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Honda FireBlade Discussion of the Honda CBR 900RR, Honda CBR 929RR, Honda CBR 954RR, and Honda CBR 1000RR Motorcycles.

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Old 04-15-2004, 3:22 AM   #1
 
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Motorcyclist Liter Bike Shootout--Part I Observations

Just a few Observations about the Motorcyclist Liter Bike Shootout Part I that was released in the issue received today (yes, I know that its results have been discussed before):

1. The Honda 1000rr was a bit under performing compared to the one they had before. HOWEVER, it was only down by 0.06 sec in the 1/4--this is not significant.

Note: I have voted with my $$$ and sold my awesome 954 w/arata to get the 1000rr when I could have purchased the 10zr or the R1 for less).

2. The Honda is a FAT PIG!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!! !!!!!!!!!! The biggest saving grace is that the Honda has a stainless steel exhaust exhaust that looks very heavy. A full Arata should shave at least 10-14lbs off the bike. The R1 is 17 lbs lighter than the 1000rr and comes with a TI exhaust stock). I believe the 10zr has TI plus it uses a traditional exhaust.

3. The entire R1 midrange is MIA--this is the biggest reason I passed on the R1 (I ride at least 80% canyons and street and the rest track).

4. The 10zr appears to be a handful in ways that hamper full use of its power.

5. The R1 has headshake issues.

6. The Honda is still down on power. The only saving grace here may be that the stock Honda exhaust appears to be very restrictive--may be some ponies hiding!

7. What is up with the Honda website video promising, "the best handling and the fastest lap times in its class"? Seems like a tall order right now, although Part II of the test hopefully will cover this.

No flames please--I love my bike, but just wish Honda would have turned up the heat a bit right out of the box.
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Old 04-15-2004, 8:40 PM   #2
 
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Re: Motorcyclist Liter Bike Shootout--Part I Observations

In the opening round at Eastern Creek here in Australia the 1000RR took pole, set a new lap record and won the weekend. Can't be too bad?

New R1 came second.

GSXR1000 third.

New Kwaka 1K 5th
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Old 04-15-2004, 9:01 PM   #3
 
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Re: Motorcyclist Liter Bike Shootout--Part I Observations

Originally Posted by Bennie Da Blade
In the opening round at Eastern Creek here in Australia the 1000RR took pole, set a new lap record and won the weekend. Can't be too bad?

New R1 came second.

GSXR1000 third.

New Kwaka 1K 5th
Great results! But is that Superbike or Superstock? Superbike is nothing like the bike we ride.
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Old 04-15-2004, 9:29 PM   #4
 
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Re: Motorcyclist Liter Bike Shootout--Part I Observations

australia's racing scene doesnt have much of a budget compared to other countries,and cause the teams just received the bikes a few weeks before the meet they pretty much ran braided lines, rear shocks, slicks, rearsets and exhausts. honda said they hadnt even had the heads off their bikes.
btw our series is actually called production superbike and is limited to modifications.
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Old 04-15-2004, 9:47 PM   #5
 
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Re: Motorcyclist Liter Bike Shootout--Part I Observations

sport rider handed it to ZX power. Honda was not up to par.
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Old 04-16-2004, 2:43 AM   #6
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Re: Motorcyclist Liter Bike Shootout--Part I Observations

Was checking out exhuast over at Akrapovic, this is what there numbers were for the 04 bikes, all with full ti evo system
ZX10r, stock rwhp=158 with full ti =165, stock wght=6.2kg, ti wght=4kg
R1, stock rwhp=158, full ti=160, stock wght=8.9kg, ti=6.1kg
GSXR, stock rwhp=151, full ti=158, stock wght=6.45, ti=5.4
CBR100rr, stock rwhp=151, full ti=158, stock wght=10.6kg, ti=4.5kg
not alot in it after fitting exhuast.
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Old 04-16-2004, 3:18 AM   #7
 
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Re: Motorcyclist Liter Bike Shootout--Part I Observations

Originally Posted by Mako
Just a few Observations about the Motorcyclist Liter Bike Shootout Part I that was released in the issue received today (yes, I know that its results have been discussed before):

1. The Honda 1000rr was a bit under performing compared to the one they had before. HOWEVER, it was only down by 0.06 sec in the 1/4--this is not significant.
Absolutely not. Maybe for dragracers or something.

Note: I have voted with my $$$ and sold my awesome 954 w/arata to get the 1000rr when I could have purchased the 10zr or the R1 for less). .
I might have kept the 954rr but I totally understand wanting a new bike.

2. The Honda is a FAT PIG!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!! !!!!!!!!!! The biggest saving grace is that the Honda has a stainless steel exhaust exhaust that looks very heavy. A full Arata should shave at least 10-14lbs off the bike. The R1 is 17 lbs lighter than the 1000rr and comes with a TI exhaust stock). I believe the 10zr has TI plus it uses a traditional exhaust. .
I don't think it's a fat pig, if it was 50 lbs heavier than its' closest competitor I'd give you that. What is it like 17 lbs. heavier than the R1. If I was racing maybe, but Honda has always built the best streetbike.


3. The entire R1 midrange is MIA--this is the biggest reason I passed on the R1 (I ride at least 80% canyons and street and the rest track).
I'm glad I'm not the only one who noticed this. The RR's bottom end looks very good and feels very nice. My RC's power comes on hard at 4500 RPM's, seat o the pants, feels like the CBR starts to really bring it at 5500 RPM's.
Either way, the holes in the R1's powerband are noticeable on the graph.

4. The 10zr appears to be a handful in ways that hamper full use of its power.
This should be a very important detail to people purchasing any of these new bikes. Bwhip posted some of the Performance bike comparo, and from what he posted they really liked the Blade and the '03/'04 GSXR1K. With that light weight and that power, sounds like a very nervous front end (note the wheelbase also) and a very tank slap happy bike.

5. The R1 has headshake issues.
I can confirm that yes it does and the CBR does NOT, finally!
I rode with a guy that wrecked his R1 on the track (was riding his FJR at the time) and while commented on the riding position of the CBR, and the weight, I asked what happen on the track. "The R1s have always had nervous, tank slap front ends, this one does too. I came out of a corner hard on the gas and the front end got light, tankslapped..." etc, etc. No thanks, I'll take the extra weight if it means added stability.

6. The Honda is still down on power. The only saving grace here may be that the stock Honda exhaust appears to be very restrictive--may be some ponies hiding!
I really don't think so. You have to look at all that magazine crap, and this is if you knitpicking #'s. From what I gather from looking at zine comparos from across the pond and here in the states, and exhaust mfr results for their new slipons/full systems, the new Blade is like 150-153RWHP, and in the same comparos I see the Ninja having like 5 more HP. 5HP? With 150RWHP on tap? With this amount of power, it comes down to the package, and how it all works together.


7. What is up with the Honda website video promising, "the best handling and the fastest lap times in its class"? Seems like a tall order right now, although Part II of the test hopefully will cover this.
I'm in agreement with most of what you have said along with this line. But maybe, just maybe, fastest lap times for average riders, IE not fuggin' journalists and racers. What about the rest of us? I don't ride bikes for a zine daily or have the $ or desire to race. Which bike is going to be fastest, or the easiest to go fast on? Which bike is probably going to be the fastest for the average rider out there, and the majority of people buying these things (please excuse the jackass squids here)? Just an opinion, but I'd bet the Honda.


No flames please--I love my bike, but just wish Honda would have turned up the heat a bit right out of the box.
For them, I think they have. They are a very conservative company. Routinely, their compression ratios are lower (at least I think so), and they don't completely string out the compression or capabilities stock. They do this so the bike is more reliable than anything out there. In fact, I think their bikes are the most reliable bikes on the market. When I buy anything, i ask myself, if I get stuck with this, will it last? I can't say that for some of the other mfr's. I can't recall reading someone saying that put X amount of miles on a Ninja or a gixxer, I can say this about Hondas.

It honestly sounds like you are trying to evaluate this to the fullest before you plop down your hard earned currency, very understandable, and aren't trying to start some gay Taz type comparo thread I've only put 400 miles on my new Blade, but I really like it. Think 929/954 with more power, seat o the pants (opinion) more down low (I think Torque at this point, still breaking my engine in so I haven't hammered the throttle from different RPMs, only short bursts, shortshifting at the same time), much more solid front end, much more stable chassis (more confidence for me leaned over), and a better overall package. The bike doesn't feel heavy to me (yes, yes I know I own a RC) and when you get going, the thing flicks fast and stable. And I don't really think it's off or that far off from anything in the class, they are all right there in acceleration, you won't notice the difference on anything but at the track running at 9/10ths or 10/10ths, streetrider forget it, they are all too damn fast. I think as a package, the bike is very fuggin good, and I don't regret my purchase one bit, despite some bs zine articles. And anyway, seems as if the europress begs to differ from what we are reading stateside. I'll know more when I've broken the engine in to my liking and I'm able to flog the thing for a full day (true test). The guy with the R1 admitted that the fairings on the Honda are of much higher quality, I'd agree, but I would say that about the entire bike.
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Old 04-16-2004, 3:41 AM   #8
 
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Re: Motorcyclist Liter Bike Shootout--Part I Observations

Originally Posted by booth23
Absolutely not. Maybe for dragracers or something.



I might have kept the 954rr but I totally understand wanting a new bike.

I sold my 954, but it was a great bike!



I don't think it's a fat pig, if it was 50 lbs heavier than its' closest competitor I'd give you that. What is it like 17 lbs. heavier than the R1. If I was racing maybe, but Honda has always built the best streetbike.

The Honda is 33lbs heavier than the 10r and 17lbs heavier than the R1.



I'm glad I'm not the only one who noticed this. The RR's bottom end looks very good and feels very nice. My RC's power comes on hard at 4500 RPM's, seat o the pants, feels like the CBR starts to really bring it at 5500 RPM's.
Either way, the holes in the R1's powerband are noticeable on the graph.

I flat out do not like the R1--and I have ridden it.

This should be a very important detail to people purchasing any of these new bikes. Bwhip posted some of the Performance bike comparo, and from what he posted they really liked the Blade and the '03/'04 GSXR1K. With that light weight and that power, sounds like a very nervous front end (note the wheelbase also) and a very tank slap happy bike.



I can confirm that yes it does and the CBR does NOT, finally!
I rode with a guy that wrecked his R1 on the track (was riding his FJR at the time) and while commented on the riding position of the CBR, and the weight, I asked what happen on the track. "The R1s have always had nervous, tank slap front ends, this one does too. I came out of a corner hard on the gas and the front end got light, tankslapped..." etc, etc. No thanks, I'll take the extra weight if it means added stability.



I really don't think so. You have to look at all that magazine crap, and this is if you knitpicking #'s. From what I gather from looking at zine comparos from across the pond and here in the states, and exhaust mfr results for their new slipons/full systems, the new Blade is like 150-153RWHP, and in the same comparos I see the Ninja having like 5 more HP. 5HP? With 150RWHP on tap? With this amount of power, it comes down to the package, and how it all works together.

The Honda in the Motorcyclist comparo is substantially off power. The dyno for the honda was 16rwhp less than the 10r and 10rwhp less than the R1--this is significant. Top speed of 175mph for the Honda vs. 186mph for the 10r and a difference in 1/4mi trap speed of about 5mph is significant.


I'm in agreement with most of what you have said along with this line. But maybe, just maybe, fastest lap times for average riders, IE not fuggin' journalists and racers. What about the rest of us? I don't ride bikes for a zine daily or have the $ or desire to race. Which bike is going to be fastest, or the easiest to go fast on? Which bike is probably going to be the fastest for the average rider out there, and the majority of people buying these things (please excuse the jackass squids here)? Just an opinion, but I'd bet the Honda.




For them, I think they have. They are a very conservative company. Routinely, their compression ratios are lower (at least I think so), and they don't completely string out the compression or capabilities stock. They do this so the bike is more reliable than anything out there. In fact, I think their bikes are the most reliable bikes on the market. When I buy anything, i ask myself, if I get stuck with this, will it last? I can't say that for some of the other mfr's. I can't recall reading someone saying that put X amount of miles on a Ninja or a gixxer, I can say this about Hondas.

It honestly sounds like you are trying to evaluate this to the fullest before you plop down your hard earned currency, very understandable, and aren't trying to start some gay Taz type comparo thread I've only put 400 miles on my new Blade, but I really like it. Think 929/954 with more power, seat o the pants (opinion) more down low (I think Torque at this point, still breaking my engine in so I haven't hammered the throttle from different RPMs, only short bursts, shortshifting at the same time), much more solid front end, much more stable chassis (more confidence for me leaned over), and a better overall package. The bike doesn't feel heavy to me (yes, yes I know I own a RC) and when you get going, the thing flicks fast and stable. And I don't really think it's off or that far off from anything in the class, they are all right there in acceleration, you won't notice the difference on anything but at the track running at 9/10ths or 10/10ths, streetrider forget it, they are all too damn fast. I think as a package, the bike is very fuggin good, and I don't regret my purchase one bit, despite some bs zine articles. And anyway, seems as if the europress begs to differ from what we are reading stateside. I'll know more when I've broken the engine in to my liking and I'm able to flog the thing for a full day (true test). The guy with the R1 admitted that the fairings on the Honda are of much higher quality, I'd agree, but I would say that about the entire bike.
Ah, I purchased the 1000rr and have it in my garage--only 73miles now so I do not know how much power it has yet.

We will have to agree to disagree about the difference exhaust and pciii will make on the Honda. As you can see from another post, the Akra site shows the Honda lost the most weight and gained the most power (with the 10r I think) with a full system to pull it even to the R1. I predict the Arata will once again spank the Akra and post stout gains. As soon as my bike is broken in, it gets full Arata, PCIIIusb with custom map and other goodies. I will do before and after dynos.

As I mentioned before, I love my new 1000r, I just wish it was the performance leader out of the box--not $2-3k later to pull even.
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Old 04-16-2004, 3:45 AM   #9
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Re: Motorcyclist Liter Bike Shootout--Part I Observations

will be looking forward to those numbers mako, hav'nt been able to find any info yet(Arata), weight difference, hp numbers...

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Old 04-16-2004, 5:27 AM   #10
 
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Re: Motorcyclist Liter Bike Shootout--Part I Observations

Saw a ZX10R up close today one the way home form a ride with Futant, I do have to say, the bike looks cery small - is very attractive in person (in black) has a LOT of nice touches (the shock looks like it is worth rebuilding, rather than binning, the forks looks very nice and have the black diamond finish, brake slook like they will stop a semi trailer, wheels look very light and quality of finish looks very good). It Also sounds very nice sitting at idle. The cams ar every noticeable, almost like the cams are run by gears rather than chain, and in general, the engine just sounds good. Also saw a 1000RR in the window ofa shop - it was the butt ugly (to me) tri colour (red/white/antifoul blue) so I chos enot to inspect it close up, I'd rather wait to check one out that I like the colour of. I think a bad coilour choice can make a good bike look really bad.

But anyway, looking forward to actually taking the new blade out in about 2 weeks time...

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Old 04-16-2004, 5:53 AM   #11
 
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Re: Motorcyclist Liter Bike Shootout--Part I Observations

Originally Posted by Zeeman
Saw a ZX10R up close today one the way home form a ride with Futant, I do have to say, the bike looks cery small - is very attractive in person (in black) has a LOT of nice touches (the shock looks like it is worth rebuilding, rather than binning, the forks looks very nice and have the black diamond finish, brake slook like they will stop a semi trailer, wheels look very light and quality of finish looks very good). It Also sounds very nice sitting at idle. The cams ar every noticeable, almost like the cams are run by gears rather than chain, and in general, the engine just sounds good. Also saw a 1000RR in the window ofa shop - it was the butt ugly (to me) tri colour (red/white/antifoul blue) so I chos enot to inspect it close up, I'd rather wait to check one out that I like the colour of. I think a bad coilour choice can make a good bike look really bad.

But anyway, looking forward to actually taking the new blade out in about 2 weeks time...

Z...
Amen to that. I think I'll take it for a ride tomorrow and see how it performs. They did ask me to come back, so why the hell not! I liked the stock frame protector for the knees, and the tank felt quite good between the knees as well. I'd say it'l be a smaller fit, but sometimes this can work out ok. Fit n finish looked great. I guess it'l be a question on how to make it compliant on Australian roads. I mean the standard blade is a pig, as are most sportsbikes at the moment. So I guess it all depends on which bike responds best to "sport touring" suspension set up modifications.

I'll wait till 2005 sometime and make a more informed decision then. It'l only get better!
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Old 04-16-2004, 10:58 PM   #12
 
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Re: Motorcyclist Liter Bike Shootout--Part I Observations

Let us know how it compares to your 954 after riding it!
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Old 04-17-2004, 5:52 AM   #13
 
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Re: Motorcyclist Liter Bike Shootout--Part I Observations

Originally Posted by Zang
Let us know how it compares to your 954 after riding it!
I took the ZX10R for a ride this arvo and it was definately a nice piece of machinery. It actually SOUNDS like a REAL BIKE!!! It has induction noise, exhaust noise ... everything. You crack the throttle and expect small children to be swallowed into the front vent, perhaps just a shoe lace flapping in the breeze.

The throttle response was pretty awesome, nice n smooth. They hadn't given the bike it's 1000km service yet, so there was a bit of play in the cable to stuff things up. I'm sure a quick synchro of the throttle bodies, adjust, oil change etc etc would do it wonders. The gearing is waaaaaaaay tall though, so a few dumbarses will think it's too doughey and doesn't have any bottem end response etc. It certainly pulled pretty hard in my mind. If you wanted to turn it into a weapon you could drop some teeth off the front or rear sprockets depending on exact ratio required. I think they've done this to tame the wild beast.

Suspension felt quite normal for these days, ie stiff but still compliant. It wasn't harsh n stuff like the 954 is. I didn't really get to see whether or not it shakes it's head when you hit bumps in corners though.

It has a cool lap timer that I played with. There's a thumb switch on the right hand side (you push it across like a blinker switch) to switch it on/off, then a lap button on the left that you just dab when you want to set a lap time. I found it pretty sweet, a nice touch anyway.

Switch gear was great (I would take the kwaka stuff any day over the shitty Honda crap, can you tell i've owned a few kwakas??) so that's all good.

It is still however a kwaka, so it hasn't quite got the fit n finish of a Honda, although it's still pretty awesome. Honda seem to always have the upper hand in the refinement stakes, but I really think these are two different bikes. I'd really like to see some more people give one a go, you can't stop ****en laughing so hard like a little school kid at the induction noise and pipe sound. It actually sounds great right out of the box! They've tested it at 97dB standard, so that's pretty awesome considering the 954 is 92dB.

Ah well, I'll give the new CBR1000RR a bash in a few weeks and see what that's like too! All fun n games.
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Old 04-17-2004, 7:19 AM   #14
 
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Re: Motorcyclist Liter Bike Shootout--Part I Observations

argh, should have gone with ya. I'll take one out this week sometime. Saw Aussie929's 1000rr, and the finish on that puppy is sweet. Looks much better in real life than the photos, but I still feel there are some things that could have been done to make it look a little better. Looking forward to taking one out ont he track in about 2 weeks...

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Old 04-17-2004, 9:08 AM   #15
 
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Re: Motorcyclist Liter Bike Shootout--Part I Observations

I just picked up a black zx-10 yesterday (im keeping my 929 too hehe), I only rode it about 3 miles home, so i cant really give any riding good riding impressions yet. i had worked all night and then been at the dealership all day looking at bikes trying to decide what i wanted, so i was too tired to ride that night (and thats pretty dam tired for me).. For a stock exhaust it sounds pretty awesome, and just letting the clutch out in first, i could tell this baby wanted to go. it felt very light and steered VERY quickly. The seat was comfortable and the bike felt alot better on my wrist than the 1000rr did. The 1000rr and the zx10 were parked right next to each, so i grabbed them by the bars and rocked them back and forth a bit, there was quite a bit of weight difference. One of my friends (Sub) has a new 1000rr, so we are going to swap bikes and maybe then we can both give some better feedback about the two bikes. hmm, im just waiting for the sun to come up now.. hehehe where are the keys!?!??!
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