How bad did I just sh*t the bed? - Honda Motorcycles - FireBlades.org
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post #1 of 50 Old 02-20-2017, 12:01 PM Thread Starter
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How bad did I just sh*t the bed?

Okay, so I went in to do valve clearances and I am pretty sure I just screwed the pooch =( Not a terrible or un-doable ordeal (I hope) but an inconvenience at minimum.

Long story short: Pulled the top chain guide too early, rotated the engine, pretty sure the exhaust cam jumped time =( Went for a second measure of everything (clearances) just to make certain everything was correct before pulling the cams and putting in new shims... so I know all those measurements are likely also no good now too (the second round).

Current status: Fuct. As I was rotating the engine to the next stop it refused to rotate- I did not try to force it but instead backed it up and extra gently rotated it back clockwise only to encounter the same thing (plugs are out, no reason for resistance).

SOOOOOOOOO

I will be going through the manual (of course), but I need to know exactly how to set the cam timing back in-line with the crank (I assume static timing in-line with knotch and intake/exhaust marks either inside or outside) Does it matter which here? The piston has to hit TDC twice per full engine cycle anyway...


Thoughts Doohan?!?!?!?! Am I screwed here? I know I now have to get it all back in-time and remeasure (fine with that) just want to make sure I get it properly back in-time.

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post #2 of 50 Old 02-20-2017, 1:23 PM Thread Starter
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Oh, and yes I realize that was a stupid thing to do. Pulled it after the first round of checks then decided measure twice shim once sounded fitting....
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post #3 of 50 Old 02-20-2017, 3:45 PM
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Re: How bad did I just sh*t the bed?

How much do you think the cams are out? Both cams? One cam? I've heard it's a bitch to see the cam timing marks on the 954's.

Get the timing back in line, and the top guide back on. Do a rotation and see how it goes. The cams are under a lot of valve spring pressure, so it's possible to have one or both go more than a few teeth out.

I think you'll be ok, rotating by hand without forcing it was a great idea. It's possible there became some interference, but I don't think there's any damage done.

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post #4 of 50 Old 02-20-2017, 3:57 PM Thread Starter
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From what I can tell I think the it is just exhaust cam that the chain slid over, maybe one or two teeth? It does not look like it could go over the intake sprocket... I'm hoping too be able to just lift the exhaust cam and reset the position- but - the book says to remove intake first lol.

Might be safer to just pull them both and make sure they are timed up right? I do not "mind" the extra work- it is worth it for peace of mind.

One major question though that I think I know the answer to:
Does the crank position matter after the static mark is set properly? Pretty sure it just lines #1 TDC, couldn't see it affecting anything else as long as the cams are in the right position.....am I thinking correctly there?
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post #5 of 50 Old 02-20-2017, 4:03 PM Thread Starter
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Also pretty sure that the resistance would be a mis-timed exhaust valve. Immediately dawned on me when I hit the resistance. After backing up and gently forward again I looked up at the cam sprockets and noticed the chain floating precariously high on the exhaust side...

From that point I went in and started taking out cam holder bolts =[ I knew what had happened

Stupid rookie mistake to boot =[
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post #6 of 50 Old 02-20-2017, 4:51 PM
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Re: How bad did I just sh*t the bed?

Yes, the timing mark on the ignition rotor is used to set #1 at TDC for the adjustment. The cams are then in "time" with the crank as their marks should be lined up across the side of the top of the head, with #4 's lobes pointing "out". That's where everything starts.
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post #7 of 50 Old 02-21-2017, 7:51 AM Thread Starter
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Re: How bad did I just sh*t the bed?

Good! Thanks for the clarification there. That is what I thought it had to be, but I just wanted to be 100% sure =)

Have a Dr.'s appointment in a bit, but as long as it does not pour today (supposed to rain) I will be out there pulling the cams and lining everything back up. You heard correctly that the timing marks (both timing cover and cam sprocket) area bit sketchy. I can see the exhaust side cam for the most part but the intake side is completely behind the frame =( The timing marks for the crank are easy enough to see, but you really only get a point of reference for static timing... but you can use the cam markings to make sure you are lined up. We'll see how this goes (hopefully).
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post #8 of 50 Old 02-21-2017, 5:50 PM Thread Starter
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Re: How bad did I just sh*t the bed?

Okay, raining on and off but still managing to make a bit of progress finally =)

Got the cams completely out, managed to get the crank turned to #1 TDC, fought with the cams for a bit (exhaust went in easy...intake.. well there's a learning curve), now slowly turning in all the bolts for the holders. This would be much easier with the engine out =(

Plugs look like ass too. So new plugs will be getting picked up. In the meantime, going to get the cams bolted back down (just seating everything not to full-torque specs) and going to recheck all the clearances before pulling it all back apart again to re-shim anything that is off... a lot of work for one stupid rookie mistake of pulling the top chain guide and then turning the engine.. Live and learn though right>?

Anyway- I guess I can "bust out" the camera and get some pictures as I go.
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post #9 of 50 Old 02-21-2017, 6:50 PM Thread Starter
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Re: How bad did I just sh*t the bed?

Okay- PROGRESS!!! at least in the idea that going back two-steps in order to go back forward again can be progress... right?


Got the 20,000 cam-holder bolts back down in only about 6 rounds of tightening =) I was not 100% sure the cams were timed properly (could barely tell if the intake cam was right...exhaust I knew was good) but I tightened everything up. I started to turn the motor over (by hand mind you) and as soon as I got 1/16th of a turn realized I STILL DIDN'T PUT THE DAMN TOP GUIDE ON!!! DUMB-ASS....

So I stuck that back where it goes before proceeding being a flippin' retard and proceeded to turn the motor..... good to go =) She spins freely all the way around. Did four 360 rotations to (two four-stroke cycles that is) to make sure all went well repeatedly.

Had to make my own blend of assembly lube... smooth as butter =)

Now the fun part... I get to torque everything down to 12nm and measure the clearances =( So, two steps backward to get back to where I started before I had to go two-steps forward in order to undo my screw up lol.... figures. But- at least I can proceed with peace of mind knowing she is right again =)
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post #10 of 50 Old 02-21-2017, 8:51 PM
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Re: How bad did I just sh*t the bed?

fingers crossed for ya'!! Worst case scenario, Ship it to Connecticut? I heard he does excellent work relatively cheap and on the quick
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post #11 of 50 Old 02-21-2017, 9:01 PM
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Re: How bad did I just sh*t the bed?

Quote:
Originally Posted by jdoni View Post
fingers crossed for ya'!! Worst case scenario, Ship it to Connecticut? I heard he does excellent work relatively cheap and on the quick
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post #12 of 50 Old 02-22-2017, 8:50 AM Thread Starter
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Not so sure about quick....how's that polishing coming on? =]

But, I did know where to turn to verify that the crank wouldn't matter after it was set to TDC on #1! I do not let ANYONE wrench on my bike- I would let Doohan come at it with a spanner; no objections even.
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post #13 of 50 Old 02-22-2017, 11:51 AM Thread Starter
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Okay, so stuck in Mobile and can't do any work =[ found this "gem" at a car park and thought she was in good nick diving by....poor girl needs to come home with me. At a minimum there are some good spare parts on her lol. Hoping to get Serenity back up and running today for an evening ride, but the Mrs. is at her deposition....being deposed I figure. They will not let me in so.....I am just bored to tears
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post #14 of 50 Old 02-22-2017, 8:24 PM Thread Starter
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Re: How bad did I just sh*t the bed?

Alright.... Doohan come pick it up... I seriously give up/quit/at the end of my patience level.

First- my fault on the guide... sh*t happens

Then- shim drops out of the follower/bucket and down into the engine disappearing down a little passage. I stared befuddled as I used a magnet to pull the damned thing out, After a bit of contemplation I realize that is an oil return passage; one-way trip down to the sump.... pull the exhaust off, pull off the sump, retrieve the shim (had to anyway... needed to know what f*cking value was stamped on it to shim the damned valve....)

Sump back up and torqued down (after stripping the drain bolt because I'm a putz that grabbed a 13mm socket instead of 12 and rounded it off whilst removing it). Shims all in-place, followers all back in their respective location, cam brackets/hold-downs in place (after realizing there appears to be no cam bearings required... after 20 minutes of searching the book there is not...) Stick all the bolts back in their respective holes for the cam brackets (cam timing set obviously), start evenly and slowly snugging the holders down in proper order, get to round 20,000 and all the bolts are just seated. get the torque wrench out and start torqueing bolts down... SNAP... WTF?!?!?! Look at the torque wrench... set to 8.5 ftlbs (12nm roughly).... no clue why it snapped... so now I am going to order a whole new set of bolts and replace every one of them =(

But- why would the bolt just snap?!?!?!?! It does look like the head/valves have been worked on at some point at there are markings on the head (unless this is from the factory?)

No cam bearings?!?!?

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Sump down enough to retrieve my shim...
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Block markings...are these factory?!?!

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Had everything properly sorted to go back in its original position... still not sure why the damned bolt would snap =(

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post #15 of 50 Old 02-22-2017, 9:23 PM
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Re: How bad did I just sh*t the bed?

Now now Demon, let's grab a beer, hit the comfy chair and watch some tube. Come back to it tomorrow.

No bearings on the cams, roller or otherwise. The journals all have oil feeds and I assume because the cams don't have the load/force like a crank does they don't need them. Just a guess though.
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