[MACI4LIFE]

Originally Posted by Kvidalin

b: a little eduucation on lubrication: All lubrications intended for gears,gear boxes, differentials, transmissions etc. have an additiitve to reduce potential of foaming. Auto engine oil does not, good Motorcycle lube does.

it's funny how nearly all of the oil companies including amsoil, quaker state and castrol mention anti foaming and how their oil prevents it.

To me it sounds like all of the automobile oils do it anyways so it's a moot point.

from what little i've read just from a google search. foaming is more of an issue when dealing with turbines and other geared engines. not bikes.

[hobz929]

Originally Posted by jonathan

A must 2 part article and research by Sport Rider 1 2.
You'll see in comperison of actual oils no significent benefit identified as far as scaring the metal is concerned (actualy the car oil did better ).
I use/used car oil on my current and previous Bikes every 3000Km with no clutch slipedge. The ZX done more than 50000Km of sport only riding.

That was probably one of the best links I have seen to support an argument in this never ending controversy . I use/used castrol auto oil in my bike and have never had a problem 18,000 mi and still running strong.

[curt248]

Thanks Jonathan. Those links were good info. I think that may be the most recent study.

The info is pretty hard to digest. It looks like 300V 5-40 gave more HP (3-4 vs valvoline 10-40) but also retained less viscosity than 300v 10-40 at ~50% vs ~75%. It looks like the 300V 10-40 might be a good choice for extended interval changes.

I looked up the cost and 300v goes for about $13/liter(which = about a quart). The mobil 1 full synthetic car oil is $7/ quart. Of course cheap petro is about $1.70/quart.

$12 for honda filter + $52 for 4 liters of 300v = $64 per change
$12 for honda filter + $28 (4 quarts) for mobil 1 synthetic (a top performer)= $40 per change
$12 for honda filter + $6.80 (4 quarts of cheap car oil) = $18.80

When looking at the numbers it seems like the diff between the best synthetic and worst nonsynthetic was within 10% or so for the majority of tests.

If price is an issue, I was thinking since its not hard to change the oil it might be a good to change the conventional oil twice ($6.80 times 2 = 13.60) instead of the synthetic once and just keep the same filter. It would be even better for the filter since the second change would remove all contaminants in the old oil and create less work for that filter.

This is assuming you are thinking of changing oil only once a season. That's what I usually do, but if the cost was super low and I didn't have to go and buy a filter I may be motivated enough to change it twice in my 7000 mile season.

From what I've been reading, it seems like 7000 miles on non synthetic might be pushing it.

It still seems like more changes, even of non synthetic oil, would be better than less changes with the best oil.

The oil really does wear out according to the studies. I never really believed that prior to my research. You rarely (i never have) hear of engines wearing out from infrequent oil changes like you used to. Back in the 70's people would ruin their engines from the wrong oil choice.

[curt248]

Sheep of blue has been of victim of the incredible power of marketing.

Evidence based decisions tend to work out best.

If you look at the evidence, the 300V does indeed seem to be a superior product to cheap oil.

The real question is how much better and is it worth it on a cost benefit analysis. The answer would of course be no (if you look at how cost/benefit analysis's are done).

It looks like increasing the interval would give you the best results. Unless of course, you already change your oil every 1500 miles. If you did, then the 300V is a superior product to start with. In that case, you might as well buy the 300V 5w - 40 which gives 3 to 4 HP more in a 1000cc sport bike, but doesn't last as long.

[MACI4LIFE]

here's my rationality. the most important thing about oil is that it maintains it's properties and stays clean. therefore if we use the above numbers for pricing, then i'd be able to do 3 auto dino oil changes for every 1 300v change. dino oil will have no problem maintaining it's properties and the oil will definately be cleaner before the next change.

therefore, being on the conservative side, i'd rather do 2 oil changes of my castrol 10w40 in the same time that i would do 1 300v change. even though we know that the dino oil will last longer than half the synthetic oil's life.

[slickwill]

Here is the link to my thread where I did a little review of Shell Rotella 5w-40 synthetic. I actually sent in a sample that had 4000 miles on it. It held up better than two of the so called "top" motorcyle oils. The Rotella has a commercial rating so it has been tested for gasoline, diesel, motorcyles, etc. Commercial oil has to undergo much more severe testing to become approved than typical oils. The other thing that is very notable about commercial oils is that whenever a new rating comes out the commercial oils have to meet all requirements for the new rating and all of the old ratings, it is not allowed to compromise. In typical automotive oils the current specification is SL or SM. An automotive oil only has to meet the most recent specifications which aren't necessarily the best specifications. For instance SH rated oils were in the days when there were a lot of turbos being built and sold and so it was formulated more specifically for the high heat and high shear that turbos induce. A current automotive oil doesn't have to meet the SH specifications, it only has to meet current specifications which in todays world means energy conserving. That is just one example though.

More info here: Shell Rotella T Synthetic full analysis

[sheepofblue]

Originally Posted by curt248

Sheep of blue has been of victim of the incredible power of marketing.

Evidence based decisions tend to work out best.

If you look at the evidence, the 300V does indeed seem to be a superior product to cheap oil.

The real question is how much better and is it worth it on a cost benefit analysis. The answer would of course be no (if you look at how cost/benefit analysis's are done).

It looks like increasing the interval would give you the best results. Unless of course, you already change your oil every 1500 miles. If you did, then the 300V is a superior product to start with. In that case, you might as well buy the 300V 5w - 40 which gives 3 to 4 HP more in a 1000cc sport bike, but doesn't last as long.

it is a better oil and I am a victim? I don't run it in my Ascot but do in the RR and RC. Not only are they MUCH higher tuned engines the RC is track only so better is worth every penny. Also I keep most of my vehicles well beyond the average consumer and have seen the benefit to an engine that was properly maintained with 180K on it (I could still read the part number in the heads) While that was a car I also treat my bikes the same way. If you plan on getting rid of your car/bike at 40K you can probably pour whatever in and/or never change your oil which is what many do. If you plan on having the engine proper maintenance pays off. Factor the cash you save into having to replace an engine while I still ride

Also read the description of a type 4 oil in the article "Esters are polar, which means they act like a magnet and actually cling to metals." among others things this translates to excellent protection.

I saw nothing in the article to make me change. Sometimes the dino oils are as good in the lab but not always is a decent summary. Well I don't want sometimes (greedy)

Burn what you want but if I heard you ran auto oil in on a used bike, I was looking at, I walk away.

[bettingpython]

ahemmmm Sheep reading comprehension.

API group IV oils are PAO's

Esters fall into the API group V

Just don't want it turning into another oil argument thread.

[sheepofblue]

Originally Posted by bettingpython

ahemmmm Sheep reading comprehension.

API group IV oils are PAO's

Esters fall into the API group V

Just don't want it turning into another oil argument thread.

technically that is a sheepism the under lying comment is still valid though. Besides for those so inclined search on Motul 300V and you will find dozens of links to oil studies.

[Ol' Gravy Leg]

Originally Posted by sheepofblue

Also read the description of a type 4 oil in the article "Esters are polar, which means they act like a magnet and actually cling to metals." .

also, that quote is completely specious. molecular polarity causes molecules to align themselves in a particular orientation (i.e., positive end to another molecules negative end--think surface tension in water). as a whole, polar molecules are electrically neutral. unless you're talking about the quantum level (such that, electron spin), polarity does not produce magnetism.

carry on.

[curt248]

Sheep of blue quote
"I find it near impossible that a qt of convenience store dino oil comes within a lightyear of Motul 300V on any measure."

This is the statement that had me mention the power of marketing. It's your choice of polarizing words. What is a lightyear's worth of difference? Convenience store as an indication of poor quality? Is a bottle of soda any different in a convenience store vs. a motorcycle shop? Also the absolute of "on any measure" shouldn't be used without numbers to back it up. I'm sure both dino oil and 300V both work similarly when new and if you look at the numbers you will see that 5W-40 300V retained its viscosity less than Valvoline 10-40. I guess that would be "any" measure.

MACIforLife understands my point. Dino oil changed twice in the same time period would be better than 1 change of 300V. If you are changing your 300V every 1500 miles, you are probably in a different tax bracket than me and hence wouldn't consider buying the hypothetical used bike you spoke of.

If they were the same cost, I'd choose the oil that had the best numbers in the study. Those numbers are only surrogate endpoints though. The only clinical endpoint done in the studies was HP and that was only done for 4 oils I believe. The important clinical endpoint should be HP after a few years of use or engines destroyed by poor oil after 50,000 miles or 100K or whatever or significant loss of power on dyno after 50,000 miles with oil A vs. oil B. The numbers may not mean anything in the real world hence they are surrogate endpoints.

We used to use blood pressure as a surrogate endpoint to predict the rate of cardiac disease. It turns out that even though alpha blockers reduce blood pressure they have been shown to increase cardiac disease. Sometimes issues are just more complex than we give them credit for.

[curt248]

BTW: not that I'm proud of it but my lexus has 240,000 miles on it and runs like a dream. I can't tell any difference in the way it runs from the time it had 80,000 miles (when purchased). I change oil maybe every 10 to 15000 miles.

[Jaranden]

Not to be thread-jacking, but Motul has a "twin-specific" oil out, has anyone ever used it? Not to betray my ignorance on the subject, but how could an oil be designed for two cylinders vs. four...I'm fairly certain it's not going to stop and ask anyone which kind of engine it's in...

[MACI4LIFE]

Originally Posted by Jaranden

Not to be thread-jacking, but Motul has a "twin-specific" oil out, has anyone ever used it? Not to betray my ignorance on the subject, but how could an oil be designed for two cylinders vs. four...I'm fairly certain it's not going to stop and ask anyone which kind of engine it's in...

those are the same types of questions i ask regarding oils when they try to make another oil for a specific application. But i keep on coming to the conclusion that it's all a bunch of marketing and repackaging of the same product.

In plain sight, mobil states that more and more vehicles are lasting longer and are higher in mileage therefore they've developed a "new oil" for them that. they say they add a little more detergent in the oil for this application. to me it's a crock, and their marketing machine has come up with the notion that cars on average are lasting longer, therefore repackage a higher mileage oil. All oils have some form of detergent in them. who's to say more detergent will actually work better?? If a tablespoon of soap can wash your hand, then why pour the whole bottle on your hands??

[jonathan]

Originally Posted by Jaranden

Not to be thread-jacking, but Motul has a "twin-specific" oil out, has anyone ever used it? Not to betray my ignorance on the subject, but how could an oil be designed for two cylinders vs. four...I'm fairly certain it's not going to stop and ask anyone which kind of engine it's in...

Originally Posted by MACI4LIFE

those are the same types of questions i ask regarding oils when they try to make another oil for a specific application. But i keep on coming to the conclusion that it's all a bunch of marketing and repackaging of the same product.

In plain sight, mobil states that more and more vehicles are lasting longer and are higher in mileage therefore they've developed a "new oil" for them that. they say they add a little more detergent in the oil for this application. to me it's a crock, and their marketing machine has come up with the notion that cars on average are lasting longer, therefore repackage a higher mileage oil. All oils have some form of detergent in them. who's to say more detergent will actually work better?? If a tablespoon of soap can wash your hand, then why pour the whole bottle on your hands??

In theory:
High performance Twin cylinders engines or even haerlies put high demand on the oil since the torque is generaly much higher than 4 cylinders.
Further more since the power is deliveried in a short durations bursts the cranck needs to wistand a much higher demands - bottom line the shreding forces are much higher thus the oil deteriorates much faster and the oil grade # reduces substantialy.

Actual life:
Change your oil at frequent interval if your do hard riding.

[MACI4LIFE]

Originally Posted by jonathan

In theory:
High performance Twin cylinders engines or even haerlies put high demand on the oil since the torque is generaly much higher than 4 cylinders.
Further more since the power is deliveried in a short durations bursts the cranck needs to wistand a much higher demands - bottom line the shreding forces are much higher thus the oil deteriorates much faster and the oil grade # reduces substantialy.

Actual life:
Change your oil at frequent interval if your do hard riding.

in other words take the regular dino oil do the 3 oil changes for the price of 1 change of motul.

[jonathan]

Originally Posted by MACI4LIFE

in other words take the regular dino oil do the 3 oil changes for the price of 1 change of motul.

After reading and reading and reading and do some and some

Thats what I end up doing as well - .

As stated earlier I replace oil once per 2K miles and use Semi-synthetic Automobile oil SJ grade.