Okay, so I went in to do valve clearances and I am pretty sure I just screwed the pooch =( Not a terrible or un-doable ordeal (I hope) but an inconvenience at minimum.
Long story short: Pulled the top chain guide too early, rotated the engine, pretty sure the exhaust cam jumped time =( Went for a second measure of everything (clearances) just to make certain everything was correct before pulling the cams and putting in new shims... so I know all those measurements are likely also no good now too (the second round).
Current status: Fuct. As I was rotating the engine to the next stop it refused to rotate- I did not try to force it but instead backed it up and extra gently rotated it back clockwise only to encounter the same thing (plugs are out, no reason for resistance).
SOOOOOOOOO
I will be going through the manual (of course), but I need to know exactly how to set the cam timing back in-line with the crank (I assume static timing in-line with knotch and intake/exhaust marks either inside or outside) Does it matter which here? The piston has to hit TDC twice per full engine cycle anyway...
Thoughts Doohan?!?!?!?! Am I screwed here? I know I now have to get it all back in-time and remeasure (fine with that) just want to make sure I get it properly back in-time.
Oh, and yes I realize that was a stupid thing to do. Pulled it after the first round of checks then decided measure twice shim once sounded fitting....
How much do you think the cams are out? Both cams? One cam? I've heard it's a bitch to see the cam timing marks on the 954's.
Get the timing back in line, and the top guide back on. Do a rotation and see how it goes. The cams are under a lot of valve spring pressure, so it's possible to have one or both go more than a few teeth out.
I think you'll be ok, rotating by hand without forcing it was a great idea. It's possible there became some interference, but I don't think there's any damage done.
From what I can tell I think the it is just exhaust cam that the chain slid over, maybe one or two teeth? It does not look like it could go over the intake sprocket... I'm hoping too be able to just lift the exhaust cam and reset the position- but - the book says to remove intake first lol.
Might be safer to just pull them both and make sure they are timed up right? I do not "mind" the extra work- it is worth it for peace of mind.
One major question though that I think I know the answer to:
Does the crank position matter after the static mark is set properly? Pretty sure it just lines #1 TDC, couldn't see it affecting anything else as long as the cams are in the right position.....am I thinking correctly there?
Also pretty sure that the resistance would be a mis-timed exhaust valve. Immediately dawned on me when I hit the resistance. After backing up and gently forward again I looked up at the cam sprockets and noticed the chain floating precariously high on the exhaust side...
From that point I went in and started taking out cam holder bolts =[ I knew what had happened
Yes, the timing mark on the ignition rotor is used to set #1 at TDC for the adjustment. The cams are then in "time" with the crank as their marks should be lined up across the side of the top of the head, with #4 's lobes pointing "out". That's where everything starts.
Good! Thanks for the clarification there. That is what I thought it had to be, but I just wanted to be 100% sure =)
Have a Dr.'s appointment in a bit, but as long as it does not pour today (supposed to rain) I will be out there pulling the cams and lining everything back up. You heard correctly that the timing marks (both timing cover and cam sprocket) area bit sketchy. I can see the exhaust side cam for the most part but the intake side is completely behind the frame =( The timing marks for the crank are easy enough to see, but you really only get a point of reference for static timing... but you can use the cam markings to make sure you are lined up. We'll see how this goes (hopefully).
Okay, raining on and off but still managing to make a bit of progress finally =)
Got the cams completely out, managed to get the crank turned to #1 TDC, fought with the cams for a bit (exhaust went in easy...intake.. well there's a learning curve), now slowly turning in all the bolts for the holders. This would be much easier with the engine out =(
Plugs look like ass too. So new plugs will be getting picked up. In the meantime, going to get the cams bolted back down (just seating everything not to full-torque specs) and going to recheck all the clearances before pulling it all back apart again to re-shim anything that is off... a lot of work for one stupid rookie mistake of pulling the top chain guide and then turning the engine.. Live and learn though right>?
Anyway- I guess I can "bust out" the camera and get some pictures as I go.
Okay- PROGRESS!!! at least in the idea that going back two-steps in order to go back forward again can be progress... right?
Got the 20,000 cam-holder bolts back down in only about 6 rounds of tightening =) I was not 100% sure the cams were timed properly (could barely tell if the intake cam was right...exhaust I knew was good) but I tightened everything up. I started to turn the motor over (by hand mind you) and as soon as I got 1/16th of a turn realized I STILL DIDN'T PUT THE DAMN TOP GUIDE ON!!! DUMB-ASS....
So I stuck that back where it goes before proceeding being a flippin' retard and proceeded to turn the motor..... good to go =) She spins freely all the way around. Did four 360 rotations to (two four-stroke cycles that is) to make sure all went well repeatedly.
Had to make my own blend of assembly lube... smooth as butter =)
Now the fun part... I get to torque everything down to 12nm and measure the clearances =( So, two steps backward to get back to where I started before I had to go two-steps forward in order to undo my screw up lol.... figures. But- at least I can proceed with peace of mind knowing she is right again =)
Not so sure about quick....how's that polishing coming on? =]
But, I did know where to turn to verify that the crank wouldn't matter after it was set to TDC on #1! I do not let ANYONE wrench on my bike- I would let Doohan come at it with a spanner; no objections even.
Okay, so stuck in Mobile and can't do any work =[ found this "gem" at a car park and thought she was in good nick diving by....poor girl needs to come home with me. At a minimum there are some good spare parts on her lol. Hoping to get Serenity back up and running today for an evening ride, but the Mrs. is at her deposition....being deposed I figure. They will not let me in so.....I am just bored to tears
Alright.... Doohan come pick it up... I seriously give up/quit/at the end of my patience level.
First- my fault on the guide... sh*t happens
Then- shim drops out of the follower/bucket and down into the engine disappearing down a little passage. I stared befuddled as I used a magnet to pull the damned thing out, After a bit of contemplation I realize that is an oil return passage; one-way trip down to the sump.... pull the exhaust off, pull off the sump, retrieve the shim (had to anyway... needed to know what f*cking value was stamped on it to shim the damned valve....)
Sump back up and torqued down (after stripping the drain bolt because I'm a putz that grabbed a 13mm socket instead of 12 and rounded it off whilst removing it). Shims all in-place, followers all back in their respective location, cam brackets/hold-downs in place (after realizing there appears to be no cam bearings required... after 20 minutes of searching the book there is not...) Stick all the bolts back in their respective holes for the cam brackets (cam timing set obviously), start evenly and slowly snugging the holders down in proper order, get to round 20,000 and all the bolts are just seated. get the torque wrench out and start torqueing bolts down... SNAP... WTF?!?!?! Look at the torque wrench... set to 8.5 ftlbs (12nm roughly).... no clue why it snapped... so now I am going to order a whole new set of bolts and replace every one of them =(
But- why would the bolt just snap?!?!?!?! It does look like the head/valves have been worked on at some point at there are markings on the head (unless this is from the factory?)
No cam bearings?!?!?
Sump down enough to retrieve my shim...
Block markings...are these factory?!?!
Had everything properly sorted to go back in its original position... still not sure why the damned bolt would snap =(
Now now Demon, let's grab a beer, hit the comfy chair and watch some tube. Come back to it tomorrow. :thumb:
No bearings on the cams, roller or otherwise. The journals all have oil feeds and I assume because the cams don't have the load/force like a crank does they don't need them. Just a guess though.
The book says if you get too-much play the head can be milled to fit bearing inserts, but even at 41,000+ miles the cams fit snug as a bug. I could not get the cams to wiggle at all =)
Could be an issue..... I think it's a 3/8" drive.... BUT, 8.5 ftlbs is 8.5ftlbs no? Might need to go pick up a new (smaller) torque wrench tomorrow =) More tools... hard to complain about that!
Edit: went back and checked the torque wrench... set right at 12nm/9ft.lbs. so at least I know that was not the cause...
I think the range is 5-80 ftlbs on this one.. but it is, like your Ian, about 15" long. I looked at the 1/4" drive but I think it started out at 10 ftlbs..... Guess I'll look for a smaller one with a low-range and get that on order.
Okay- so I've ordered all of the cam-holder bolts new (OEM), 8 new sealing washers for the center 8 bolts, new cam-pulse generator o-ring, new oil drain bolt, and a few new sealing washers for that as well (since I was ordering parts). Not sure exactly when I will get the parts in the post as they are expected to ship within 3-6 days of order. I guess that will give me time to figure out how I am going to get the bolt out of the head (broke pretty much flush) They easily turn by hand without anything holding them back.. so I am hoping this will not be overly-difficult =( But- everything else on this job has fought me tooth and nail.....
Looks like the ultimate torque wrench for the *******....
The troublesome bolt...or what is left of it at least
Went in with an old method that has worked many times for me- a small dab of JB Weld right in the center, set it, let it cure, and (hopefully) simply unscrew it =) We'll see...
20-200 inlbs torque wrench on its way =) Any excuse for a new tool I suppose! It should still easily beat the bolts here as I probably have 1-3 more days before they will even ship out (not counting the weekend I am sure). I guess now I just sit and wait for stuff to come in. I am also stuck waiting for the stupid JB Weld to cure before I can cross my fingers, say a prayer, and try to extract the broken bolt. Going to have to buy a set of metric taps too whilst I am at it so I can go chase all the threads.... might not be necessary... but at least then I have a nice set of taps to boot =)
Okay, did not have much time before I have/had to get ready for work (actually doing that now lol) BUT- I decided I wanted a go at the bolt this morning before I left- came right out with just my fingers turning =)
I was in the process of bringing it inside to get a picture of it (did not have it so flush so it had a curve) when the dog bounced off my berries which prompted me to immediately let go of the bolt (aka drop it). As soon as it hit the floor it split back apart... so the "repair" was definitely fragile! But, IT IS OUT! Now to sit around waiting for parts and a new torque wrench to come in so I may proceed with not messing anything else up during re-assembly...
FINALLY!!!! The parts were waiting on the stoop when I got back from the dog park last night =) Lexi had a blast getting her arse kicked (she is definitely sore by the way she is walking this morning).
By the time I got everything in and took inventory the temps had dropped and the sun ran off so not much progress last night. I did pull the cam holders into the house and gave them a gentle cleaning along with new plug-hole seals. I was debating on if I was going to switch them out (no rips, still springy) but after comparing them you notice how the new ones sit "up" just a touch over flush. I guess after 15 years of being sandwiched between two hard objects I would lose some spring too =)
All I got done last night... just waiting on the wife to wake up and baby-sit the dog so I can go get some work done!
Still "to-do"
Get all the new bits in the holders and torque them back down
Check the new clearances to make sure they are all correct
Reassemble everything =) (including the exhaust I had to pull off to get the shim out of the oil pan)
Still need to get new plugs though as the others (pics coming) are not fit to go back in.
and I'm an idiot. Long story short- I incorrectly assumed you HAD to be going with a larger shim (more clearance between lobe and follower) but for some reason all my measured clearances were tighter than they should be. I reversed the calculations based on this faulty assumption and REMOVED MORE clearance..... so now I just pull it all back apart (down to about 15 mins for holders and cams now though) and put in the CORRECT SMALLER shims, reassemble, and check the clearances. I had her all back together and torqued too.... started measuring clearances again (verifying work) and realized they all shrunk... unpossible... but yeah.. very possible if you screw up =( Again =(
I do not have enough time today before work so it'll either be after work tonight or after work tomorrow. Most likely tomorrow though I may pull the cams tonight to be ready to just re-shim and reassemble tomorrow night.
I do a lot of my own maintenance but when it comes to the valves, I just pay a local independent shop to do it. They have everything that they need to do it. He doesn't mind if I hang around the shop either, but not for valves as I don't want to be there for that long. It is not overly complicated, but experience speeds the process up and they get it right the first time.
The same holds true for tires, I could do it, but I can just stop by and then go grab lunch and it is done by the time I get back. In the past I would just have the tires mounted and do the rest myself. By the time I would drop the rims and have the tires replaced and then reinstall everything, I could just have someone else do the entire thing in less time. Plus most of the time, they shop would want you to drop the rims off and comeback in a day or two. The independent shop does an excellent job balancing the tires as well.
You'll eventually get it and future valve adjustments will become easier though.
I have assembled few 954 engines and while you do it you will get the hold of it. Next time will be much easier. When i have to adjust the valves i prefer dropping the engine. On 954 when the engine is on the frame i hate how little it has space to work.. But we have so long winter here that most of the more time consuming maintances can be done off-season.
You would think with everything else they put in these things.... not sure where I picked up the idea they were Ti... but they do have forged aluminum pistons and a forged steel crank =) If I'm not mistaken the cams are forged and tempered steel as well. It seems a little odd that they would scrimp on the valves after everything else.. but Honda does its own thing =)
UPDATES! Cams put back in and torqued down, valve cover in its place (and sealed where required), plugs/coils back in their home, wiring loom reconnected, and the airbox is back on. Of course, the throttle is reconnected as well (thought that would be more of a PITA than it was). Took the slack off the cam chain with the CCT and tightened it down as well.
Fired her up without the airbox first (briefly) and didn't hear and booms, clanks, tinks, or other notable scary noises =) Sounded like a serious air-leak going on.. but I couldn't remember if that was just the air being sucked directly into the TBs and normal without the airbox (only ever started her without airbox and filter one other time). Reassembled the rest and she sounds fine. May have a little more adjusting to do on the cam chain... but I can live with that =) Even rode her around the block a few times to make sure everything seated well and was proper whilst under load.
I guess a little CCT adjustment and put everything back together will follow (bodywork). I have the next two days off to gently...ish... break her back in and make sure she's happy with my work. Even looks to be good weather coming up =)
Spark plugs- they were not as bad as I initially thought. I touched them up a tad with a nylon brush and reinstalled them. I did not want to spend $60 on plugs and then frag the engine the second I started her back up =O So, they will most likely get purchased and installed tomorrow morning since I have to tear back in a little bit to get the CCT adjusted properly (at least the airbox will be off allowing access to the plugs).
Lan- Yeah.. there are some things that are just easier to drop off =) I had never done the clearances before (as you can probably tell), but am not a complete stranger to the internals. Most of what I have done has been on a car (my 1987 Iroc Z when I still had it) during a complete engine overhaul (bore, hone, valve job, new springs/retainers, biggest cams that wouldn't throw the FI off, headers, etc). I dropped the block off to a machine shop where I had most of the work done, but not until I pulled everything including the freeze plugs. I always loved digging in and learning something new. Of course, cars have rockers and valve lash not technically clearances (save the valve to piston clearance). It is always fun to learn something new =)
Mika- indeed! I am now able to get the cams out (with airbox already off) in about 15 minutes and can get the cam holders to come up evenly. The first time one side was still further down than the other (not even by that much) and they did not want to "let go"... I love the feeling of getting in and getting it done (eventually?). Always nice to know IF anything went wrong and what it was. That has to be the one downside to a shop- if they broke something and rigged it back together you would never know =O
So, kind of progress. I realized my mistake and was informed of a good possibility of why they would wear tight that I had not even considered with titanium valves (valve face wear, valve seat wear) thanks to Ian Doohan - "The master of disaster" =) Novice mistake to assume they would wear loose due to bucket/cam lobe wear. I re-did all my calculations and know exactly what shims need to go where... now I just need to dig in and get the cams out (again) and new shims in-place.
PS- I have been avoiding pictures because they are taking forever to upload =) Still have a bunch that I've taken and will at least get the spark plugs uploaded so you guys can see how terrible they are already. I guess switching between 20 different maps has its consequences in plug life =)
Edit- did the plugs about 16k miles ago with a recommended interval of 32k (16k for the 929) but these ones look rough. Nothing burned on per-se (oil, coolant, etc) but you can tell they had been run rich and lean at different times. Pics to come soon.
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