Stumble below 3000

MateFeedKill · 08-05-2007, 5:36 AM

Help me, I've got a little stumble below 3000 RPM's Bike ran perfect before I took the MSF course and spent three days overheating in first gear with all of the smaller bikes. My generator died and it's been replaced, since then it's been a hard troubleshoot for me. No excessive fule smell form the exhaust but it seems like it's running rich. Above 3Grand it runs like a champ despite heating to 110 degrees C in heavy traffic. replaced my Pulse gen and rotor but I am still at a loss for a fix. Does anyone have a suggestion for me maybe fuel system filter or pressure reg?

MateFeedKill · 08-17-2007, 8:39 AM

Ok I get it, After browsing the .org a bit it seems this is a very common problem so I realize why it didn't rate any replies. Pull the vacuum line from the pressure regulator and get a spray of gas ok Duh I've got a blown diaphragm. Any way thanks to the vast number of people who replied to the numerous other posts as for the over heating I guess I've just gotten enough gas in my oil supply from flowing through the vacuum line it isn't lubricating as well. Parts are on order and it's oil change time even though I had new oil and a filter not too long ago

*Fastrr* · 08-17-2007, 11:46 PM

Hey no problem lol.

MateFeedKill · 09-12-2007, 5:44 AM

Ok update, Pressure Reg sure was leaking ang giving me a hard time but I replaced it and no luck. Shot the wire harness all over after my headlight burned out while holding my brake lever and I fixed a short in the wire going to my headlight. Found one cold header and shot the wire to the top of my coil pack. kind of cool I could see the guage on the multimeter rise and fall every time She wanted to fire that Cylinder. Pulled the Coil Pack and Spark plug and Voila!!! no spark from that plug. Maybe I should have looked into the Coil Packs earlier but you live and learn

Twincam · 09-12-2007, 9:47 AM

Glad to hear its ok,

But 110oC from the bike? My fan kicks in about 100oC and will bring it down o about 95 - it runs at about 89 on open road. Are the running temps different in different places around the world?

MateFeedKill · 09-13-2007, 5:19 AM

Quote:

Originally Posted by Twincam

Glad to hear its ok,

But 110oC from the bike? My fan kicks in about 100oC and will bring it down o about 95 - it runs at about 89 on open road. Are the running temps different in different places around the world?

Yeah, Haven't ridden since I narrowed my problem down to the coil pack b/c parts are still on order however.....I am guessing that running on 3 cylinders and dragging the other one has a lot to do with the bike heating up so much. Okinawa has a stop light about every 15m or so no joke!! but it still runs a bit hotter 98-99 on the open road. I will post again next week after I have had the chance to put my new coil in and let you know. Hoping to see about the same temp range you are seeing from your 954, my bike is european specification and not japanese.

Twincam · 09-13-2007, 4:01 PM

Hmm, in traffic and at start / stop mine creeps up to about 98 then hits 100 and starts cooling down. The european ones arnt restricted i believe, i love it anyway...

MateFeedKill · 09-16-2007, 6:31 AM

Don't really know what makes a euro spec besides the VIN number being a bit longer than the Japanese ones but I am pretty fond of mine too.

Rider · 09-16-2007, 6:54 AM

Normally the temp should not go over 102... But once I have seen mine creep very slow to 108 when I had the bike running in very hot wheather, revving it for a few minutes.... Bike was on the stand, and I was revving the engine to 4-6k for a few minutes...

The euro spec bikes are quite different from the jap spec ones in many ways... The jap restrictions are mostly in the intake side of things... One of the intake snorkels is blocked. It has smaller Throttle body necks to restrick airflow... and different ECU mapping which can be overcome with a jumper wire somewhere... I think the jap version only makes 100bhp... Oh and the muffler is smaller diameter internally...

MateFeedKill · 09-20-2007, 4:50 AM

OK, so Changed one ignition coil on the cylinder with the cold header I've got a little bit of my power back but She's not 100% quite yet, still get a bunch of pop from the exhaust around 2500 to 3 grand and all of the header pipes are pretty hot now pretty evenly. I am running a bit cooler though, most I could get after a good warm up and a fairly long ride through traffic was 105. I just want all of the horsepower back!!!! Think I will change the other 3 coils and see what happens. Getting ready to give up and take my Blade to one of the bike shops here, try my best Jap/english and hope for a miracle

kiai · 09-20-2007, 6:18 AM

thought they could speak more english around okinawa had same issues when I was around tokyo too =[ good luck mate I ended up learning japanese lol

Rider · 09-21-2007, 2:47 PM

did you change the sparkplugs? I'm not sure how well they recover after operating with a faulty FPR and coil pack....

MateFeedKill · 09-25-2007, 5:05 AM

Changed the plugs after the fpr and before the coil pack but only rode around the block after the plug change and parked it before the coil pack change. A "know it all" that I work with has been telling me CBR's have a problem with certain exhausts have you all heard anything about this?? Don't think there is any merit to what he is saying what so ever. Something about D&D not making enough back pressure but that valve at the header collector stays closed before 3000 rpm's if I am not mistaken so my issue is certainly not related to my pipe. Oh and for kiai, they try to speak english but we like to call it "engrish" and they struggle as much as I do I would be waaaaaay better to take your advice and learn Japanese myself

Renegade929 · 09-26-2007, 2:00 PM

D&D is fine, the HTEV is what helps with your backpressure.....closed down low, and opens up when you get on it....people don't like D&D because they are loud,mines loud ,but i would rather have my D&D than a stock can...

MateFeedKill · 09-27-2007, 5:07 AM

Quote:

Originally Posted by Renegade929

D&D is fine, the HTEV is what helps with your backpressure.....closed down low, and opens up when you get on it....people don't like D&D because they are loud,mines loud ,but i would rather have my D&D than a stock can...

I Really like a bit louder of a pipe, my D&D sounds great to me, what happens at 3000 rpm's, is that when the HTEV opens up? I'm wondering if my cam chain has skipped a tooth Because yesterday it actually backfired rather than the usual deceleration pop I've gotten used to. I associate backfiring with timing, Coming from a family of auto mechanics even though my Dad always blamed everything on a vacuum leak no matter what was going on. I'm at my wit's end here, seems that I've replaced like 800 bucks worth of parts and still haven't fixed my problem

If I'd known I'd have just bought a junk motor and rebuilt it. Does valve shimming have any impact on low end power? Is there an easy way to test my ECU at home? I'm about to take her in to a bike shop and get hosed out of a lot of money and I hate to do that..........

MateFeedKill · 11-01-2007, 9:29 PM

Update, WTF I now have a clunk noise at part throttle at take off, noticed it yesterday in stop and go traffic. It makes a low clunk from the forward side of the bike, it seems like all engine noise stopped for a split second at the same time.

bignibb · 11-02-2007, 11:01 PM

maybe its a vacume leak! lol

Haggler · 11-03-2007, 5:41 PM

Sounds like the Servo motor is playing up maybe??It moves oneway at 3000 and then the otherway at 8000.At least check it cus it,ll play havoc with your performance if its not operating correctly.

Try read this

Just thought I,d share with those riding/owning FireBlades with the 929 & 954 engines that if you are riding or have started up and get Blink Code 35 that perhaps you should stop and at the very least disconnect the Servo Motor that powers the EGCV valve in the exhaust headers.

Why I hear you say?

It seems (and this is straight from Honda UK) that in some cases it is found that the plastic gears located in the servo motor can shear their teeth and as the gears will no longer turn the positioning sensor into the correct position it needs to be in it will allow the motor inside the servo to carry on rotating and thus making the ECU fail and the only course of repair is a new ECU!

I,ve found out the hard way ,so as to warn others here is a very quick way of checking that it is infact operating.

With the ignition OFF reach under the left hand side of the tank/frame and you can feel a DRUM with cables attached to it,Turn ignition ON whilst touching the DRUM,you should feel it move into the central position,START engine and blip the throttle just over 3000 rpm,the drum should rotate 90 degrease and then return back to original position,then take the rev,s up to 3000 and just past 8000 rpm and you will feel it rotate one way and then the other way,and as the rev,s return to idle so will the DRUM return back to the central position.

At this point I might just add that as long as the servo motor rotates as above it will only indicate that the servo motor is working, You may have a snapped cable at the EGCV valve and might result in your engine running rough or down on power and the only other way is to remove the cable cover at the EGCV valve and watch them operate as you blip the throttle

If it functions like this all is OK as far as operation.........BUT

How many of us truly service our bikes correctly,not many I,m sure if we,re honest

The cables to the Valve are known to semi-seize(good indication is that at the cable adjuster the cable gets bent out of alignment causing the cable to drag internally putting a load on the very fragile plastic teeth in the servo motor)Take it from me checking as to weather the cables are free is a right pain in the bum but a ECU is a fortune to replace.

If you do your own servicing then allow time to check the cables,it,s worth it.

How I checked my cables

Make sure it,s a cold engine for a start (cus you,ll burn them fingers)Remove the left hand side fairings (It,s possible to do the check with them on but a pain)
Follow the Headers from the Cylinder Head down till you come to the first join(The EGCV valve is here)Remove Chrome cover (2 Bolts)
This will expose another cable drum with 2 cables attached.The Drum is secured to the valve with a 6mm nut,remove the nut to release the drum,Where the cables are secured by means of a bkt and 2 more bolts ,remove these and the drum and cables will be sitting in your hands.
At this point you need to check one cable at a time and suggest you know where the servo motor is cus you'll need to make sure that the outer part of the cable returns back into the slot it came from,To check if the cable is free just work the outer part of the cable back n forth along the inner part of the cable,should move freely but if in dought I,d spend those penny's and get a couple of new ones.

Setting Up of the cables is covered in section 5.95 of the workshop manual and theres also a section in 21.1 that will tell you of the operation .

Take it from me YOU REALLY NEED TO CHECK THESE

MateFeedKill · 11-08-2007, 5:07 AM

Good Info!!! Too Bad Mine are working as advertised so that rules out the EGCV as my problem but thanks for the great info. Need I say I will be checking these cables and Servo from now on regardless...

Rider · 11-08-2007, 11:54 AM

I would be very interested to see how you solve this, as I'm having the same problems.

I drive the bike daily anyway, as its ok above 3k, but its a struggle in low revs.

I too changed my coil pack, all 4 of them, which helped a bit, and for a few seconds/minutes it was running on all 4 and idleing smooth etc. then it went again.

What cyl is not firing on your? No3 I believe its on mine, and maybe sometimes No2 as the outter 2 cylinders seem to be very sensitive and when I cut one off the bike immediatelly dies, while if I do the same with 2 or 3 it seems to has a lesser effect...

I have not changed my plugs after replacing the coils... But it worked for a few minutes and then died again.

When I spray carb cleaner in the intakes, it first struggles but then after a few revolutions, it seems to pick up for a bit and work ok(smooth idle etc) for a few seconds and then dies again...

MateFeedKill · 11-09-2007, 12:55 AM

Did the check on my EGCV and revved to 3grand, revved to 8grand and shut down, in that time my outer cylinders were hot and my inner two were warm but no where near as warm as the outers..Rider, do you have the same overheating issues? I have reluctantly stopped riding mine for now even though it is killing me. Have you pulled the injectors and seen what they look like yet? I think that may be my next course of action

Rider · 11-09-2007, 11:05 AM

No overheating on mine.

injectors have been changed with other used ones. No luck. Then originals were cleaned and reinstalled. still no luck.

Biggest improvement so far has been the swap of the coils with newer ones. But now its intermitent. like 70% of the time... Now I'm thinging to change the plugs again, as I might have damaged a plug by operating so long with a broken coil... Assuming that the coil(s) were broken. I feel like I'm chasing my tail and going round in circles...

good luck and let me know how you do.

May I syggest that your problem might be a broken temp sensor, not letting the funs cut in early enough, an also making the ECU thing that the bike is cold and thus overfuelling at low revs causing all the uneven running... Just a thought...

Rider · 11-10-2007, 6:22 AM

replaced plugs.

still no luck.

Problem seems like a a vaccum leak, but I'm prety sure all my vac pipes are ok.

Are there any hidden/secret places where the 2 inner cylinders could be sucking air?

valve stems? etc... please some brainstorming would be very welcome now...

Rider · 11-10-2007, 6:27 AM

replaced plugs.

still no luck.

Problem seems like a a vaccum leak, but I'm prety sure all my vac pipes are ok.

Are there any hidden/secret places where the 2 inner cylinders could be sucking air?

valve stems? etc... please some brainstorming would be very welcome now...

MateFeedKill · 11-11-2007, 12:39 AM

Rider, I think I would have some problem with the display if my temp sensor was bad, It lets me know the bike is hot on the HUD but it wouldn't hurt to look into it with as much $$$$ as I've dropped in to this bike pointlessly so far. Have you had your Valve's shimmed recently? couldn't hurt, I am taking mine to the shop to get shim's done and my injectors cleaned up, guess I'll know a bit more once I get it back. I think the Vac only comes in to the cylinders from one side so if you had a vac problem between the middle cylinders you would have problems with three cylinders not just the center two if I'm not mistaken.

Rider · 11-11-2007, 12:03 PM

No valve adjustment yet and to be honest its very long overdue....

today I found that the rubber necks that connect the throtle bodies to the engine were very loose. I found that while changing the whole throttle bodies assembly for another used one.

Now its all nice and tight and the bike is idleing and working much much better at low revs than it has done for the last year, but its still not 100%.

I suppose I must do the valve adjustment and also try to balance the idle valves on the throtle bodies... Tomorrow I start the hunt for a set of vaccum dials to borrow so as I get the idle valves done first!!!! I just hate the idea of opening the rocer cover up and removing the cams to get to the shims..

Regarding the temp sensor, Its a 3 pin unit, one power and 2 for feedback to the ECU and to the display. It is possible that the display sees different values than the dispalay. But yeah, you are probably right.

finally vac pipes go to all 4 inlets. For the MAP sensor. and the 2 outer cylinders have 2 extra vac pipes for the fuel pressure regulator. All have been changed on mine!!!

MateFeedKill · 11-14-2007, 3:46 AM

Rider,I changed every vacuum line on mine today, Didn't find loose rubber boots on my TBI's but you tightened your's and no real improvement. Are you getting any blink codes? I am definitely not getting an FI light at all, Can the Cam's be out of synch just enough to cause problems without killing the engine all together. I haven't taken the time to pull the valve cover off and see if the timing marks line up like the book says, Index and both cam marks with the outside edge of the cylinder head but I have always assumed that if the cams were wrong the problem would persist through all RPM's. Secondly do you have any unusual noise from the engine beside the nasty lope or does it run like a top outside low RPM's?

Rider · 11-14-2007, 1:11 PM

Cam timming has been playing in my mind for some time too... but I have been hesitant to open the rocer cover too. yet... Maybe this weekend if I find the courage!!!

Engine works great at anything above 3000 rpm.

I do have a knocking sound at idle from the clutch/transmision area which goes away when I press the clutch.
I assume that its caused by the miss at these low revs. For the few moments that engine is not missing and its idleing ok, there is no knocking sound at all. As said earlier, some times the engine will just work perfect even at low revs and then suddenly it will start missing again.

Other than the cams, I have also been thinking about a faulty ECU (for no apparent reason) causing ignition timing to be out of spec and giving the sort of intermitent miss. Like most electrical problems which tend to be intermitent, while mechanical tend to be there all the time if you get my drift....

No FI lights on mine too.

Yesterday, I did the idle valve sync procedure. Something has changed. Engine starts easier and idles better. But still its not OK. Also its worth mentioning that I had really low vac readings in all 4 cylinder. And that I was not able to ballance them out completelly, just get them closer than before. No 4 Cylinder had the most vac of all...

MateFeedKill · 12-12-2007, 9:11 PM

Any more troubleshooting??? Haven't had time to tear into mine recently, been traveling a lot just looking for an update pretty reluctant to take long rides but I have been riding locally. Guess I'm going to take it to a shop after X-mas I'll let you all know what they find. Guess I'll be the guinea pig and drop the $$ to solve this allright ladies and gents no worries, I'll post my solution