WTF Do I Do Now!?

honorcode3 · 08-17-2009, 10:22 PM

Soooo I took my RC51 over to the Honda dealership because the bike was cutting out on me and then just stopped running altogether. I told them I wanted it mechanically sound and I wanted it to be a daily rider, start up every time, turn it on and ride kind of bike. They understood and took it to be diagnosed and fixed. They said the plugs were fouled and they replaced them and they put in a new battery. I went to pick up the bike and the guy at the service desk had trouble starting the bike and riding it around. The tech was there revving the hell out of the bike (flames shooting out the exhaust). I'm pretty sure cold revving a bike is bad! I then asked if they pulled out the choke and they both looked at me puzzled (they had no idea it had a choke). I pulled out the choke and it was running fine. I asked the tech if the air fuel ratios and everything was fine. He said "I think it is running lean and it looks like the power commander is on the leanest setting." I then asked him to show me and he admitted he didn't know how to operate or use the power commander. I was concerned but I took the bike because it was working and I just thought they were idiots. I get home and let the bike sit for a while, I try to ride later and same problem as before. I'm riding down the street and the bike cuts out on me. It does it a couple more times till it won't even start and I end up having to push it like 2 blocks home. I get the bike back over to Honda and the service manager says he will fix it and get it running, even put it on the dyno to tune it. He says he will fix everything up until having to replace the engine.

I get a phone call today and the service manager says my power commander is bad and that he can take it off and the bike will run, not perfectly, but it will run (has full yoshi pipes and k&n filter). Or I can buy a new Power Commander and he will install and tune it for me for free. Having the Yoshi system and k&n filter is bad for the bike without a tune right, and a pc is needed for a tune right?

WTF do I do? I'm pissed that they would make me waste my time, send me out on a bike that they think may not be operable/SAFE, and give me my bike back without fixing the problem and charging me $500 for it.

DUX · 08-17-2009, 10:28 PM

1) Try reloading the map for the Power Commander.

2) If that doesn't work, disconnect the power commander yourself and see how the bike runs. It may not be "optimal" but you shouldn't hurt anything.

3) Call Power-Commander direct and talk to them.

4) If you need a new Power-Commander, buy one online or from a more reputable place and install it yourself. It takes minutes.

I may be mistaken, but the "choke" on the RC is technically a fast-idle and not a traditional choke.

Red Rider · 08-17-2009, 10:34 PM

Quote:

Originally Posted by DUX

1) Try reloading the map for the Power Commander.

2) If that doesn't work, disconnect the power commander yourself and see how the bike runs. It may not be "optimal" but you shouldn't hurt anything.

3) Call Power-Commander direct and talk to them.

4) If you need a new Power-Commander, buy one online or from a more reputable place and install it yourself. It takes minutes.

I may be mistaken, but the "choke" on the RC is technically a fast-idle and not a traditional choke.

5) Ditch the K&N and put the stock filter back in.

$500?? How can a dealer sleep at night after charging you that...

honorcode3 · 08-17-2009, 10:41 PM

Quote:

Originally Posted by DUX

1) Try reloading the map for the Power Commander.

2) If that doesn't work, disconnect the power commander yourself and see how the bike runs. It may not be "optimal" but you shouldn't hurt anything.

3) Call Power-Commander direct and talk to them.

4) If you need a new Power-Commander, buy one online or from a more reputable place and install it yourself. It takes minutes.

I may be mistaken, but the "choke" on the RC is technically a fast-idle and not a traditional choke.

I agree, I think it is more of a fast idle since the bike is fuel injected; but I was just trying to make the point that they didn't even know it existed.

honorcode3 · 08-17-2009, 10:42 PM

Quote:

Originally Posted by Red Rider

5) Ditch the K&N and put the stock filter back in.

$500?? How can a dealer sleep at night after charging you that...

To be fair, it was $430 but that only included new spark plugs, battery, and rear brake pads. The rest was for a "diagnosis" and labor.

zerogara · 08-18-2009, 9:45 AM

As mentioned several times before in similar posts of problems with PC check and make sure it has a good ground. Follow the DJ instructions on how to reset the TPS, and reload a map that worked well before.

The ECU will adjust rich/lean fueling by temp. and other sensors. So when the bike is cold it is actually choking it (choking air means making it richer).

Reving any bike in neutral is bad, reving it cold is worse, reving a single or twin with no load on it is stupidity. There is very little diagnosis you can do by reving an engine out in neutral. Even when it is down to 10% of output it will rev to the limiter, so what?

Screw dealers and warranties. Buy a bike at the bottom price and never step a foot in those big rip off shops. Start a working relationship with a close by little independent motorcycle service shop.

My 5c (inflation you know)

cbr1kfireblade · 08-18-2009, 11:35 AM

Screw dealers and warranties. Buy a bike at the bottom price and never step a foot in those big rip off shops. Start a working relationship with a close by little independent motorcycle service shop.

My 5c (inflation you know)

thats right.. support the little guys.. THEYRE WAY BETTER IN EVERY WAY..

jrivas · 08-18-2009, 4:45 PM

yo honorcode, this is crazy but i went throught the same thing when I first got my rc!! they could not get it started and they gave it back to me even worse, they charged me an arm and a leg and after they just could not figure it out, they said to take it elsewhere!! bastards!! but hey, everything has a fix (in this case it may be an easy fix). I had a PC on mine also and they told me to take it off, i say HELL NO!! mine ended up two things, at first i figured out my ECU was bad, i got the bike to turn on, then the MF would turn off, well the wire that gave juice to the PC was bad, replaced the wire terminal and BAM......... that was it....... the shop charged me 600 for labor, the (used) ECU was 100.00 and the terminal,i had........just a thought honorcode.. dont loose your patience, stay close the the org and one way or another you will figure it out

slammp · 08-18-2009, 4:56 PM

I had a similar problem two years ago and have been running without a power commander for 2 years now (Mod's include Full Hindle racing system, no flapper valve, soft rev limiter disabled, K&N air filters). What I have experienced in that time is as follows:

Low RPM surges; not worse than when I had a power commander, but absolutely noticeable below 4k.

I actually keep my idle right at 1,500 and I find that it runs very smooth (below that not so much), and I have never had a problem with overheating.

One pipe (the left hand one) does run richer and hotter than the other and the plug associated with that did wear more quickly than the other cylinder. I swapped the two plugs and that issue went away.

Thats it. Nothing else.

I have a 2001. It has 17,000 miles on it. I typically commute most days in the summer and take 300-400 mile day trips on the weekends through the NH/VT/MA twisties. I personally dont think (aside from the two different temp cylinders) that there is an issue running without the Power Commander. My bike runs great does not burn a drop of oil and has power for days. It actually runs incredibly well from 4k to 7k when I am really on it and like I said there have been no mechanical issues.

That's my two cents for what its worth.

honorcode3 · 08-18-2009, 10:22 PM

I called HoA and and talked to someone who then filed my case with a case manager. The case manager called over to the dealership and talked to the guy behind the service desk. He told her the bike runs perfect without the power commander. She called me and said that the guy behind the service desk said the bike runs perfectly without the power commander. I still have the voice mail on my phone where the service manager told me, "It won't be perfectly tuned, but it runs." Seems like I will have to be more enthusiastic about getting them to do the right thing.

So I decided to call another Houston Honda dealership today and get their opinion.

I talked to their service department and the guy told me they could use a sniffer in the exhaust pipe to check the air fuel ratio. He said it will probably be running rich which can cause miss fires and will clog up spark plugs. Does that sound correct?

If indeed taking off the power commander is only a temporary band-aid fix, I wouldn't consider the bike "fixed" by any means, only waiting to break down again. Should I accept the bike back like this after I was promised it would be fixed with no cost to me? (And my definition of fixed is running correctly, not running poorly and waiting to break down on me.)

MACI4LIFE · 08-18-2009, 11:14 PM

i believe the plugs will be white if it's running lean. probably gunked up if too rich?

sheepofblue · 08-19-2009, 9:45 AM

Quote:

Originally Posted by honorcode3

To be fair, it was $430 but that only included new spark plugs, battery, and rear brake pads. The rest was for a "diagnosis" and labor.

Dude! that is a huge difference. You have close to $200 in parts easily. So 4 hours labor at $50 to install all that and diagnose an electrical issue is MORE than fair.

Running without the Powercommander will not hurt the bike it will just not run as good as having one that is properly tuned. Depending on his definition of 'tune it' he may be giving you a steal. If that includes a dyno tune take it and thank him. If it is loading a web map it is not a bad deal and unlike a web deal he will stand behind his work so still go for it.

Oh and I think the choke is just that but only on the back cylinder. It is a quirk of the RC as most don't have anything on fuel injection letting the computer do it

I never use mine as I was told it tends to foul plugs and we are seldom cold enough to have it matter much.

Red Rider · 08-19-2009, 11:08 AM

Before you do anything, you need to completely disconnect the Power Commander from the bike and see if the engine cutting out stops. Don't worry about riding the bike with a full system and no PC.

I would ditch the K&N no matter what though...

honorcode3 · 08-20-2009, 10:25 PM

I'm buying a pclll and having them dyno tune the bike. I'm of course going to ask them for the dyno chart, but is there anything else I should ask for or ask them to do before they start tuning?

cbr1kfireblade · 08-20-2009, 10:37 PM

ask them if they are 100% sure this is the problem and this will fix it

honorcode3 · 08-21-2009, 12:07 AM

Quote:

Originally Posted by cbr1kfireblade

ask them if they are 100% sure this is the problem and this will fix it

Already did. It currently had a pcll and the service manager said that the bike runs fine when they take it off. I asked if he was %100 sure the pclll will fix it and he said no.

I guess we will see what happens. Should I make sure I'm there for the tuning of the bike? Someone told me that they could just take any ones dyno chart and give it to me saying it's mine. How many pulls are typical of a good tune?

HRC RC51 · 08-21-2009, 1:10 AM

Quote:

Originally Posted by sheepofblue

Dude! that is a huge difference. You have close to $200 in parts easily. So 4 hours labor at $50 to install all that and diagnose an electrical issue is MORE than fair.

Agreed..if it fixed the problem. If you shelled out that much money to find your bike running the same then that isnt fair. It sounds like they were "throwing parts" at the bike hoping for the best. Those plugs and battery may have needed replacing, but it sounds like the expectation when selling that job is that it will fix the problem. It wasnt sold to the owner as well we dont know, and will need to get new plugs and battery in to take those factors out of the poor running problem. It was nice they upsold rear bake pads to have a "safe running/riding" bike but didnt care that bike would cut out while riding. Sound likes like dealer I used to work at.

If the shop had done the diag correct and not tried to make a easy band-aid fix, they wouldnt be offering free dyno time. I think the owner would have been happy to pay x amount of dollars having things tested properly to make a good diag and to then make repairs.

You might want to find a shop that does performance work, they might not know Honda inside and out, but if they are good, they know engines and electronics and should find the problem.
anyway, good luck with the repairs and hope you get it on the road without much cost or hassle.

honorcode3 · 08-30-2009, 9:55 PM

I called HoH and they said the bike would be dyno'd and done by Friday. I drove in from Austin and the bike wasn't done. Service manager said tech didn't show up and didn't know if he would. Tech shows up Saturday and dynos bike. They said it runs well so I asked if I could have the dyno chart, something I called ahead before they even started and asked them to print out. The guy fumbled around for a few minutes and pulled out a chart for dyno run number 3. Apparently the tech/tuner only printed out dyno run #3 out of supposedly 10 runs. What makes it worse is the x-axis of the graph was in mph instead of rpm's. The guy behind the counter was telling me how there was a hole in the intake (some whole the size of a quarter on the top of the bike by the instrument panel that usually has a plug in it). He told me I could duct tape it up and probably get another hp and a couple more torques. Why couldn't they have duct taped it when they tuned it if it's that easy (it is literally in plain site and takes no effort to cover up)? WTF is wrong with these people? I also had the pc3 shipped to them and I think it was supposed to come with a usb cord that they never gave me. I hope they don't say they threw it out or lost it when I call on Monday.

cbr1kfireblade · 08-30-2009, 10:56 PM

zerogara · 08-30-2009, 11:07 PM

Are you talking about the flapper valve hole in the duct right in front of the steering stem? That is bigger than a quarter, more like a quarter pounder. If that is what you are talking about then not only you have no ram-air effect you are possibly choking the engine as when you run there is probably less pressure behind the screen.

It seems as these people don;t know what they are doing but for some odd reason you are willing to expect some value out of Ho-dealerships.
Either total punks or ignorant people end up working on those outfits as really good technicians either open up their own shop or work for a specialty race/custom shop that pays a decent salary.
Dyno charts may be important to someone who knows how to translate results into adjustments. Otherwise they are just unnecessary wear on the bike.

honorcode3 · 08-31-2009, 12:10 AM

Yeah, well at any rate... I duct taped up the flapper valve hole and just took it out for a ride and it's cutting out on me again. The back tire locked up and started going sideways... that was scary. At the end of the 25 minute ride it would idle only with the choke pulled all the way out, but when I pushed it in it would cut out on me. At the Honda dealership they said they turned the idle as low as it could go, I'm guessing this may be the problem?

cbr1kfireblade · 08-31-2009, 12:15 AM

d@mn bro i dont know if i would throw a HUGE fit in front of everyone or cut my losses and go somewhere else

slammp · 08-31-2009, 9:10 AM

Your idle should be +-1300 per spec. I run 1400+ (closer to 1500) because the bike likes it better and runs smoother. I don';t about the rear wheel locking up, never heard that one before and like I said in my last post I pulled my PC and kept it off two years ago and have had no real issues. Iv'e got just over 17k on the bike now and just changed the plugs last week. They actually looked fine but the tips were burned down so it was time.

zerogara · 08-31-2009, 12:11 PM

If the bie is running rich down low when you shut the throttle off it would want to go below idle for a sec. While on neutral or between shifts this may ill the engine and hence lock up the rear. If you can edit your map lower the numbers a little on low rpm below 3k and see if it is better.

honorcode3 · 09-08-2009, 4:09 PM

I cut my losses and took the bike to a different shop. Honda of Houston doesn't know what they are doing. Did anyone know that Honda of America does not stand behind any of their dealerships? A case manager supervisor said legislation was passed so they can not interfere with the dealerships actions. He then told me there was nothing Honda could do and they don't stand behind their dealerships. Is it just me or does that sound kind of sh*tty and make you question why you would ever take your vehicle there in the first place?

zerogara · 09-08-2009, 4:56 PM

HoA charges amazing amounts of money to allow any shop to become their dealership. Moe than twice what other brands charge, yet they can push and twist their arm till they choke and drop them for any one of their thousand fine print conditions that weren't met. Especially at this market condition the only way for them to stay open is for HoA to oversee many of their rules to keep them running. To me that is a condition of high leverage. So HoA is full of crap.
Have you noticed those huge Blue Honda signs on car dealerships, and the Huge red ones on bike dealerships, despite of what else they may sell? Guess who is mandated to pay for them and keep replacing them so they are always new looking and bright? That is how much control they have on them. Guess how all those parts departments are full of OEM stock parts? They can;t sell Honda without investing big money, only to turn around and have brand new 2-3 year old bikes sitting in their showrooms for ever.

What HoA said to you can be translated that they don;t care what you think and they are not going to bother with you, because you are a minority squeeky wheel for them. All they care is pushing product in large quanitities. Your product was already pushed and done with.
Yes, they make good bikes, but they are nasty to deal with, not that others are any better but the good ones all went bankrupt.

longwaytofall · 09-08-2009, 6:25 PM

It sounds like your bike is loading up (running rich). Pull the plugs again, since they are new you know that if they are fouled up at all, it is from riding it recently. If they are indeed fouled, you need to start looking for the problem. I would have them check the fuel pressure, a busted regulator will make it run like **** real quick. Both plugs would show fouling if this is the case. If it is just one plug, then consider the injectors, I would swap the injectors front and rear (if they are interchangeable, I do not know) and if the problem swaps cylinders, then there is your issue. It could also be the ignition, so if it is just one cylinder then try swapping your coils and reading the plugs again. A digital laser thermometer on the exhaust headers can also be super handy at diagnosing a bad cylinder.
When they dynoed the bike, they should have discovered what the issue was, does the dyno sheet have an air fuel ratio on it?

zerogara · 09-09-2009, 3:51 AM

One idea for pressuring HoA if you have located an email to customer service, is to draft a note of complaint, copy it here and the email, and let most of us send them a copy in support to you. HoA when they sell new bikes they mandate you do the service under warranty in their approved shops, so they have to stand behind them or take that off their warranty requirements.
Most of us here do our own work but we all know that quality of service for others has gone down hill in dealerships.
Whatever it is if they knew what they were doing they should have fixed it by now.
Meanwhile try on you own what has been recommended here to check it is all good advise. If it is a bad coil search the threads to find the CBR1000 coil replacements that also save weight. If it is the ECU it is not the first or the last that went bad.

cbr1kfireblade · 09-09-2009, 12:20 PM

Quote:

One idea for pressuring HoA if you have located an email to customer service, is to draft a note of complaint, copy it here and the email, and let most of us send them a copy in support to you. HoA when they sell new bikes they mandate you do the service under warranty in their approved shops, so they have to stand behind them or take that off their warranty requirements.
Most of us here do our own work but we all know that quality of service for others has gone down hill in dealerships.
Whatever it is if they knew what they were doing they should have fixed it by now.

longwaytofall · 09-09-2009, 4:23 PM

Hey I was thinking about your bike as I was going to sleep last night, and thought that the fact it runs good cold, and lousy hot, really sounds like a bad coil. Get a multimeter and test those suckas out!