How to stop riding like your grandma

domingo3 · 08-04-2009, 5:07 PM

OK, let me start of saying I don't want to be a crazy or unsafe rider.

I've been riding for about 10 years, and just recently stepped up to a 919. It's fun, but I know it could be more fun if I knew where the limits were. As it is right now, I tend to slow down when I come up to twisty stuff in the road. Here's my mindset:

If I go snowboarding and push the limits, I know I'll fall down sometimes, but I can just get up, dust off, and maybe have a bruise that will heal in a few days. If I start to lean on my bike, what starts going through my mind is that if the tires start to slip, I'm going down, and I'll get some major road rash and trash my bike. Basically falling down is not OK on a bike.

On a snowboard I learn what is within my limits by falling down and backing off from that a little bit. How do I learn when I'm on a bike?

probably a weird question, but thanks for reading

sheepofblue · 08-04-2009, 5:26 PM

Track days and/or a track school. Both will not only let you explore the limits in a MUCH safer and more controlled environment but also improve your riding ability.

Destructo · 08-04-2009, 7:03 PM

I assume you are wearing protective kit? (Gloves, Boots, Leathers, Lid?)

Now I am definitely NOT a riding god by any means, but what I did was to find a local twisty stretch of road (happens to be my way to work) and rode it every day - GRADUALLY increasing the speed around corners. This gets you used to how the bike feels when leant further over each time.

rudely · 08-04-2009, 7:53 PM

If you haven't gotten the book TOTAL CONTROL by Lee Parks check it out, he talks in depth about mindset and committing and fear factor and stuff its a VERY good book and I have learned so much from it.

Twincam · 08-04-2009, 8:19 PM

As what Sheep Of Blue said

BigBassTurd · 08-05-2009, 4:14 PM

If you are trying to find the limits of your bike and yourself you are going to go down for sure. So I agree with Sheep too, a track/school day would be your's and the public's

safest bet.

markus · 08-06-2009, 10:20 AM

I love to ride my 919 fast. I do open it up sometimes on the highway, but only when there is a LONG empty stretch of no cars. I will never pass a row of cars (even on a divided highway) at a rediculous speed (like double the speed limit, that kinda thing). A car waiting to pass is not gonna see you coming up that fast, usually. And any accident at that speed is gonna be bad news.

My favorite road for the 919 is rural, twisty, hilly, narrow roads. You don't have to be going that fast to really enjoy this kind of ride. I rarely go fast anyway, as who knows what is around that next corner.... A kid? A dog or cat? A rock in the road?

I love my 919, and I love speed and acceleration, but I also love life. I plan to be around for a while.

INFAMOUS · 08-12-2009, 4:21 PM

Listen to sheep of blue. He has much wisdom. This being said, I know with good tires my 919 will drag peg long before losing grip. I dont typically like pushing my bike that far its very uneasy of a feeling. I like o get my ass off the side of the seat slightly and lean my body and hang my knee out there as to avoid needing as much lean on the bike. Never done a track day as there really arent any within a reasonable distance to my location but I have been riding for a bunch of years.

Your honest best bet is to find a track day and visit it. At least there you will find your limits or at least find the propper way to "PUSH" your bike through some corners. Also if you happen to find the "LIMIT" of what your bike can do there are EMT's there waiting to scrape you up in a hurry. LOL. BBy far the best way to have some high speed fun in a much more controlled environment.

dicknose · 08-14-2009, 6:12 AM

How about this question...

how many bike riders have fatal accidents on twisty roads on weekends?

Its a scary amount. In some places its possibly 50% of motorcycle deaths.

So - ask those people - how do you learn to corner faster?

Now check out how many die at track days?
Yes some do - but they are rare.

So its up to you.
Want to keep your license, keep your limbs, keep your life.
Take it to the track.

Otherwise you really are risking a lot. And also possibly risking others lives.

Plus you should be able to do courses run at tracks where someone teaches you what to do.
Sure you can then use some of that skill on the road, but you should still keep the 8/10ths and above for the track.

domingo3 · 08-15-2009, 8:50 AM

I think maybe some people are misunderstanding what I'm looking for. I'm not talking about how to develop the confidence to scrape the footpegs. I'm talking about how to not slow down to 25 MPH on a cloverleaf. I think this is equally dangerous behavior, because I get tailgated by impatient drivers, or worse yet, someone in an SUV is going to come flying around and not see me.

WarDawg · 08-15-2009, 10:48 AM

Honestly, riding motorcycles can be like pulling a pin on a grenade and taking it for a ride. I have a friend in ICU right now from a car hitting him week ago Thursday. Very very little room for mistakes is really what I'm getting at. I ride a little hard myself at times. I'm a twisty type rider. If it's a straight line ride , I won't go. I am trying to back it back down .Split the difference I guess. I also had an acquaintance die a few weeks ago from a truck turning out in front of him. Trucks fault...... Both wrecks the riders were in the speed limits. I know the risks... I love to ride... I'm still trying to out run that Grim Reaper..... WarDawg

BigBassTurd · 08-15-2009, 12:55 PM

It's all about set up. Get your braking, downshifting and hip/wieght shift done before you get in to your lean. Swing wide before entering the turn, look through the turn and picture the apex of your line as close to the inside of the turn as possible. Lean it over till your heading to your spotted apex, then when you are at your apex and can see your exit line is good slowly come back on the throttle. I find being comfortable with the speed and the lean has the most to do with it. If your white knuckled and stiff it will never come to you.

DUX · 08-15-2009, 5:41 PM

Quote:

Originally Posted by BigBassTurd

....look through the turn and picture the apex of your line as close to the inside of the turn as possible. Lean it over till your heading to your spotted apex...

Where is your head when your tires are close to the center line on the street?

Sheep hit it dead-on the first time. Go to the track and explore your personal limits. Don't worry, the bike will definitely keep up with you.

I just did my first two track days in June after 15+ yrs of riding the street. I learned more and pushed harder than I had ever imagined. I wouldn't dare ride anywhere near that hard on the street.

FWIW, a track day doesn't mean you have to be the fastest. It's all about fun.

I particularly remember a girl on a standard Moto-Guzzi that I kept passing in the beginner group. I got to talk to her in the pits and she was having a blast. She'd ridden the bike down to southern NJ from NYC, taped up the lights, and was riding home after the day was over......very cool!

WyoJames · 08-15-2009, 5:45 PM

Quote:

Originally Posted by markus

I love to ride my 919 fast. I do open it up sometimes on the highway, but only when there is a LONG empty stretch of no cars. I will never pass a row of cars (even on a divided highway) at a rediculous speed (like double the speed limit, that kinda thing). A car waiting to pass is not gonna see you coming up that fast, usually. And any accident at that speed is gonna be bad news.

My favorite road for the 919 is rural, twisty, hilly, narrow roads. You don't have to be going that fast to really enjoy this kind of ride. I rarely go fast anyway, as who knows what is around that next corner.... A kid? A dog or cat? A rock in the road?

I love my 919, and I love speed and acceleration, but I also love life. I plan to be around for a while.

markus, next time you want to add to a discussion, re-read what you wrote before you submit your reply, and then delete it all

TheHeath · 09-16-2009, 3:47 PM

Well, a track day would be the safest way to explore. Sadly, it's not all that realistic if you live too far from one, or just can't make the time or money to go.

There can be a few things that you should think through before you begin exploring the fun in leaning.

Firstly, why is it you haven't leaned already? When partaking in nearly any fun but potentially dangerous activity, it seems that there are two things that stop people from being fully engaged.
1. A fear they will screw up
2. A fear the equipment they use will screw up

A lot more people would jump from airplanes if they felt absolutely certain the chute would open.
The rest would jump if they felt certain that there was very little they could do to cause their own death/accident.

If the chute can't screw up, and I can't screw up, then it's absolutely 100% safe.

So... which is it for you? Or is it both?
Are you scared the bike will slide out from beneath you? Are you scared you'll panic and freak out? Both can be easily addressed.

Have you had moments that scared you? If so, do you know what it is that startled you?

Some things should scare you. Approaching an intersection, there are a host of things I look for. Sewer caps, drains, gravel, grooves, pot holes and sand are all TERRIBLE to find after you've started your turn. One other thing that doesn't agree with an aggressive lean is street/lane paint. You can drive on any of these things, and you can turn on any of these things, but they must be treated with their due respect, and never treated with the same wreckless abandon as a hot sticky pavement. A lean that is appropriate on a clean roadway will result in a hospital visit if there's a collection of gravel or sand.

One other very important tip that I don't see often enough is, find a gear well before the turn and stay in that gear. Do not change your throttle position through the turn... If you let way off the throttle after you've started the turn, the rear tire will be going slower than the bike, resulting in a minor slide. A hard push on the throttle may break the tire free, resulting in a minor (or larger) slide.

So... how do you learn to lean? Find a location (or several you can ride between) and approach the turn EXACTLY like you are comfortable approaching it. Find your gear and an easy throttle position you're comfortable holding, and enter your turn like you normally do.

Chances are you are ignoring the piece of advice that is given repeatedly... LOOK THROUGH THE TURN. If you are looking 15 feet in front of your bike, you are mentally and physically prepared to lean enough to get 15 feet in front of your current location. While being aware of the traffic around you, work your way up to looking 20-50 yards ahead of you, through the turn.

A 90 degree turn is approached like a 90 degree turn, not a 30 degree turn that lasts 3x's as long. If you approach and stare at the point where you are going to start your 90 degree turn, you are entering a 30 degree turn. If you look at the road 30 yards AFTER your turn, you are more likely to lean and prepare for an actual 90 degree turn.

The act of turning your head and to some extent your body into the direction you want to go, prepares you for that change in direction. If you're looking straight ahead and try to lean, that feels like you're just falling over. If you're looking right, into a right turn, and you lean to the right, that's much much more natural.

Key to all of this is to maintain your own safety and comfort so that you're calm while you do this.

1. Find a location that you can practice turning that is free of debris or road hazards
2. Approach the turn at a speed you're comfortable with
3. Have a gear selected for your turn long before you get to the turn
4. Approach your turn going a speed you're very comfortable with
5. With practice, enter your turn looking further and further ahead of your bike.

When you're selecting a gear for your turn, don't be afraid to make your bike do a little bit of work. Running 6k RPM's won't hurt anything, so you don't need to shift up. Shifting up involves clutch work, and when you let the clutch out from 6K rpms, they'll still be high enough that rear tire is going to want to drag... without more practice (much much more) don't shift in the middle of a turn.

I lean much less until I get to ride for 10 minutes or so, to give the tires a chance to warm up. When it's especially cool out (50 degrees) I don't lean nearly as far. If there's any road construction near your turn, expect to find some sand or gravel, and keep the bike upright. You should be able to get a good idea how good your traction is with (on a straight away) a good hard tap on the rear brake. If your tire skids very easily, you know the same is true for lateral travel.

A friend of mine rides a Sporster and she's been nervous to actually lean her bike at all. She and I will go out on rural roads and we'll play with leaning within our lanes on straight roads. We'll only do it when we're alone, no traffic from either direction. Sounds odd, and it looks pretty goofy, but I'll lean pretty hard just weaving back and forth within my lane on straight roads. It's helped her quite a bit. If you don't lean far enough, there's no recourse. In the beginning, lean harder away from the curb... if you're using a bit of common sense, and only practicing while there's no oncoming traffic, you shouldn't run out of road. If you want to try this, and plan to do this with a buddy, be sure to leave PLENTY of distance between you.

As with any riding, be sure to wear your full gear. If you begin looking through your turns, examining your intersections for hazards, and being conscious of your gear/throttle, within 1500 miles you'll work on those chicken strips. Just be sure that after you successfully complete a few turns with some lean you don't get overconfident and you'll do fine. If you are level headed enough to think about it, this shouldn't be a problem. As you practice, with time, your confidence, and your confidence should climb naturally.

domingo3 · 10-01-2009, 11:35 PM

I've jumped out of planes several times with no issues.

My one concern on the bike is how hard can I turn before the bike will start to slip. If it ever started to slip, I would think that it's inevitable that it's going down. Are there any indicators before it starts slipping?

I'm comfortable looking through the turn. Leaning is probably something I can work on. Really the only issue I have is knowing what the limits are of friction holding my tires to the road and how fast the bike can go and get through the turn.

Like I said before, I'm not trying to ride like a crazy squid - just have a bit more fun and not hold up traffic.

Thanks

PS Track day is not really a possibility for me, though it sounds cool...

Shinji43 · 10-02-2009, 12:54 AM

Well, since a track day isn't really an option for you, it really comes down to getting comfortable and learning to trust your bike. If it's basically just cloverleafs you want to start taking at a regular pace and not have to slow down excessively for them I would have to agree with what Destructo was saying towards the beginning of the thread. Find a decently curvy road that is not usually busy and practice gradually (keyword gradually) leaning over a bit more and going just a bit faster in the turns. Eventually you will learn that long as you aren't trying to enter the on/off ramp at 100mph, the bike will make the turn with much ease...so going 45-50mph on them is no issue. I've had my rear tire come out on me a couple of times, and it doesn't always automatically mean disaster (but as everyone else said, a trackday is the BEST way to learn what a bike can and can't do), you just have to be ready and know what to do if/when it happens (ie hitting a grease spot on the on/off ramp). So basically it comes down to practice and trust, learn what to do to properly handle the bike in a turn and trust in your tires and bike that they can make the turn.

Destructo · 10-02-2009, 7:31 AM

Quote:

Originally Posted by domingo3

I think maybe some people are misunderstanding what I'm looking for. I'm not talking about how to develop the confidence to scrape the footpegs. I'm talking about how to not slow down to 25 MPH on a cloverleaf. I think this is equally dangerous behavior, because I get tailgated by impatient drivers, or worse yet, someone in an SUV is going to come flying around and not see me.

This is something I seem to repeat a lot at the moment, but it seems to me that you might benefit from some advanced training? I have no idea what is available where you live, but over here in the UK there are 2 organisations which offer advanded certification (IAM and ROSPA) and at least 1 training school which offers road-based training (Rapid Training).

I am currently going through the IAM training course, despite riding for 6 years and thinking that I was an OK rider. The focus is on riding safely and 'progressively' and choosing the best road lines for visibility - using the vanishing point to assess how tight the bends are. So far I have found it pretty useful.

I would imagine something like this would help you enjoy your bike so much more, perhaps you could look in to anything similar in your area?

Destructo · 10-02-2009, 7:43 AM

Quote:

Originally Posted by domingo3

I've jumped out of planes several times with no issues.

My one concern on the bike is how hard can I turn before the bike will start to slip. If it ever started to slip, I would think that it's inevitable that it's going down. Are there any indicators before it starts slipping?

I'm comfortable looking through the turn. Leaning is probably something I can work on. Really the only issue I have is knowing what the limits are of friction holding my tires to the road and how fast the bike can go and get through the turn.

I had the same issue after I crashed - I was scared that they tyres would not grip! While most seem to disagree, I did exactly what I said before - I used my twisty route to work and GRADUALLY increased my lean angle through corners. I would see how it felt, and when I finished my journey I would inspect the chicken strips on my rear tyre to see if there was any improvement. While the chicken strips were huge, I knew there was more grip / lean angle available so next time I tried to lean a LITTLE bit further.

Now I am still no knee dragger, but I can get around corners fast enough for the road. I'm still shite in the wet though!

One thing to remember is to keep an eye on the road surface - any gravel, oil, drain covers, overbanding etc etc can affect the grip available. Again this is something advanced training might help with.

And finally - I DO agree that track riding would probably be the best way to improve in this area (for me also) - but it's not something all of us have the opportunity to do unfortunately - I had to make do with what was available at the time.

setanta · 10-02-2009, 8:46 AM

Quote:

Originally Posted by TheHeath

Well, a track day would be the safest way to explore. Sadly, it's not all that realistic if you live too far from one, or just can't make the time or money to go.

There can be a few things that you should think through before you begin exploring the fun in leaning.

Firstly, why is it you haven't leaned already? When partaking in nearly any fun but potentially dangerous activity, it seems that there are two things that stop people from being fully engaged.
1. A fear they will screw up
2. A fear the equipment they use will screw up

A lot more people would jump from airplanes if they felt absolutely certain the chute would open.
The rest would jump if they felt certain that there was very little they could do to cause their own death/accident.

If the chute can't screw up, and I can't screw up, then it's absolutely 100% safe.

So... which is it for you? Or is it both?
Are you scared the bike will slide out from beneath you? Are you scared you'll panic and freak out? Both can be easily addressed.

Have you had moments that scared you? If so, do you know what it is that startled you?

Some things should scare you. Approaching an intersection, there are a host of things I look for. Sewer caps, drains, gravel, grooves, pot holes and sand are all TERRIBLE to find after you've started your turn. One other thing that doesn't agree with an aggressive lean is street/lane paint. You can drive on any of these things, and you can turn on any of these things, but they must be treated with their due respect, and never treated with the same wreckless abandon as a hot sticky pavement. A lean that is appropriate on a clean roadway will result in a hospital visit if there's a collection of gravel or sand.

One other very important tip that I don't see often enough is, find a gear well before the turn and stay in that gear. Do not change your throttle position through the turn... If you let way off the throttle after you've started the turn, the rear tire will be going slower than the bike, resulting in a minor slide. A hard push on the throttle may break the tire free, resulting in a minor (or larger) slide.

So... how do you learn to lean? Find a location (or several you can ride between) and approach the turn EXACTLY like you are comfortable approaching it. Find your gear and an easy throttle position you're comfortable holding, and enter your turn like you normally do.

Chances are you are ignoring the piece of advice that is given repeatedly... LOOK THROUGH THE TURN. If you are looking 15 feet in front of your bike, you are mentally and physically prepared to lean enough to get 15 feet in front of your current location. While being aware of the traffic around you, work your way up to looking 20-50 yards ahead of you, through the turn.

A 90 degree turn is approached like a 90 degree turn, not a 30 degree turn that lasts 3x's as long. If you approach and stare at the point where you are going to start your 90 degree turn, you are entering a 30 degree turn. If you look at the road 30 yards AFTER your turn, you are more likely to lean and prepare for an actual 90 degree turn.

The act of turning your head and to some extent your body into the direction you want to go, prepares you for that change in direction. If you're looking straight ahead and try to lean, that feels like you're just falling over. If you're looking right, into a right turn, and you lean to the right, that's much much more natural.

Key to all of this is to maintain your own safety and comfort so that you're calm while you do this.

1. Find a location that you can practice turning that is free of debris or road hazards
2. Approach the turn at a speed you're comfortable with
3. Have a gear selected for your turn long before you get to the turn
4. Approach your turn going a speed you're very comfortable with
5. With practice, enter your turn looking further and further ahead of your bike.

When you're selecting a gear for your turn, don't be afraid to make your bike do a little bit of work. Running 6k RPM's won't hurt anything, so you don't need to shift up. Shifting up involves clutch work, and when you let the clutch out from 6K rpms, they'll still be high enough that rear tire is going to want to drag... without more practice (much much more) don't shift in the middle of a turn.

I lean much less until I get to ride for 10 minutes or so, to give the tires a chance to warm up. When it's especially cool out (50 degrees) I don't lean nearly as far. If there's any road construction near your turn, expect to find some sand or gravel, and keep the bike upright. You should be able to get a good idea how good your traction is with (on a straight away) a good hard tap on the rear brake. If your tire skids very easily, you know the same is true for lateral travel.

A friend of mine rides a Sporster and she's been nervous to actually lean her bike at all. She and I will go out on rural roads and we'll play with leaning within our lanes on straight roads. We'll only do it when we're alone, no traffic from either direction. Sounds odd, and it looks pretty goofy, but I'll lean pretty hard just weaving back and forth within my lane on straight roads. It's helped her quite a bit. If you don't lean far enough, there's no recourse. In the beginning, lean harder away from the curb... if you're using a bit of common sense, and only practicing while there's no oncoming traffic, you shouldn't run out of road. If you want to try this, and plan to do this with a buddy, be sure to leave PLENTY of distance between you.

As with any riding, be sure to wear your full gear. If you begin looking through your turns, examining your intersections for hazards, and being conscious of your gear/throttle, within 1500 miles you'll work on those chicken strips. Just be sure that after you successfully complete a few turns with some lean you don't get overconfident and you'll do fine. If you are level headed enough to think about it, this shouldn't be a problem. As you practice, with time, your confidence, and your confidence should climb naturally.

setanta · 10-02-2009, 8:51 AM

Quote:

Originally Posted by domingo3

I've jumped out of planes several times with no issues.

My one concern on the bike is how hard can I turn before the bike will start to slip. If it ever started to slip, I would think that it's inevitable that it's going down. Are there any indicators before it starts slipping?

I'm comfortable looking through the turn. Leaning is probably something I can work on. Really the only issue I have is knowing what the limits are of friction holding my tires to the road and how fast the bike can go and get through the turn.

Like I said before, I'm not trying to ride like a crazy squid - just have a bit more fun and not hold up traffic.

Thanks

PS Track day is not really a possibility for me, though it sounds cool...

How far do you lean now? Rem some on here are touching the pegs to the road, to see how far that is, get a couple of mates to lean the bike over until they touch (talking garage/carpark/engine off here), youll be amazed and realise that youve only been leaning a tiny fraction

Quote:

Originally Posted by Destructo

I had the same issue after I crashed - I was scared that they tyres would not grip! While most seem to disagree, I did exactly what I said before - I used my twisty route to work and GRADUALLY increased my lean angle through corners. I would see how it felt, and when I finished my journey I would inspect the chicken strips on my rear tyre to see if there was any improvement. While the chicken strips were huge, I knew there was more grip / lean angle available so next time I tried to lean a LITTLE bit further.

Now I am still no knee dragger, but I can get around corners fast enough for the road. I'm still shite in the wet though!

One thing to remember is to keep an eye on the road surface - any gravel, oil, drain covers, overbanding etc etc can affect the grip available. Again this is something advanced training might help with.

And finally - I DO agree that track riding would probably be the best way to improve in this area (for me also) - but it's not something all of us have the opportunity to do unfortunately - I had to make do with what was available at the time.

Ive got the T shirt too

sheepofblue · 10-02-2009, 9:21 AM

Some good advice above and since you cannot do a track day... Have you done the MSF course? Can you do a track school? There is some good books out there, read 5 of them

Sounds like you are lacking in confidence most and that will come with time. As to the slipping it varies. I slide some at the track and the other day caught gravel in a dark corner with both tires, unsettling but no problem. The hard part is reducing panic instincts that tend to work against you. To be honest you are better off than a lot of people since you are concerned about your hide rather than thinking you are invincible. Wear safety gear and ride within your limits while continuing to learn

Oh and one other thing... Most people focus a LOT on lean angle and it is a major factor but proper lines through a turn can not only impact lean angle but also reaction time and visibility (thus raising confidence). Check out "Sport Riding Techniques" available on Amazon. And read a couple more after that.

Full Chi · 10-02-2009, 9:40 AM

Training.

Badguyblack · 10-02-2009, 11:21 AM

Everything in life has a risk factor. you have to figure how much risk you are willing to take on the bike to learn how to ride it. I fell on a Suzuki 500 and I was started turning like a grandma. Now I got my 929 and i'm cornering like a pro. Take it slow and ride safe.