[mooli1]

I've got an '07 1000 Blade with 5000kms on it. I took it in for its first post break-in oil change the other day and asked my mechanic to put synthetic oil in it. He subsequently told me that he'd checked with Honda, and that they recommended the use of regular motorcycle oil rather than synthetic, because synthetic oils are so slippery that they don't allow the pistons to set properly. I don't have a clue about any of this stuff, so I'd like to canvas everyone's opinion. With thanks in advance,

mooli1

[CBR929RE]

5000km, you're good to go, the engine should be broken in by now. The newer vettes come with synthetic from the factory. I can't see what would be the difference, they're both internal combustion engines with pistons and piston rings moving up and down cylinders.

[rokitt51]

Originally Posted by CBR929RE

5000km, you're good to go, the engine should be broken in by now. The newer vettes come with synthetic from the factory. I can't see what would be the difference, they're both internal combustion engines with pistons and piston rings moving up and down cylinders.

, after the first 100 miles i change to synthetic, did it on my rc and was over 28000 when it was stolen from me.

[-Z-]

Regular oil is recommended by a lot of manufacturers for when the bike is NEW and hasn't yet undergone break-in. Synthetic oil is considered to be so low-friction and the molecules so small that if used during break-in the engine parts which would normally wear together, won't. At least, this is how I understand it. After the break-in, might as well go for full synthetic, especially if you hope to keep the bike for a long time.

That being said, I think it's a pretty true fact that the vast majority of bikes get totaled in accidents of some form or another long before the engines actually suffer from mechanical faults.

[Si Blade]

synthetic. 5k is more than enough for the engine to be broken in.

[bladeracer]

I've done over 450,000kms on semi-synthetics and have yet to find any fault with them.
Clean oil is what matters. Use whichever you prefer but change it regularly. If it's coming out black it's been in there too long.
I buy bulk filters and twenty litre drums so I never have any excuse to have filthy oil in an engine and I use the same oil in all my cars and bikes.

[pwrpapa]

Originally Posted by -Z-

Regular oil is recommended by a lot of manufacturers for when the bike is NEW and hasn't yet undergone break-in. Synthetic oil is considered to be so low-friction and the molecules so small that if used during break-in the engine parts which would normally wear together, won't. At least, this is how I understand it. After the break-in, might as well go for full synthetic, especially if you hope to keep the bike for a long time.

That being said, I think it's a pretty true fact that the vast majority of bikes get totaled in accidents of some form or another long before the engines actually suffer from mechanical faults.

From my understanding the moleules of regular oil are larger which in turn aids in the break down of the gears meshing together.
On a car you don't have the break down from the gears like a cycle has.
The sny oil might aid in cooling but the regular oil aids in the life of the trans and cam wear. Alot of builders will mix the two oils together to get both properties.

The only thing I can see is that heat(friction) is a power robber so mixing the two oils might be the way to go. I like the Maxima oils with their high zinc and Phosphate content.

[bladeracer]

Why wouldn't they just use semi-synth oils rather than buying both and mixing them?

[pwrpapa]

I don't think you can buy an SL and SJ or SG oils in semi-syn, can you?
I don't know.

[S. A. Kruz]

Originally Posted by mooli1

I've got an '07 1000 Blade with 5000kms on it. I took it in for its first post break-in oil change the other day and asked my mechanic to put synthetic oil in it. He subsequently told me that he'd checked with Honda, and that they recommended the use of regular motorcycle oil rather than synthetic, because synthetic oils are so slippery that they don't allow the pistons to set properly. I don't have a clue about any of this stuff, so I'd like to canvas everyone's opinion. With thanks in advance,

mooli1

Ask the mechanic to see the Service Bulletin or Service Letter from Honda that says synthetic oil cannot be used for breakin. That myth has been floating around for years and I thought it had gone away. Apparently not, please read the link below:

Myths


Kruz

[S. A. Kruz]

Here we go again, another oil thread. I'm hearing a lot of half truths being bandied about as fact on this thread. First thing, oil is oil. Period. Whether it's straight mineral oil (dino oil) or a synthetic it's basically the same stuff, long chain hydrocarbon molecules. Synthetics have uniform molecular size compared to regular dino oils. As a crude analogy, imagine rolling a heavy pallet across your garage floor covered in marbles. A lot easier to roll it than to slide it right? That is, in effect how lubricants work. The oil molecules (marbles) act like little ball bearings and reduce friction. OK, with that in mind, with synthetic oil imagine all the molecules are the same size whereas with a dino oil they are all different diameters. With the dino oil, the larger molecules (marbles) carry a disproportionate amount of the load and rapidly are reduced in size(shear down) while the smaller molecules (marbles) carry very little of the load initially. The larger molecules create more friction and will rapidly shear down (lose viscosity) under load. The synthetic, having molecules of the same size, spreads the load evenly and reduces shearing and friction forces. The synthetic will "stay in grade" longer, meaning retain a greater amount of it's original viscosity in service thus the extended drain interval. Two ways to create a synthetic of uniform molecular size, polymerization and isomerization. Both work it's just that one process (polymerization) requires more energy and the oil will cost more. The original Mobil 1 was made by polymerization. Polymerization is essentially taking tiny ethane gas molecules as building blocks and adding them together to create a larger oil molecule of consistent size. Shell Rotella synthetic is made with a process called slack wax isomerization . In isomerization, you begin with a dino oil with all different size molecules and by using heat and pressure you break down the larger molecules until they are more or less all of equal size. In the process you destroy the parafins(waxy substance) that leads to nasty deposits in your engine. I like what one gentleman said, most bikes are destroyed in accidents long before they suffer mechanical problems related to engine oil selection. Run the proper viscosity recommended by the manufacturer i.e. 10W40 for example and change the oil and filter regularly and you will be fine.

Kruz

[bladeracer]

From that link "You should break in your engine with conventional oil, then switch to a synthetic oil like Mobil 1." the myth is the "_should_ switch to a synthetic" after run-in. I've yet to find any reason why I _should_ run full-synth.

[bladeracer]

Originally Posted by pwrpapa

I don't think you can buy an SL and SJ oils in semi-syn, can you?

Shell SX4 I use is semi-synthetic SJ.

[S. A. Kruz]

Originally Posted by bladeracer

From that link "You should break in your engine with conventional oil, then switch to a synthetic oil like Mobil 1." the myth is the "_should_ switch to a synthetic" after run-in. I've yet to find any reason why I _should_ run full-synth.

It reads "Myth........You should break in your engine with conventional oil, then switch to a syntehtic oil like Mobil 1." Then it goes on to say you can break in on a synthetic and lists the high performance automobile mfgs like Porsche, Mercedes-Benz, Chevrolet Corvette etc. that do just that.

I'm just asking you to have an open mind here for a moment bladeracer. Do you think all those mfgs of high performance vehicles haven't done their homework and have specified synthetic oil for no real reason? With teams of engineers and scientists performing studies and controlled tests on their product doesn't it make sense that they just might know something we don't about lubricating performance under extreme conditions? Or conversely, they might just all have their heads up their bloody arses and just like to piss away their money on expensive gimmicks.


Kruz

[bladeracer]

I have the open mind. That's why I tried it myself but it caused me problems that I never experienced before then or since so I went back to the stuff that does the job _perfectly_ well with zero problems.

[steingar]

i was told (by a mechanic, no less) that the synthetic oils have molybdenum, which can interfere with the action of my 954's clutch. Ay truth?

[bladeracer]

Not really.
Any oil whether synthetic or mineral can have any kind of additives.
As long as the oil you use doesn't have it then it's fine.
If it's a motorcycle-specific oil then it shouldn't have such things in it.

[CBR929RE]

Originally Posted by bladeracer

From that link "You should break in your engine with conventional oil, then switch to a synthetic oil like Mobil 1." the myth is the "_should_ switch to a synthetic" after run-in. I've yet to find any reason why I _should_ run full-synth.

that Mobil link was kind of funny. The synthetic they are talking about are highly refined dino oils. Synthetic is just a marketing word for them. a True synthetic such as Motul 300v was never a dino oil, its ester based. Its used to reduce friction thereby increasing power output.

Originally Posted by steingar

i was told (by a mechanic, no less) that the synthetic oils have molybdenum, which can interfere with the action of my 954's clutch. Ay truth?

don't listen to him. just check the bottle, it will say whether it has moly in it. generally if its labeled as "Energy Conserving" then it has moly in it. don't use that in a motorcycle with a wet clutch.

[08silvercbr]

Originally Posted by bladeracer

I have the open mind. That's why I tried it myself but it caused me problems that I never experienced before then or since so I went back to the stuff that does the job _perfectly_ well with zero problems.

[pwrpapa]

Originally Posted by S. A. Kruz

Here we go again, another oil thread. I'm hearing a lot of half truths being bandied about as fact on this thread. First thing, oil is oil. Period. Whether it's straight mineral oil (dino oil) or a synthetic it's basically the same stuff, long chain hydrocarbon molecules. Synthetics have uniform molecular size compared to regular dino oils. As a crude analogy, imagine rolling a heavy pallet across your garage floor covered in marbles. A lot easier to roll it than to slide it right? That is, in effect how lubricants work. The oil molecules (marbles) act like little ball bearings and reduce friction. OK, with that in mind, with synthetic oil imagine all the molecules are the same size whereas with a dino oil they are all different diameters. With the dino oil, the larger molecules (marbles) carry a disproportionate amount of the load and rapidly are reduced in size(shear down) while the smaller molecules (marbles) carry very little of the load initially. The larger molecules create more friction and will rapidly shear down (lose viscosity) under load. The synthetic, having molecules of the same size, spreads the load evenly and reduces shearing and friction forces. The synthetic will "stay in grade" longer, meaning retain a greater amount of it's original viscosity in service thus the extended drain interval. Two ways to create a synthetic of uniform molecular size, polymerization and isomerization. Both work it's just that one process (polymerization) requires more energy and the oil will cost more. The original Mobil 1 was made by polymerization. Polymerization is essentially taking tiny ethane gas molecules as building blocks and adding them together to create a larger oil molecule of consistent size. Shell Rotella synthetic is made with a process called slack wax isomerization . In isomerization, you begin with a dino oil with all different size molecules and by using heat and pressure you break down the larger molecules until they are more or less all of equal size. In the process you destroy the parafins(waxy substance) that leads to nasty deposits in your engine. I like what one gentleman said, most bikes are destroyed in accidents long before they suffer mechanical problems related to engine oil selection. Run the proper viscosity recommended by the manufacturer i.e. 10W40 for example and change the oil and filter regularly and you will be fine.

Kruz

That was a wealth of knowledge Kruz,
Thanks.....for the good info.
I like these oil threads.

[S. A. Kruz]

The technical advantages of synthetic motor oils include:

• Measurably better low and high temperature viscosity performance[citation needed]
• Better chemical & shear stability
• Decreased evaporative loss[citation needed]
• Resistance to oxidation, thermal breakdown and oil sludge problems
• Extended drain intervals with the environmental benefit of less oil waste.[citation needed]
• Improved fuel economy in certain engine configurations.[citation needed]
• Better lubrication on cold starts

I posted some of the technical advantages of synthetic oils above. One big advantage of synthetics is thermal stability, very low pour point that allows oil to reach bearings during a cold start more quickly and the ability to resist oxidation damage at higher temperatures. Synthetics also tend to reduce crankcase deposits (sludge) and varnish (coking) a big advantage on turbo charged engines. Many that can afford it run synthetics because it's the best and they want the finest protection they can get in their expensive engine. That's probably the biggest reason why many of the high performance automobile manufacturers like Porsche and Aston Martin use it as original factory fill. In the end though it's up to the individual to decide if the added expense is worth the cost. With even the least expensive oil of the proper grade your engine will run for quite awhile.

Kruz

[08silvercbr]

Originally Posted by mooli1

I've got an '07 1000 Blade with 5000kms on it. I took it in for its first post break-in oil change the other day and asked my mechanic to put synthetic oil in it. He subsequently told me that he'd checked with Honda, and that they recommended the use of regular motorcycle oil rather than synthetic, because synthetic oils are so slippery that they don't allow the pistons to set properly. I don't have a clue about any of this stuff, so I'd like to canvas everyone's opinion. With thanks in advance,

mooli1

I completely agree. If I were to put synthedic in I'd wait for several thousand miles to assure total break in first.

[-Z-]

Most motorcycle oils shouldn't have molybdenum in them. On bikes with wet clutches, molybdenum will bond with the friction plates and reduce their ability to catch/grab/hold and transfer power from the engine, thus causing the clutch to slip.

The only time I can think of where you could use oils with molybdenum in them would be in bikes with dry clutches (ducati, anyone?) and bikes like harleys which have separate oil systems for the engine and the primary drive and the transmission. That way you could run an oil with molybdenum in the engine, but not in the other systems.

In car oils, you see it being used far more often. The advantage of oils with molybdenum is that molybdenum (from what I understand) actually bonds with metal components, not only reducing friction but also supposedly helping to make the metal components stronger and more resistant to wear. Kinda like anodizing for aluminum.

[lanbrown]

In cars moly is used because it helps save energy hence why it is an EC oil; EC for Energy Conserving. If it helps the CAFE value then the manufacturer is all over it.

[NorthSide]

Kruz, you are so right mate, can't fault you on anything you said.
It always amazes me how many people think they know better than engine and oil manufacturers who spend millions upon millions on research and development.
The same people talking crap about oil are the same ones telling people to red-line a brand new engine to run it in!!
You know the dance Kruz, respect!