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Clutchless shifting

9K views 35 replies 22 participants last post by  Baketech 
#1 ·
Anybody shift w/o the clutch on a regular basis? Does it tear up the transmission?

I know you wheelie guys do it, but it's just much faster and smoother in general. I wonder what is worse for the bike....shifting at redline is pretty tough on it in general even with the clutch. You end up doing a pretty high rev clutch dump, which should wear out the clutch, and it jerks so that's gotta wear out your transmission and chain too.

I've got warrantee until 2005...maybe I should just drive the piss out of it however I want to?

For people who aren't familar with clutchless shifting, all you do is apply preasure to the shifter and quickly blip the throttle. Anyone use the rev limiter as the throttle blip?
 
#2 ·
There is a simple rule of thumb to consider here.

With any performance vehicle, car, bike, boat, whatever, there is a finite amount of 'goodie' you're going to get out of the machine before you begin having problems with failing parts and systems. The difference in your bike's real, measurable speed when shifting with the clutch v. clutchless shifting is negligible, so..... why do it?

Yeah, I've run through a few gears w/o using the clutch as well, once last spring when Bigkid and I did a couple roll-ons out in the country, but that is perhaps a once a season spur of the moment indiscretion where I'm 'racing' someone...
 
#4 ·
ummm, I can't think of a single racer that ever uses the clutch for upshifts, with the possible exception of some newbies.  Yes, it does beat up the dogs on second and fourth gear, but it DOES in fact save time and result in lower lap times (contrary to Chain's opinion).  It is also much easier on the rest of the motor in general if done properly.  I don't recommend using the rev limiter for anything, as hitting it means a BIG waste of time (except for starts).
 
#5 ·
abtech : ummm, I can't think of a single racer that ever uses the clutch for upshifts, with the possible exception of some newbies.  Yes, it does beat up the dogs on second and fourth gear, but it DOES in fact save time and result in lower lap times (contrary to Chain's opinion).  It is also much easier on the rest of the motor in general if done properly.  I don't recommend using the rev limiter for anything, as hitting it means a BIG waste of time (except for starts).

Jesus abtech. As IRideChasey is pretty new to the forum and hasn't delineated his affinity for organized racing, I have to assume he's like most other members here and is primarily a street rider.

You and the handful of other track gurus might benefit from continual use of the transmission sans use of the clutch lever, but for a majority of street riders here on the forum, your practice is unpractical as best.

Again, in most normal (i.e. non track) scenarios that most 'blades are ridden in, the performance difference is negligible... and you say yourself it's hard on the bike.

This is a no-brainer.
 
#6 ·
This is one of those topics that has been beaten to death on this and just about every other sportbike forum.

I have yet to hear of ANY STREET rider that suffered premature transmission failure due to clutchless upshifting in some 500 plus posts on this subject since 1999. If done properly, it places no more load on the trans than using the clutch. Racing (like you say) is another matter entirely and repeated WFO redline clutchless upshifts (and hundreds of clutchless downshifts) in the heat of battle will wear out the second and fourth gear shift dogs after a few seasons (which is why most racebikes have the trans sorted after every season).

Show me some real proof that it hurts the trans and I will stop doing it on my 1500cc V-Twin Vulcan cruiser.
 
#7 ·
Thanks for the replies. Does anyone have a bike that they've done it for miles on with no ill effects?

As for neglible performance....I really have to disagree with some of you on that. For me it is much MUCH faster. Maybe I'm just slow and stupid with a clutch, but I can clutchless shift in a split second....the engine virtually doesn't lose rpms. When I use a clutch, my engine loses several thousand rpms, and I have to rev it back up while dumping the clutch which always results in a jerk (tough on the bike) no matter how fast I do it.

During casually street riding I don't do it....I lauch in 1st, shift twice to 3rd, and then 3 times to 6th. But when I'm out really riding (there is only one reason to buy a fireblade, R1, GSXR 1000, etc and that is to really ride), it's much faster and smoother.

I always use the clutch when downshifting....unless I'm in 6th gear and I'm cruising up to a traffic light at 30 mph, it will downshift very nicely at low speeds w/o the clutch.
 
#8 ·
I don't always use the clutch to upshift. Have had nothing bad happen Only way I can see it being bad for the tranny is if gears were grinding, which they don't.

As far as using the clutch for upshifting.....There's no need to pull the lever in all the way. It's enough if you just do 1/4 -1/3 pulls on it
 
#9 ·
Pal of mine has his 954 in the shop at the mo having the gearbox rebuilt. I think he lost third gear. Very, very fast guy, does 30+ trackdays a year plus Nurburgring trips on a regular basis. Does indeed give the bike a bit of a hammering and admits to clutchless shifting, I assume up only, and this he blames for his problems.

Having said that 954 boxes are known to e the weak spot of the bike. In last years BSB, they hardly finished a race all season.
 
#12 ·
I use clutch from 1st to 2nd but that’s about it (upshifting) With correct throttle and RPM shifting is nice and smooth without clutching. Now I’m not sure about long term effects, but I bet their minor if any for a Sunday rider like myself?
 
#13 ·
One of the domestic rags down an article on clutchless shifting. Up or down as long as it is done properly has absolutely no ill affects on the tranny what so ever. Period. (Put that in your pipe and smoke it chain ) They even told ya how to do it. I only use clutch when just out for a mellow ride but if I'm getting after it there is no clutch, for upshifts anyway. I done the clutchless downshift and just don't feel comfortable with it.
 
#15 ·
I cannot remember which rag it was or what issue. I'm kinda surprised you haven't read it, you seem to keep up with them. Maybe it's an older issue than I remember.
 
#16 ·
thebackdraft :  I cannot remember which rag it was or what issue.  I'm kinda surprised you haven't read it, you seem to keep up with them.  Maybe it's an older issue than I remember.
I take virtually every moto-rag you can think of; so I too am somewhat surprised that it's not ringing a bell. But I've been drinking while in front of the pc tonight and am reeling from a few head-shots I've taken from Conq and abtech. Thus, my memory is being affected.
 
#17 ·
Gotta go with abtech on this one. Clutchless upshifting, when done properly, is no harder on the trans than when using the clutch IMO. On the track I never use the clutch, except for starting out in first. However, on the street I will use the clutch as I don't typically ride that hard. I do use the clutch for all downshifts though. Sloppy shifting, with or without the clutch, is hardest on the tranny...
 
#18 ·
the clutch doesn't do all that much when you're shifting, all it does is disengage the back wheel from the engine, so if you're rev-matching properly, ie the back wheel and engine are spinning at the exactly appropriate speeds then it's just the same as using the clutch so either way it doesn't matter, the thing with using the clutch is that you have to let it back out again, it's at this point that you generally have a mismatch in revs between wheel and engine, hence the 'crack' or 'jerk' that you get if doing it fast, so clutch shifting is actually harder to pull off fast and is harder on the bike.

the dogs wear a little bit more if you dont' rev-match very well, but if you do it well then there will be no extra stress on them for not using the clutch. It doesn't seem to cause all that many problems considering all the people that dont' use the clutch.


my personal technique is as follows, 1st to 2nd use clutch as the jump betwen those 2 gears is quite large, but from then on up I don't use the clutch, always use the clutch on the way down the gears.

the jump from 1st to 2nd is a different case also because you're not just moving from one gear straight to another, you're going through neutral, which makes it like clutchless shifting in a car, which is a litle more difficult to get right than on a bike, I probably haven't explained it very well though.


Ben
 
#19 ·
Ben, I'm with you exactly on this one. The 1st to 2nd just doesn't feel good, but the rest are really smooth.

Can anyone redline it, shift with the clutch and do it smoothly? I sure can't. It drops revs too quickly and I'm not going to watch the tach, rev it to the right rpm and then release the clutch. The idea is to shift as quickly as possible, and if you're at redline it's probably I good idea to be watching where you're going because you're getting their pretty fast
 
#20 ·
I just looked at an example of what happens when someone does clutchless upshifts with a heavy foot and lazy right hand - engagement dogs are rounded off to the point that they don't stay in gear, and the corresponding shift forks got a bit of machining done to them, to boot.

Clutchless upshifts are not bad for the transmission if done properly. The clutch is meant to take to load off of the gears so that they can slide smoothly and easily while being moved back and forth.

Rolling off the throttle enough while holding a little pressure on the shift lever does the same thing, but it takes practice to do smoothly and without collateral damage.

I've seen a lot of riders do the tap dance on the shift lever, like they're riding a dirt bike. Transmissions hate that.
 
#21 ·
I may be weird, ok I'm weird. I almost never use the clutch, up or down. I don't ride on a track yet, but nothing feels better than going into corner and being able to match the revs and ground speed then smoothly drop down a gear. It's better than sex IMHO. Or to power out of a corner and click up almost as smooth. It is a beautiful feeling to shift w/o the clutch and feel no jerk or shudder. I actually practice trying to be smooth more than fast.
 
#22 ·
IRideChasey : Thanks for the replies.  Does anyone have a bike that they've done it for miles on with no ill effects?
My 2001 929 had 18,500 miles of clutchless upshifts on it in 16 months time... No problems.

My RC51 had 10,600 miles of the clutchless shifting with no ill effects also...

At every gear change, a clutchless upshift is at least one bike length...
 
#23 ·
A good post by 'Super Dave' Rosno on the CCS Boards about this subject:



Ok, stop using the clutch on up shifts.  Do I have to say this again.

How about this....  Heat and debris.  You're accelerating hard and you up shift using the clutch, the clutch is hooked up, now it is not, and it has to hook up again.  Lots of heat and clutch material gets worn.  

The unloading of the chassis is huge.

MC transmissions are very basic.  All you need to do is unload the trans and shift; it's very basic.  If you wear out a trans doing this, there are other issues.

And we're racing here!  This isn't street riding, but even then, when I do take the chance of street riding, I seldom upshift using the clutch.  It's seemless.




It doesn't matter if you're racing or doing spirited street riding; the technique isn't hard to learn.  
 
#24 ·
Some 57 yrs into riding & with the bikes in the past 20 plus yrs I just tap the clutch lever when up or down shifting, but then what does 'tap' mean other then to the person doing it & so using the word? The clutch was put there for a good reason so I use it though it might just be a light touch though a bit more when down shifting.
Since IRideChasey is new to riding m/cs then my suggestion is to use the clutch lever as it was intended---you will soon develop your tap or light pull in of the clutch lever when up shifting & a bit heavier tap when down shifting.
 
#26 ·
IRideChasey : Can anyone redline it, shift with the clutch and do it smoothly?  I sure can't.  It drops revs too quickly and I'm not going to watch the tach, rev it to the right rpm and then release the clutch.
Smitty and other have hit on this already....but I'll add my 2 cents.

Its easy if you learn to just barely touch the clutch.....never let the plates get free. It takes only the slightest pressure. If your tach is dropping then you are pulling too much clutch getting out of the gas too much....

Here's a great drill for practicing this:
Find a deserted straight stretch of road and set your speed at say 60mph. Once your speed is stable, practice rowing up a gear or two and then back down WITHOUT changing your speed. Try to keep your roadspeed at a fixed 70mph. This helps you focus on smooth clutch and throttle transitions. Now give it a whirl at say 80mph or whatever your personal level of comfort.

Once you get the hang of it, its easy to apply those skills and muscle memories to acceleration.
 
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