It's so easy to forget...

Phadreus · 07-06-2007, 11:29 PM

Hi all,

I hope none of you mind; but I just had to share a recent experience that I’m still thinking about…

I went for a 100+ mile ride in Southern Ohio on some of the “twistiest” roads that I’ve had the pleasure of riding. Lots of elevation changes, all out in the country on clean freshly paved roads with very little traffic to contend with. I spent the day riding with two of my cousins that I’ve ridden dirt bikes with since I was five. We all bought street bikes together when we were old enough and have ridden together many miles.

In the last five years, both of them “switched” from Honda Sport bikes, to Honda Cruisers, and finally they both went to a couple of HD’s. A Fat Boy and a Full Dresser they now have. Well, I still have my trusty CBR954 and am still quite happy with it. After riding my bike fifty miles or so, I switched with my cousin who had the Fatboy for the rest of the ride. Wow, I mean wow; what a huge difference in riding experience it was. It was like getting out of the cockpit of an F16 and getting into the cockpit of a Sopwith Camel. In every measurable way, the big HD was…lacking, for lack of better words. No lean angle, no power, no brakes, no excitement what so ever. Don’t get me wrong, the Fatboy was certainly a beautiful machine, but for me that’s all it offered. I wasn’t even that comfortable on it.

When we finally got back home and was all standing around talking and ogling our bikes, my cousin that rode my 954 kept looking at his hands. I asked him “are your hands bothering you?”. He said “no, for some reason my hands were shaking when I got of your bike, and to be honest, my knees were a little wobbly”. I told him “that’s the sign of a good bike; one that makes you week in the knees and your hands shake”. Ya gotta love it! Funny, I didn’t have that problem when I stepped of his Fatboy…

What has been on my mind since is how much performance we take for granted with liter class Sportbikes today. We are very fortunate to be living in an age where one can buy SO much performance right off the showroom floor for relatively so little money. When I first started riding 900cc Sportbikes (started on a GPZ900 Ninja), they offered little more performance than what our 600’s are offering today. What will we be riding in another 20 years?

Anyway, thanks for listening guys!

.OrgOwner · 07-06-2007, 11:32 PM

Great post - thanks for sharing that!

sscottab · 07-07-2007, 6:51 AM

I know what you mean I have also rode many cruisers and I dont like them for the same reasons you posted, and the HD are the worst IMO, I do feel much more comfortable on my sport bikes. on another note i dusted off the 85 cb700sc I also own and been putting some miles on that to clean out the old gas and keep it going good, even though that seems weak to me it still is more powerful then most cruisers and handles better, and I forgot how comfortable that seat realy is, I will probly put some miles on it this year.

Abjatrer · 07-07-2007, 8:22 AM

Why does another man's bike always make you shake and wobble - even if the two of you have the same bike?!

the thrill of someone else's ride!

Phadreus · 07-07-2007, 10:46 AM

Quote:

Originally Posted by sscottab

<snip>...on another note i dusted off the 85 cb700sc I also own and been putting some miles on that to clean out the old gas and keep it going good, even though that seems weak to me it still is more powerful then most cruisers and handles better, and I forgot how comfortable that seat realy is, I will probly put some miles on it this year.

That is TOO funny; you and I must have VERY similar taste. My first "sport" bike was an '85 Nighthawk S and I had and absolute blast riding that bike. I could stay perched on it for hours with no fatigue, it sounded great, looked cool and revved to the moon (for the day). I always thought the shaft drive made the handling a little quirky...but it never bothered me much really.

I also had some mid 80's shadows; 500, 700 & 750 and those bikes were actually great handling bikes for a cruiser type. I always wanted the V65, but couldn't find any that would insure me on one at that time...guess the thought I was too young and dumb?

Enjoy!

Phadreus · 07-07-2007, 10:50 AM

Quote:

Originally Posted by Abjatrer

Why does another man's bike always make you shake and wobble - even if the two of you have the same bike?!

the thrill of someone else's ride!

In the case of my cousin, I don't think he was expecting so much...of everything; power, brakes, cornering...it's alot to take in for a first ride. It's funny, I have the same reaction when I go for my first ride on my bike when I get it out of winter storage...always makes me a little week in the knees...ya gotta love it!

flea954rr · 07-07-2007, 12:51 PM

totally understand. grew up riding dirt bike then about 7 years ago got a softail. very fun at the time, but as it turns out only because i didn't know any better. when people ask me why i switched, and would never go back to a hog, i put it this way. its like getting driving a school bus, then driving a sportscar. a sportbike brakes, handles, and does everything better. plus power is the only friend i have most of the time riding everyday in L.A. it also doesn't leak oil and always starts.

Phadreus · 07-07-2007, 3:21 PM

I personally wish HD offered something in a Sportbike, perhaps using the Revolution engine (a hopped up version of it at least). Something akin to a Ducatti would be about right. I would probably buy something like that if it were reasonably priced and on par with the competition. The Buells don't cut it and quite honestly are a bad joke for a motorcycle IMO. I just don't understand why HD doesn't want to have coverage in the SBK Market. I know we have the enginuity to build a decent bike here in the US...why don't we have the will. I have to believe there is a market for a US SBK. Hmm...

nedro · 07-07-2007, 3:52 PM

Really, what makes you think Harley has the ingenueity?
It's not like much has changed in the last half century.
And better yet, why would they? They haven't marketed their product to motorcycle riders for decades. Why would they start now?
I'm not joking or making fun of them. Just stating some facts.
The reason Ducati and Harley would be a good fit is because they both manufacture ladies underwear and sell them in their butiques. Which also have motorcycles in some of their locations.

Phadreus · 07-07-2007, 4:46 PM

Quote:

Originally Posted by nedro

Really, what makes you think Harley has the ingenueity?
It's not like much has changed in the last half century.
And better yet, why would they? They haven't marketed their product to motorcycle riders for decades. Why would they start now?
I'm not joking or making fun of them. Just stating some facts.
The reason Ducati and Harley would be a good fit is because they both manufacture ladies underwear and sell them in their butiques. Which also have motorcycles in some of their locations.

When I say we, I'm referring to American Manufacturers in general, but in this case, let's stick to HD as the example. I DO believe if HD really set their sites on building a reputable SBK, they could. What I'm perplexed is why they won't do it? The only thing I can speculate is that they have all the bread and butter they want in Cruisers and clothing (as you alluded to).

I don't think one can dismiss Ducati as a respectable SBK builder just because they sell apparel, can they? They are still competitive in racing and do offer the motorcycle community something unique and uncommon. I'm only saying that I think HD could do the same, if they wanted to. Your point is well taken and I certainly can't take argument with any of it, I just wish the US offered something in a SBK that I could be proud to ride.

America has had a reputation of being innovative in the world manufacturing arena for a long time, and there is no disputing the US is quite capable of producing anything we want of top notch quality. Now doing all of that at a competitive rate is another story...

KJ's RR · 07-07-2007, 4:47 PM

It's funny I haven't been on here for quite awhile. Fathers day i took the bike to work 63 mi highway & turnpike. Complained to the wife of tingle in hands & not fun to ride @ 75mph+ on those boring roads. Her reply was " you need to get a HD, you're too old for the CBR now." I've been ACTUALLY thinking about it since that day

. Then I come on here, read this thread & start thinking, hey I don't have to ride on those boring highways & I STILL LOVE riding my CBR954RR

So unless she gives

to KEEP the RR & buy a HD I ain't converting to just owning an HD for my 2 wheel habbit, have quad, boat & 954RR

Phadreus · 07-07-2007, 5:56 PM

It's funny KJ; the ONLY time I have any comfot issues ridding my 954 is on long straight rides or rides in heavy traffic. I think the mind can focus more on things like comfort when it's not engaged in enjoying the better parts of the riding experience.

I'm just not convinced that an HD is the cure for this issue...

*Fastrr* · 07-07-2007, 7:04 PM

LOL yep, a 100+ hp sportbike will make your knees week and hands shake at first. I remember when i rode mine the first couple times... scared me.

I remember hearing on the rock-u-mentary "Faster" that the GP 500 2 strokes scared the crap out even those guys and they rode them often.

*ratchetman* · 07-07-2007, 8:39 PM

I'm planing on buying a cruiser when I'm too old and decrepit to ride a sport bike.

Blackjaxx360 · 07-08-2007, 2:40 AM

Quote:

Originally Posted by ratchetman

I'm planing on buying a cruiser when I'm too old and decrepit to ride a sport bike.

Of course, it will most likely be a Goldwing. My uncle has one and it is sweet!

soupnazi · 07-08-2007, 5:37 AM

HD are primarily a trend and fashion company. Their catlogues are full of weasel speak designed to sell you more crap to customise your bike to make it your ultimate riding machine.

Imagine you've just bought a HD and are then confronted with the news that it's not unique therefore requiring you to change all these components (we're talking tassles, leather studded tank covers and a plethora of other highly important stuff) before it's truly what you want. At great expense of course.

I've ridden a few harleys and can only surmise that they're only enjoyable when you have a long stretch of road and don't have to do such things as corner or brake.

Their marketing material is aimed at people with more dollars than sense. There is nothing, I feel, about their bikes that sparks the sensation of 'freedom'.

And on the performance aspect I don't think it's all Harley's fault that they're still making the same tractor engines for the past hundred years. Part of it is consumer demand. For example, BMW tried a few years ago to phase out it's boxer engine only to be met with an outcry by it's riders because they loved the engine so much.

Phadreus · 07-08-2007, 10:51 AM

Quote:

Originally Posted by soupnazi

HD are primarily a trend and fashion company. Their catlogues are full of weasel speak designed to sell you more crap to customise your bike to make it your ultimate riding machine.

Imagine you've just bought a HD and are then confronted with the news that it's not unique therefore requiring you to change all these components (we're talking tassles, leather studded tank covers and a plethora of other highly important stuff) before it's truly what you want. At great expense of course.

I've ridden a few harleys and can only surmise that they're only enjoyable when you have a long stretch of road and don't have to do such things as corner or brake.

Their marketing material is aimed at people with more dollars than sense. There is nothing, I feel, about their bikes that sparks the sensation of 'freedom'.

And on the performance aspect I don't think it's all Harley's fault that they're still making the same tractor engines for the past hundred years. Part of it is consumer demand. For example, BMW tried a few years ago to phase out it's boxer engine only to be met with an outcry by it's riders because they loved the engine so much.

Well spoke Mate! HD is selling nothing more than an illusion of romance. My hat's off to them though, they market the romance well, they know what their market wants and they provide it to them at a handsome profit. I wish my company could hire the marketing people from HD to come and help my company out in sales...LOL

The overwhelming response from HD owners that I speak to say when asked about their choice to buy a Sportster for their first bike; they really didn't care what bike they got, their wives had more to do with the choice than anything. They consistently show that they (HD Owners) know very little about technology and what other manufacturers offer in Motorcycles and more often than not I hear this fraise which absolutely kills me; "you don't understand, owning a Harley is a lifestyle choice, it's not about riding motorcycle it's about becoming part of a larger community of brothers and sisters". Is it just me or is that all total BS?

*ratchetman* · 07-08-2007, 11:12 AM

I was in one of the big bike shops close to my house and there was this old Chinese guy must have been 70. He was sitting on an 07 600rr, an f4i and a new zx6. My comment to him was "you wouldn't buy one of those, would you?" He then started tell me with english so poor I could hardly understand, that he owned an 03 zx6, a sportster and a goldwing. He wanted to get the 07 zx6 but his insurance co would not cover the newer model. He went on and on about how he loved the kawasaki. Maybe he worked for them or something. As I left the store there was the sportster with a muzzy sticker.

Another time I talked to one guy with a sportster, he said for him it was all about insurance. The difference on insurance made the sportster more affordable for him than the sportbikes. He also liked the accessories available. He had on longer forks and a bunch of look at me gaudy chrome. 60's chopper style.

One of the guys at the dealer where I bought my bike was looking at a harley, after a ride he told me that it was over rated and vibrated too much. In fact the vibration of the harley gave bikes such a bad rap that many older folks born in north america will tell you that you don't want to ride a bike cause the vibrations will kill you.

*Fastrr* · 07-08-2007, 10:07 PM

One of my good friends owns a harley sportster, he loves it. harley isn't my cup of tea though. I like light and fast bikes

Phadreus · 07-08-2007, 11:22 PM

Quote:

Originally Posted by Fastrr

One of my good friends owns a harley sportster, he loves it. harley isn't my cup of tea though. I like light and fast bikes

My neighbor just sold his '03 883CL a couple of weeks ago. I remember when he first got it he told me the Sales Drone at the dealership told him that "...you got allot of bike here now, there isn't another bike on the road that will hang with it...". Wow, I didn't know what to say as my neighbor didn't know any better as it was his first bike. I didn't say a word just listened and looked forward to our first ride together. When we came back from our first ride together he drove up his driveway, into his garage and closed the door. I called him from my house later and he was so p*ssed that the Salesman lied to him. He couldn't get over how fast I passed him as he was "giving it all it was worth" as he stated. I didn't have the heart to tell him I never went over 8K RPM.

The same guy also told me in conversation that he read on the web that his 883 had a top speed of 135 mph. I told him that it wouldn't hit 135 if you threw it out of an airplane. He laughed and said he had never had it over 70, but was sure it would do 135 mph. I shook my head in disbelief. He threw me the key and said "go see for yourself". So, I threw on my lid and headed out to our ol' abandoned airfield which has long straight stretches over a mile long. I sat at the top of a 2 mile long service strip which has a 2% downhill grade to it (according to my bicycle altimeter). I clunked the Sportster into 1st and dumped the clutch and with a nice little serge, off I went. I wound out first and power shifted into 2nd (no tach so I just waited for the valves to float a little at the top end...he hee) and then into third. I still wasn't even up to 100 mph, so I tucked down, dropped my elbows, turned my feet in and dropped into 4th. I broke a hundred and continued a very slow climb upward; 101....102....103....104....thought about how many bikes I could think of that was faster than this one...106...106 and a half...107 and that was it. 107 mph going down a 2% grade and that was as good as it gets.

Now his "Sporty" as he called it had open pipes, high flow air filter and had been re-jetted. I would hesitate to say all that was probably worth the last 5mph. He didn't have much to say when I got back to his house. I will never forget that experience, and how bad I felt for him...I almost couldn't bring myself to tell him that 107 was it's top speed but I couldn't endorse the lie either.

I have had SO many HD owners tell me how fast their bikes are...it amazes me. Performance and speed were never HD's goals with their bikes, I'm not sure why so many people that own them think of their bikes as fast.

Sorry so long, but I thought it was a funny story to share...

Enjoy guys!

soupnazi · 07-08-2007, 11:30 PM

Quote:

Originally Posted by Phadreus

"you don't understand, owning a Harley is a lifestyle choice, it's not about riding motorcycle it's about becoming part of a larger community of brothers and sisters".

Take two steps back and observe what we're addressing here. As motorcycle riders we're sitting here on a motorcycle forum (often directly called a 'community') discussing things including but not limited to a motorcycle nature. This is called an online community.

I'm also a member of forums local to me whereby I meet and ride with other folks. Some of them have become my very good friends in the flesh whom I value. This is community by definition.

Only one of the blokes that's part of that closer community rides a harley and he acknowledges that it's an armchair on wheels but enjoys it nonetheless.

Also, for the record I took an 883 Sportster for a spin last year and was surprised to find that not only is it gutless with what is ostensibly a 900cc motor, but the position of the handle bars is incredibly uncomfortable. Perhaps they did this on purpose to encourage the purchasing of custom shaped HD ape hangers but the angle of the handgrips were very narrow almost requiring you to touch your elbows infront of your chest to get the correct grip, even then causing ache in the wrists.

To top it all off I couldn't even go around a corner at any decent speed, and I'm not being unrealistic with corner speed expectations as anything more than a 65 degree direction change requires a speed drop to avoid excessive scraping.

How any of the above is related to 'sport' is beyond me. Perhaps the aspect of sport where you sit on the couch eating crisps and guzzling beer.

Phadreus · 07-08-2007, 11:52 PM

Quote:

Originally Posted by soupnazi

Take two steps back and observe what we're addressing here. As motorcycle riders we're sitting here on a motorcycle forum (often directly called a 'community') discussing things including but not limited to a motorcycle nature. This is called an online community.

I'm also a member of forums local to me whereby I meet and ride with other folks. Some of them have become my very good friends in the flesh whom I value. This is community by definition.

Only one of the blokes that's part of that closer community rides a harley and he acknowledges that it's an armchair on wheels but enjoys it nonetheless.<snip>

I think you make a great point here Soup. The social aspect of motorcycling is a HUGE aspect no doubt on both sides of the equation (SBK's and Cruisers). I can say that there have been times that I have enjoyed standing in my driveway after a ride with my neighbors talking about our bikes and riding almost as much as actually riding them...almost.

Where I take issue with the conversations I have with the HD community is when they want to start talking "performance". Now I never try to paint a picture of my 954 as being the most comfortable bike that I can sit on for five hour rides, so why do so many HD owners try to paint pictures of their bikes of being fast? Firstly; I have to say "they just don't know any better" is part of it. Every time the conversation goes to performance, I always ask if any of them has ever ridden in of the "Jap" SBK's...invariably, the answer is consistently "no". Now I have ridden a good deal of HD's over the years and the ONLY one that I got off saying "not bad" was the V-rod. The V-rod was in the realm of a decent 600 Sportbike...in acceleration that is. When I talk with HD guys that have ridden the V-rod, their descriptions are reminiscent of a "rocket ship". I guess all of this is relative to experiences is what I'm trying to say.

My neighbor with the 883 actually rode my 954 home from a cruise in one night and the first thing he said when he stepped off of it and took his helmet off was: "You are absolutely &%$# nuts to ride that thing". He was visibly shaken up and could not figure out why anyone would ever want that much power. So I told him "Its like this my friend; HP is just like sex, allot is good, more is better and too much...well that's juuust right". He walked away shaking his head.

*ratchetman* · 07-09-2007, 8:18 PM

Quote:

Originally Posted by Phadreus

107 mph going down a 2% grade and that was as good as it gets.
have had SO many HD owners tell me how fast their bikes are...it amazes me.

I went on a couple of rides 18 years ago with some harley folks. They seemed to think my 1973 T500 would have trouble keeping up, and were surprised when I had no trouble at all. That old Zuk would do 110mph.

Quote:

Originally Posted by soupnazi

Only one of the blokes that's part of that closer community rides a harley and he acknowledges that it's an armchair on wheels but enjoys it nonetheless.

Guys I ride with call them a couch but you know it's nice to sit on a couch once in a while.

Quote:

Originally Posted by Phadreus

"Its like this my friend; HP is just like sex, allot is good, more is better and too much...well that's juuust right". He walked away shaking his head.

That sounds about right. Too much until you have trouble walking.

Nine54Dave · 07-09-2007, 10:41 PM

I've got a 69 Harley FLH that I would never get rid of. It's slow as hell, handles like an old truck, brakes - not much, vibrates like hell, but I love that old bike. Talk about a contrast. Try getting off a 954 and hopping on that old beast! Both are very cool in their own way.

Getsome · 07-09-2007, 10:48 PM

I get that feeling every time I get done teaching the BRC and get back on my bike.

soupnazi · 07-10-2007, 12:23 AM

Quote:

Originally Posted by Getsome

I get that feeling every time I get done teaching the BRC and get back on my bike.

What's the BRC?

m0nSteR TwIn · 07-10-2007, 2:27 AM

I just got my RC a few weeks ago after not having owned a bike for various marriage related issues for about 6 years. I decided before I even started looking that I wanted an RC51. I remember so vividly the day I first saw one cornering past me while stopped at a light on my 87' ZX600. The bike made me weak in the knees just to see it. I have been passionate about motorcycling since the first time I rode and my new RC gives me more pleasure than any other THING I've ever had. I work in a blue collar environment and lots of guys ride hogs. I find it interesting that when you get them individually they all show great interest in my "crotch rocket". It's only in a group that they feel they have to desparage me for my lifestyle choice. I think it means that deep down inside we all just love bikes.

Regardless of what you ride (Couch on wheels or blade'), or where you ride (street or track) it is a lifestyle choice. If coaxing an FLH down the highway gives them the same feeling as my ride gives me, I'm glad for them.

It doesn't matter what you ride, as long as you ride.

Having said all that, I can't see one redeaming quality in any full dress touring bike. But that's just me.

nedro · 07-10-2007, 12:50 PM

Quote:

Originally Posted by m0nSteR TwIn

Regardless of what you ride (Couch on wheels or blade'), or where you ride (street or track) it is a lifestyle choice.

That's funny. I do all four!

Phadreus · 07-10-2007, 3:42 PM

Quote:

Originally Posted by Nine54Dave

<snip> Both are very cool in their own way.

Nine, I think you have hit on the real issue; "their own way". HD's aren't cool in a performance way, as Sportbikes aren't cool in an "armchair comfort" sorta way. My beef is when guys blurr the difference and look at HD's as cool in a performance sorta way.

Later!

Nine54Dave · 07-10-2007, 4:57 PM

Phadreus, yes, I've run into a few of those types over the years. They haven't a clue what performance actually is.