manifold and plenum.... I would aim for 9.0:1 Comp. ratio with the pistons... 20 psi wont necessarily get you 250hp. A K2 GSX-R here is making 270 rwhp with 25 psi and GSX-R motor has lot more power in stock form...
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post #13 of 17 Old 02-14-2017, 11:26 AM Thread Starter
 
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Re: 96' 900RR Fuel Injection/turbo build

I was going to make my own plenum out of 2.5" exhaust pipe capped on either end with 4 runners out of it on one side that go into the intake boots and a 2.5" inlet on the other side in the middle for the boost in. I was going to use the stock exhaust to feed the turbo. just run a pipe from the stock collector.

1996 CBR900RR
1981 KZ1000LTD
1977 DT250
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Re: 96' 900RR Fuel Injection/turbo build

HI i was wondering if you have thought about supercharging instead of the turbo route .. some ideas Rotrex A/S
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