Tips for a new rider

Shinobi250 · 07-16-2009, 11:46 PM

Just wondering if anyone has any tips regarding slow U-turns. I know the road test requires figure 8s. Anyone know the space I should be able to do this within and input on the u-turns?

setanta · 07-17-2009, 6:10 AM

My last instructer gave me good advice which was that as you start to move off lock your head in full turn and keep it there. Use your back break to control the bike and keep the revs up.
Best i can do for you, more better advice will be along shortly

dicknose · 07-17-2009, 6:26 AM

Was just teaching a new rider to u-turns this week.

She started taking about 30 feet - now down to about 6!

The best tip I can give is to learn to balance with the throttle.
By that I mean - if the bike tips in and feels like its going to fall to the inside, dont put a foot down, but *gently* give it a bit more throttle and that will pull the bike back up.
Of cause this means you need to have the bike in gear - people trying slow turns with the clutch in are going to find them hard to control.

At first just try some slow casual turns and just give a little bit of throttle to exit the turn. This will get you used to throttling to help lift/balance the bike. And of cause you must resist the opposite - if you think you are getting it wrong and its going to fall the worst thing to do is to brake or throttle off to stop!
Once you got some confidence you can work on tighter turns and leaning the bike a bit. And if you think you have overdone it, small throttle and get it back a bit.
The big fear of slow u-turns is dropping the bike to the inside. If you can get the confidence on how to recover that smoothly then you will greatly improve your slow turns.

My other tip is about leaning.
Most of the time we lean with the bike - being at about the same angle as the bike. Racers like to lean more than the bike - get the centre of gravity further inside.
But the amount the bike can lean and support depends on the speed - the slower the speed, the less you can lean (at most roads speeds the bike can support a very big lean!) So it would seem that a bit faster (and we are talking slow rather than very slow) would be better. But you can still turn more the slower you go.
So the secret is to go slow and be able to lean the bike a lot. To do this you need to lean the bike over, but keep yourself upright. Its like you are leaning the bike under you. Or doing a Crusty Demons trick jump!
This is quite easy to do at walking pace and will give you a better turn than just putting it on full lock and sitting normally on the bike.
Very handy for sports bikes and things that dont have a lot of lock.
And it does look and feel cool having a knee cocked out on the inside of the turn.

Good luck!
Getting slow speed confidence is probably the best skill you can have on a bike.
You might never go 200mph or get a knee down at 100mph - but you will be going 5mph everytime you take off or stop!

spina220 · 07-17-2009, 7:30 AM

Your eyes should always be looking at where you have to go and not where you are. Where you look is where you will end up.

setanta · 07-17-2009, 7:35 AM

Quote:

Originally Posted by spina220

Your eyes should always be looking at where you have to go and not where you are. Where you look is where you will end up.

So very true but havnt a clue how it works

dicknose · 07-17-2009, 8:23 AM

The "you go where you look" is because part of our steering is a feedback loop based on where we look.

If you want to avoid an obstacle - say a pothole - its best to look at the road where you want to be, not the pothole.
When you look at the pothole you might miss it - but you effectively are aiming to just miss it!
Instead of the normal feedback - eyes look, measure distance to where you want to be - adjust steering
you have turned it into "measure distance to where you DONT want to be" and then adjust.
it seems a small difference but it means you attempt to miss and as long as its miss by some small amount the steering feedback loop will be happy.

This all goes terribly wrong when you dont go exactly as you plan - either due to speed or poor surface and you run wide. Or maybe you dont allow for the rear tracking differenly (more important in a car).
Then you can actually hit what you were trying to miss! Mostly because you aimed to miss by a small amount and then had a small mistake on where you went.

So its much better to aim where you really want to be - usually a good distance away from any hazard.

But while on this "look where you want to go" - it is possible in doing a u-turn to look too far ahead. if you are looking 90 degrees at where you want to (eventually) be, you arent looking at where you will soon be!
Sure - have a look to see if its clear but you probably want to be looking more like 45 degrees, so at the start of the turn you are looking more at the apex, at the apex looking at the exit. Your peripheral vision will look a bit further around.

setanta · 07-17-2009, 8:52 AM

Oh Im with you on all the above but dont try it in your car. What I was trying to ask is physiologically why??

To clear the point up I mean Im typing to you now and I know how to send the email and receive your responce. But there is no way in hell I can take you from touch of a letter on my keyboard to this flying through the inernet yet I know it works and I utilise it but there is no way I could create the tools to do it myself.

So when I was questioning the "look go there" effect I was looking for a much more detailed answer (Im not being rude about your responce).
How come neuroligically it is possible to change the direction of a mechanical devise with your eyes. Were not talking black hawk directional guns devise

.

My thoughts
Eyes looking left, changing balance of the body, body follows head

Has to be balance related because it wont work with in the car

SunRider · 07-17-2009, 12:06 PM

Ive recently passed by test having completed the CBT followed by a 4day DAS course. My instructor told me that not just new bikers but also experienced bikers fail to master 'Low speed Control Manouvers'

The U Turn was one!! this is how he told me to complete a U Turn.

Most common error is foot down when competing turn. This is becuase 1) your not looking where you are going, but normally at your front wheel or just in front of it. 2) Not enough engine Revs to keep the Bike Centre of Gravity balanced.

SO!! This is it, first, ensure enough engine revs to keep bike upright, when you move off by slowly releasing clutch, slightly, apply the back brake to stop the bike from moving forward quickly. Continue in a straight line until under control at slow speed. Its a balance of Rear Brake, Revs and Clutch control. When you turn for the U turn, its important that you do not let the engine revs die away, this causes foot down, dont be afriad of too many revs or the noise. it is IMPORTANT in the turn that you look at where you are going and NOT in front of the bike, its where you wish to end up that matters!!

Firstly I would just mess about with revs, RearBrake and clutch in an open space until you can feel the bike is under control. Its the revs/ engine movement that holds the bike up for you.

When I first started, I dropped the bike, then feet down all the time. After two days practice, I could complete perfect U turns every time. Dont be frightened to rev the bike as required.

Anyway, hope this is helpful

Enjoy

spina220 · 07-17-2009, 5:44 PM

Quote:

Originally Posted by SunRider

Ive recently passed by test having completed the CBT followed by a 4day DAS course. My instructor told me that not just new bikers but also experienced bikers fail to master 'Low speed Control Manouvers'

The U Turn was one!! this is how he told me to complete a U Turn.

Most common error is foot down when competing turn. This is becuase 1) your not looking where you are going, but normally at your front wheel or just in front of it. 2) Not enough engine Revs to keep the Bike Centre of Gravity balanced.

SO!! This is it, first, ensure enough engine revs to keep bike upright, when you move off by slowly releasing clutch, slightly, apply the back brake to stop the bike from moving forward quickly. Continue in a straight line until under control at slow speed. Its a balance of Rear Brake, Revs and Clutch control. When you turn for the U turn, its important that you do not let the engine revs die away, this causes foot down, dont be afriad of too many revs or the noise. it is IMPORTANT in the turn that you look at where you are going and NOT in front of the bike, its where you wish to end up that matters!!

Firstly I would just mess about with revs, RearBrake and clutch in an open space until you can feel the bike is under control. Its the revs/ engine movement that holds the bike up for you.

When I first started, I dropped the bike, then feet down all the time. After two days practice, I could complete perfect U turns every time. Dont be frightened to rev the bike as required.

Anyway, hope this is helpful

Enjoy

What he said.

vville123 · 07-17-2009, 6:12 PM

Take the MSF course it's worth it, you will do lots of this on a small bike which makes learning easier.

And if you drop a bike at least its not yours.

dicknose · 07-18-2009, 5:34 AM

Quote:

Originally Posted by setanta

What I was trying to ask is physiologically why??

So when I was questioning the "look go there" effect I was looking for a much more detailed answer (Im not being rude about your responce).
How come neuroligically it is possible to change the direction of a mechanical devise with your eyes. Were not talking black hawk directional guns devise

.

Did you read my post?

Your eyes dont steer!
You can go a different direction to where you look.
But its not easy for most people.

Because most of the time we attempt to go where we look. And do this by a feedback loop (an engineering term) - in that we learn to steer by looking at where we want to go and learning to judge if we are going there by rate of turn and seeing the distance from us to the desired spot decrease. We then adjust steering (and possibly speed) to try and get to the desired place (or line). The input into this control system is our eyes and they are trained to measure the distance between where we are going and where we are looking. Normally you want this to be the same!

This isnt trivial and it is something you have to learn. But its not that hard - lets face it, just about anyone can steer a vehicle (car, bike etc) with a bit of practice. Its something our brains learn easily and do without much thought from us.

So it then becomes pretty much subconscious that your steering is done by adjusting steering based on the distance from where you are (or your line is) to where you want to be.

Now its hard to adjust this and change it from "go where I look" to "go just to the left/right of where I look"

The "you go where you look" is not some magic.
Its because that is what you do 99% of the time, its not surprising that in the 1% when you dont want to do it that its hard not to.

Slug · 07-20-2009, 2:56 PM

When I saw the thread title my first thought was, "don't burp with your visor down".

For those really tight u's, my original instructor pretty much just said, "Do your best to try to look behind you". Essentially, turning and look back over your shoulder, much like you would when changing lanes at speed.

-Slug

Shinobi250 · 07-20-2009, 7:08 PM

Thanks for the responses. I am already signed up for an MSF course, but due to availability, it's not for another few weeks. In the meantime, I ride anyway. So, I wanted to know so I can work on being a better rider now.

vbaker4 · 09-02-2009, 9:11 AM

I was always taught to keep your head where you want to go, and also use the the friction zone on u-turns and tight corners on a course. By that all I mean is keep your revs up and pull in the clutch slighty and when it starts feeling unstable, then let the clutch out slowly and give it some gas to regain a good balance.

DeadFred · 09-02-2009, 5:44 PM

they teach the "look where you want to go" in Defensive Driving, Drivers Ed, and the MSF course I took. I think it has to do with the way we are wired internally...

I remember something about some studies done on people and years of research... yadda yadda.... I think of it as if I look where I want to go, I am not just looking where I am turning, but looking THROUGH the turn. So I am planning ahead for my turn instead of getting surprised by a nasty obstacle.