[bettingpython]

OK if I understand peak oil it is when production no longer increases right? But the cause of oil production does not need to be tied to availability of oil it is already here and being artificially manipulated by liberal restrictions on drilling.

Second oil prices. The daily cost of oil per barrel is not what is driving the price at the pumps in the U.S. Immediate and short term oil purchases paying that price are petro chemocal companies that make plastics synthetis etc...
the price per barrel of oil that is going into a refinery was set in some cases 20 to 30 years ago. Long term oil is traded as a commidity and and thus bought for usage well in the future. Rather our current gas prices in the U.S. are being inflated by decreased refining capacity, we haven't been allowed to build a new refinery in 20 years, the oil and gas industry has made marked improvements in effecient use of materials.

Years ago the catalytic cracking of crude into various fuels produced 20 gallons of waste sludge out of every 55 gallons processed, today we are left with only 1 gallon of waste per 55 gallons used. In the past 20 years refiners have used this increase in efficieny to keep costs down, now even at that level of effeciency demand is outstripping refining capacity.

Now refineries are kinda touchy beasts though because they have to run or the equipment degrades faster than if it was in full usage, an excess of refining capacity is not a good thing but we are at a point now where the capacity needs to be incresed so that when a producer takes a refinery off line for maintenace that we don't see a spike in gas prices.

Sorry but restrictions on U.S. drilling and refining are the cause of current prices. Future gas prices 20 years forward are being affected by todays increased crude oil costs.

[Bigdaddy75]

Bring on internal combustion engines driven by hydrogen.. I hope the oil wake up call has had some impact and we can move past it.

[bettingpython]

Originally Posted by Bigdaddy75

Bring on internal combustion engines driven by hydrogen.. I hope the oil wake up call has had some impact and we can move past it.

OK I like the idea of hydrogen but several other factors come into play, the electrical energy cost of hydrogen seperation. Unless nuclear energy becomes widespread the cost of seperating hydrogen becomes prohibitive.

ok here is a great article on hydrogen fuel, knew i had read all this somewhere.
Hydrogen ( 1-Jun-2007)

We may eventually see hydrogen powered automobiles but for motorbikes I don't think it will ever happen.

Of course this just gives certain groups one more tool for the legislative ban on sportbikes and eventually all motorcycles.

[.OrgOwner]

Originally Posted by bettingpython

Of course this just gives certain groups one more tool for the legislative ban on sportbikes and eventually all motorcycles.

I don't think we will see a ban on them, I think we will see more and more people turning to cheap forms of transport as energy prices continue to rise.

[Bigdaddy75]

Originally Posted by bettingpython

OK I like the idea of hydrogen but several other factors come into play, the electrical energy cost of hydrogen seperation. Unless nuclear energy becomes widespread the cost of seperating hydrogen becomes prohibitive.

It may come to a point where we no longer have a choice, and soon. As China continues to grow they will be chasing more and more oil to meet demand.

[bettingpython]

The problem is this there are 2 primary methods of hydrogen production both require more energy from fossil fuels to be used to create the hydrogen then the hydrogen which is produced.

first is steam gassification of natural gas, unless you need hydrogen specifically you are better off burning natural gas as a fuel.

second is electrolytic seperation of water, expensive when the energy plants used are fired from coal or NG.

Unless we are willing to accept nuclear power plants there is no inexpensive form of hydrogen production.

Problem number 2 usage as a vehicle fuel, Hydrogen is far more energetic than gasoline but it's density is so low in comparison that even in it's liquid form at -400 some odd degrees farenheit you would get 1/2 the distance out of a tank of it. In high pressure gaseous form about 1/10th the milage. As a motorcycle fuel it will never work. As an auto fuel it would be posiible but very heavy to do so.

Hydrogen fuel cell technology is coming along but again it is a very heavy system because of the components required and will not be practical as a bike power source in the foreseeable future.