[CBRVFR]

What an interesting response by Spanish voters to the horrific bombing that took place. They seem to have expressed that they deserved to get hit for participating in the Iraq war, or the war on terrorism generally. What greater impact could the bombers have wanted than to get rid of a hostile administration?

Spain Vows to Pull Soldiers Out of Iraq


Mar 15, 10:13 AM (ET)

By ED McCULLOUGH

(AP)

MADRID, Spain (AP) - The leader of Spain's victorious Socialists said Monday he will withdraw his nation's support for the U.S.-led occupation of Iraq, restating a campaign promise a day after his party won elections overshadowed by terrorist bombings.

Jose Luis Rodriguez Zapatero, calling the war that ousted Saddam Hussein an "error," said he would recall Spanish troops from Iraq by June 30 unless the United Nations assumes control of multinational military operations there.

In a surprise defeat, Prime Minister Jose Maria Aznar's conservatives on Sunday became the first government that backed Washington in Iraq to be voted from office. The election came amid charges that Aznar made Spain a target for terrorists by supporting the war, and that his government concealed possible connections between the attack and Islamic terrorists for political gain.

Thursday's train bombings - the worst terrorist attacks in Spain's history - killed 200 people and wounded some 1,500.

"The military intervention was a political error for the international order, for the search for cooperation, for the defense of the United States," Zapatero said, adding that Spain would maintain "cordial" relations with Washington.

"It divided more than it united, there were no reasons for it, time has shown that the arguments for it lacked credibility and the occupation has been managed badly."

He refused Monday to set a date for a possible withdrawal of Spain's 1,300 troops in Iraq, saying only that one would be set after he takes over as prime minister some weeks from now.

Just to let you know the degree to which cynicism has rotted my soul, my first reaction was that the socialists themselves had the greatest motivation to set off those bombs.

[luvtolean]

Either way it worked. It broke the resolution of a country...so sad.

[johnnycrash]

Originally Posted by luvtolean

Either way it worked. It broke the resolution of a country...so sad.

Exactly! It proved that terrorism works perfectly against Spain. Spaniards have just shown the world that they are all pu$$ies.

[SuperDave]

I'm somewhat divided on my thoughts of this withdraw. If the majority of US citizens are now questioning the "immediate urgency" of our attack on Iraq, in other words betrayed by false/fabricated information, you have to wonder about allies that supported the effort only to question the authenticity. Don't start flaming about all the bad things Saddam did and freedom of the Iraqi people, I'm just talking about the request we made to other nations and how the justification changed as soon as the war started (read - no more disarming immediate nuclear/chemical/biological threats, instead, save the Iraqi people). Whether Spain pulls out or not I have to believe they will search the world over to find who's ever responsible. Calling them pu$$ies? I don't know about that. You had to wonder how other Nations (that supported the US) would feel now that the original justification and proof kind of disappeared/mistaken intelligence. I don't know, difficult situation for Spain.

[luvtolean]

If an organization attacks your country, no matter the reason, they are now your enemy.

I don't care the reason the war was sold, that is history. Currently, you just had an organization kill 190 of your people on your soil. That is not the time to get apathetic.

[johnnycrash]

Originally Posted by SuperDave

I'm somewhat divided on my thoughts of this withdraw. If the majority of US citizens are now questioning the "immediate urgency" of our attack on Iraq, in other words betrayed by false/fabricated information, you have to wonder about allies that supported the effort only to question the authenticity. Don't start flaming about all the bad things Saddam did and freedom of the Iraqi people, I'm just talking about the request we made to other nations and how the justification changed as soon as the war started (read - no more disarming immediate nuclear/chemical/biological threats, instead, save the Iraqi people). Whether Spain pulls out or not I have to believe they will search the world over to find who's ever responsible. Calling them pu$$ies? I don't know about that. You had to wonder how other Nations (that supported the US) would feel now that the original justification and proof kind of disappeared/mistaken intelligence. I don't know, difficult situation for Spain.

I understand where you are coming from - and I agree that the majority of citizens in both Spain and the US are/were against the war and that the war was sold under false pretences. I personally was against the war.

BUT ... I am saying that the course of their countries politics seems to have been changed by the terrorists killing of 200 people. The terrorists main goal was acheived.

[SuperDave]

Quoted: Whether Spain pulls out or not I have to believe they will search the world over to find who's ever responsible.

Do you really think Spain is going to just lay down now? Hide? I don't think so. I believe they will be as eager and passionate as we would be to find those responsible or even who claimed to be responsible. Pulling out of Iraq is a different issue (I think). The people of Spain did not agree with their leader's decision just as other nations didn't agree with supporting the war.
Just very confusing. What really do the terrosist have to gain by getting Spain to withdraw from Iraq? Or punish them for supporting US policies. Spain?

That's it for me on this thread, I need to research this further.

[luvtolean]

Either way, terrorists now get to tell Spain where they should or shouldn't deploy their military.

[aBnorMal]

Originally Posted by SuperDave

What really do the terrosist have to gain by getting Spain to withdraw from Iraq? Or punish them for supporting US policies. Spain?

They get to set a precedent, that's what they gain.

[Baketech]

It shouldn't be too surprising....there is a fairly vocal contingent here in the US that would have us pull the same ostrich maneuver....

With jackheads like John Kerry & Ted Kennedy serving as the Fifth Column for Al Qaeda....what do you expect?

[Holeshot]

Originally Posted by SuperDave

Don't start flaming about all the bad things Saddam did and freedom of the Iraqi people, I'm just talking about the request we made to other nations and how the justification changed as soon as the war started (read - no more disarming immediate nuclear/chemical/biological threats, instead, save the Iraqi people).

I believe you are complete wrong in that assumption. What changed was how our media protrayed it. Having a cousin serving there.. he made it very clear to me that thier mission has not changed and WMD's (which Sadam admitted to having prior to the war, that is all well documented history) were not he sole reason for our punishement of that regime.

What has happened in Spain is horrid. First the outright murder of innocents, and now Spain cowing to these same people? I hope that is not true.. it's a sad day for the entire world if that's in fact the case...

[SuperDave]

Originally Posted by Holeshot

I believe you are complete wrong in that assumption. What changed was how our media protrayed it. Having a cousin serving there.. he made it very clear to me that thier mission has not changed and WMD's (which Sadam admitted to having prior to the war, that is all well documented history) were not he sole reason for our punishement of that regime.

What has happened in Spain is horrid. First the outright murder of innocents, and now Spain cowing to these same people? I hope that is not true.. it's a sad day for the entire world if that's in fact the case...

Did we listen to the same President Bush speech and the United Nations Powell speech? I'm not making assumptions, I know what was presented to me (and the world). I don't know what was told to our troops, but I think you need to read the transcripts from those speeches made to the World. Ref- mushroom clouds/nuclear programs, immediate danger to the world, etc,etc. Hell, even I was ready to strap on a M16 and head over there. I'll stop, long overdebated topic already. My point was I believe Spain will hunt down and massacre those responsible and not crawl away and hide regardless of their Iraq position - that's all.

[Cowboy]

Restrictions were placed on Iraq as part of their surrender after we kicked their ass for invading Kuwait. Sadam broke most of those agreements. The war in Iraq is justified whether or not WMD are found.
If the new leader of Spain wanted to pull his troops out of Iraq before his country was bombed that would be acceptable. But pulling them out now would be a big mistake. Like everyone else has said, it only tells the terrorists that a few bombs in Spain will get you what you want. They should at least stand strong until everthing blows over and then quietly pull out, that way they can save some face.

[aBnorMal]

Originally Posted by SuperDave

My point was I believe Spain will hunt down and massacre those responsible and not crawl away and hide regardless of their Iraq position - that's all.

In the imortal words of Les Claypool ~Primus~
"An Eye for an Eye...An Eye for a Tooth"
Spain has shown their true color...white, as in surrender. It is all to easy to wish it would all just go away but it won't. I think this is what the Spanish voters would like to happen. They now join the ranks of their fellow pacifists, i.e. sheep, France and Belgium.

[CBRVFR]

A related point..

Spain has had a longstanding internal conflict with a Basque Separatist group called ETA, which has employed a series of awful bombings, kidnappings, etc. to try to gain political advantage. To the best of my recollection, the Govenment of Spain has never capitulated in any way to them.

Now, ETA's got to be thinking, "A train! All we have to do is kill a bunch of peple on a train and we'll get what we have ben fighting for all these years !"

If I'm right, you'll be reading about this soon. This should be instructive for the rest of the world in terms of what happens when you take a step back from the line when you're dealing with terrorists.

Also, If this event is proved to be funded / planned by Al Queda, doesn't it establish rather than disprove a link between Iraq and AQ? In fact, radical Islamicists don't seem to recognize borders.. It's all "us against them."

[luvtolean]

Originally Posted by CBRVFR

A related point..
Also, If this event is proved to be funded / planned by Al Queda, doesn't it establish rather than disprove a link between Iraq and AQ? In fact, radical Islamicists don't seem to recognize borders.. It's all "us against them."

Or, that the Spanish government is using this as an excuse to leave Iraq. They can say to us "Solidarity, now give us trade benefits and other monetary help!" and to their own people, "see we left when we found out the evil Americans lied to us".

If GWB lied about WMD (as in he knew there were none beforehand), and it was "only" the way to sell the war, he deserves to be impeached, though I agree with the war. I don't think this is the case BTW.

[zenblader]

Originally Posted by SuperDave

Did we listen to the same President Bush speech and the United Nations Powell speech? I'm not making assumptions, I know what was presented to me (and the world). I don't know what was told to our troops, but I think you need to read the transcripts from those speeches made to the World. Ref- mushroom clouds/nuclear programs, immediate danger to the world, etc,etc. Hell, even I was ready to strap on a M16 and head over there. I'll stop, long overdebated topic already. My point was I believe Spain will hunt down and massacre those responsible and not crawl away and hide regardless of their Iraq position - that's all.

I agree. How obvious can this response in Spain be? The people clearly did not support their governments involvement with Iraq and so they voted them out. Particularly galling was the fact that Al Queda, not Iraq, has reached out and hurt them in a horrific manner. The people of Spain spoke with their votes as the folks in Britain are likely to do also. Al Queda is killing people regardless of the Iraq invasion, in fact in spite of it. Clearly the vote in Spain is not calling for an embrace of terrorism, just a proper emphasis on the real enemy.

[zenblader]

Originally Posted by luvtolean

Or, that the Spanish government is using this as an excuse to leave Iraq. They can say to us "Solidarity, now give us trade benefits and other monetary help!" and to their own people, "see we left when we found out the evil Americans lied to us".

If GWB lied about WMD (as in he knew there were none beforehand), and it was "only" the way to sell the war, he deserves to be impeached, though I agree with the war. I don't think this is the case BTW.

LtoL,

Tenet has already testified that 3 times he ran over to the Whitehouse in an attempt to reign in some of the rhetoric used to justify the war. Specifically, he told them that the story about the attempted Uranium purchase was unconfirmed and in fact likely false. Yet Bush used it in the State of the Union speech. Ummmm... Is it a lie to use a statement in defense of your position when you "know" that statement is misleading? I think so...and apparently so do alot of other people.

[luvtolean]

Tenet is one man. How many other people were telling there were WMD?

You'll always get 2 viewpoints on any matter.

What I mean is a tape, letter, e-mail or something like that of Bush saying something like, "I know there aren't WMD."

[zenblader]

Originally Posted by luvtolean

Tenet is one man. How many other people were telling there were weapons?

How many others were head of the CIA? Besides that's changing the subject. Not fair. I still say a lie is a lie. I seem to recall Rummy publicly saying we know Hussein's lying 'cause we know where the weapons are. Naturally he didn't share this info with UN inspectors while they were on the ground. Pilotless drones that can drop chems on America? Vans for making bio weapons? Lie. Lie. Granted Hussein was in violation on some UN R's but the case was sold on nukes, huge stockpiles of Bioweapons and Chemical weapon's factories.

[luvtolean]

It's not changing the subject, you have to define "truth" to define a "lie".(But I do know the meaning of the word "is" is ) The President has a lot of people at the director of CIA's level and higher telling him different things. I'm sure he had people from all sides telling him there were and there weren't WMD. He has to decide the "truth" out of all the noise.

You think you know the "truth" because you've read what the media publishes? Or because you've logically thought about it?

[Mo Noyz]

Originally Posted by luvtolean

You think you know the "truth" because you've read what the media publishes? Or because you've logically thought about it?

Think? Isn't that what we have the New York Times for?

[Baketech]

Back to CBRVFR's assertions....

I think the terrorists are definitely counting this as a "victory". The Spanish people sent a clear message that they will yield to intimidation.

A.Q. now knows they can impact a national election by bombing and killing....

IMHO, this puts the rest of the world at greater risk....including our own. And it's frightening to me that we have so many people in this country that are willing to let terrorists set our course and take us down the same path.

It was quite shocking to the world to learn that an airliner could be brought down with a simple razor blade....and it will absolutely blow everyones mind when peace and freedom are brought down by the simple act of appeasement....