[MACI4LIFE]

I just saw a blurry video of the innocent 26 yr old from philly get his head cut off. I never watch those graphic videos and i don't know why i did with this one, but that sent so many chills up my body, that it was the first time i wanted to puke.

If i ever get my hands on those good for nothing MOTHER ****ING, ********ING SWINE I WILL PERSONALLY RIP EVERY LIMB OFF THEIR BODY AND SHOVE IT UP THEIR GOOD FOR NOTHING LOW LIFE SON OF A BITCH ASSES!!!!!!!!!!!

Sorry for the rant, i'm sure it'll get deleted but i'm still shivering from the images. I'm sure that what i said above puts me down to their level, but right now i couldn't care less. I can only think of the inhumane savagery from these monsters, and what more they can do to the countless other hard working people in Iraq that are actually trying to help rebuild the country.

May Nick Berg rest in peace. God Bless him and his soul

[Bacchus]

Originally Posted by MACI4LIFE

I just saw a blurry video of the innocent 26 yr old from philly get his head cut off. I never watch those graphic videos and i don't know why i did with this one, but that sent so many chills up my body, that it was the first time i wanted to puke.

If i ever get my hands on those good for nothing MOTHER ****ING, ********ING SWINE I WILL PERSONALLY RIP EVERY LIMB OFF THEIR BODY AND SHOVE IT UP THEIR GOOD FOR NOTHING LOW LIFE SON OF A BITCH ASSES!!!!!!!!!!!

Sorry for the rant, i'm sure it'll get deleted but i'm still shivering from the images. I'm sure that what i said above puts me down to their level, but right now i couldn't care less. I can only think of the inhumane savagery from these monsters, and what more they can do to the countless other hard working people in Iraq that are actually trying to help rebuild the country.

May Nick Berg rest in peace. God Bless him and his soul

It's sad, it's sick, it's disgusting, it's reprehensible, it's just not right - but WTF did you expect after our own atrocities were aired for the world (including the Arab world)?! This is one phuck-up the current administration will never be able to sweep under the carpet. Whether the blame lies with the "big" players or the "little" players, it doesn't matter. It should have never happened! Now these few inept, naive, mismanaged soldiers have put EVERY soldier over there at huge risk. PHUCKING DISGUSTING!!!

[ratter]

I haven't seen the video and i don't want to, But i hope this thread doesn't get deleted, people have to react about things and if your doing it with your keyboard, you'll be a lot better off and in less trouble.

[Mo Noyz]

It's sad, it's sick, it's disgusting, it's reprehensible, it's just not right - but WTF did you expect after our own atrocities were aired for the world

Bacchus, surely you can't be even close to being serious!

Atrocities? You must be out of your ****ing mind!!!!! ****ing with some prisoners is one thing, chopping someones head off is something completely different.

If you truly view these on equal terms, then you are much more twisted than even I could have imagined.

[stegen]

i saw it to and its really sad. i have NO problem watching people die and disgusting stuff but this really hit me hard. i couldnt watch it more than twice. i feel sooooooo bad. these people are messed up. I hope more detaines get ****ed up. daniel pearl was had the same way this guy was and it was WAY before these things with the detainess. these arent people we are dealing with, their animals.

[zenblader]

Originally Posted by MACI4LIFE

May Nick Berg rest in peace. God Bless him and his soul

I'll join that prayer...

I don't understand what these people are doing over there. Honestly. There are Christian missionaries, out of work laborers, farmers, etc roaming a cruel land, at the mercy of cruel people. I say get the hell out! Iraq is not a freaking job opportunity! It is a tough, lawless place where even armored personnel carriers are not enough protection. Let's cut the crap here. They don't want Westerners in their country. They never have! Extremists are committing these atrocities but they exist because the quiet majority don't want us there either. We are trying to rebuild Iraq?!! I can't believe that our government is allowing civilians into Iraq at all!
They've got the oil. Let them rebuild their own country. If Chevron can triple it's profits from last year, Iraq can finance and rebuild its own damn infrastructure. They don't want us there. End of F'n story. Those that aren't killing our people are complicent by their tolerance for those that do.
And lets stuff this liberation story! If Iraq wanted to be liberated they would have come together as a people and thrown out Sadaam long before this. The truth is Iraq is a country divided by ethnicity and religious fervor. They've been killing each other for centuries. Now that we're there they have a common enemy. Get the civies out of Iraq!!!!

[Baketech]

You mean like this.....?

[ND4SPD]

Originally Posted by zenblader

I'll join that prayer...

I don't understand what these people are doing over there. Honestly. There are Christian missionaries, out of work laborers, farmers, etc roaming a cruel land, at the mercy of cruel people. I say get the hell out! Iraq is not a freaking job opportunity! It is a tough, lawless place where even armored personnel carriers are not enough protection. Let's cut the crap here. They don't want Westerners in their country. They never have! Extremists are committing these atrocities but they exist because the quiet majority don't want us there either. We are trying to rebuild Iraq?!! I can't believe that our government is allowing civilians into Iraq at all!
They've got the oil. Let them rebuild their own country. If Chevron can triple it's profits from last year, Iraq can finance and rebuild its own damn infrastructure. They don't want us there. End of F'n story. Those that aren't killing our people are complicent by their tolerance for those that do.
And lets stuff this liberation story! If Iraq wanted to be liberated they would have come together as a people and thrown out Sadaam long before this. The truth is Iraq is a country divided by ethnicity and religious fervor. They've been killing each other for centuries. Now that we're there they have a common enemy. Get the civies out of Iraq!!!!

You've never lived in a communist country, have you? Try it sometime, it's quite the eye opener.

[SuperDave]

Wow Baketech I didn't know that.

On April 5, the Bergs filed suit in federal court in Philadelphia, contending that their son was being held illegally by the U.S. military. The next day Berg was released.

If you're the parents, you have to feel somewhat responsible. The military apparently was trying to not only protect him but not give those freaks an easy hostage, especially with all the prisoner abuse scandal fueling the fires. Get the F#*K out! Freakin sick all the same. Rest in peace, and I'm sad for his family and friends.

BTW, that stupid grinning idiot of a female "soldier" who posed for all those pictures of nude/underwear pulled over their heads/dogs attacking/forced into human piles/ Iraqi prisoners, now says she was ordered, for example, to hold the leash (tied around his neck) of the naked prisoner and "smile" for the camera.

Yea. That's what happened. She was only following orders, and there must have been some sort of "wardrobe malfunction".

[Zeeman]

This is one whole big shitfight. It is terrible, and horrific. the worst part is, each time one side does something, the other does something back - it's an endless cycle.

Regarding the woman being given an order - do not discount it. Think about it for a second. You want to give the highest form of humiliation to a Muslim soldier, without severing a limb (something that means they can no longer get to their heaven, as they need to be complete - so I have been informed..) or killing them. A female (which they view as a very low form of human) treating you like a dog is pretty much the ultimate insult. I'm not sure if the pics were ever "supposed" to get out, but as I said, do not discount the possibilty that it is part of one big mind game, and th eorders came from the top...

I do find it amazing though that the woman with the man on a leash is getting more publicity than when there were Americans hanging from a bridge. The "coalition" are getting hit very hard by the media - I'm not a supporter of this whole war, but it seems the coalition REALLY need to behave like angels in order for the world to see that there are hideous acts being committed by the other side. The thing is, this is a war (that's right G. Dubya, it's not over yet - mission not yet accomplished), nerves are at a knife edge, people are jumpy, and hey, there are bullets being shot at your head! Of course this sort of crap is going to happen. Wouldn't you want to (and I quote) "If i ever get my hands on those good for nothing MOTHER ****ING, ********ING SWINE I WILL PERSONALLY RIP EVERY LIMB OFF THEIR BODY AND SHOVE IT UP THEIR GOOD FOR NOTHING LOW LIFE SON OF A BITCH ASSES!!!!!!!!!!! " if someone killed your best buddy, or father, or son, or sister etc... ?

It's just a shame we can't get the people who are actually starting these wars and fueling them into a room and have them kill each other, leaving the rest of us better off without them.

Z...

[BillAce]

The retribution story is just an excuse. Was it retribution when they slit Daniel Pearl's throat? Was it retribution when they dragged US citizens through the streets and hung them for all to see?

Where were these tough guys when about a year ago being in prison in Iraq meant, being fed to a Tiger or watching your teenaged daughter being raped? Did they kidnap and behead a member of the Republican Gaurd.

I think war sucks, but those animals brought the fight here. The best thing we could do was take the fight to their land where our trained personnel can represent us instead of secretaries in office buildings. The majority of the attackers in Iraq are foreign fighters. I think that's better for us, Why go into Jordan, Iran, Saudi Arabia etc. when they're willing to come to us in Iraq? We do need to be more aggressive though, no matter the outcome, were not going to make freinds over there. Our attitude should be,"I've got all the freinds I need, I'm just looking for some ememies."

[CyBeR929]

Originally Posted by Mo Noyz

Bacchus, surely you can't be even close to being serious!

Atrocities? You must be out of your ****ing mind!!!!! ****ing with some prisoners is one thing, chopping someones head off is something completely different.

If you truly view these on equal terms, then you are much more twisted than even I could have imagined.

[ConqSoft]

He wasn't in the military. He wasn't employed by the government, nor a contractor for the government. WTF would anyone be there otherwise? It's almost Darwin-like IMO....

[nomad]

Originally Posted by ConqSoft

He wasn't in the military. He wasn't employed by the government, nor a contractor for the government. WTF would anyone be there otherwise? It's almost Darwin-like IMO....

What he said.

The beheading and prisoner treatment are two separate events, they are only similar in nature:
1. Both were disgusting.
2. Both have no place in a civilized world.
3. The guy was stupid to be in Iraq in the first place and the soldiers... well... they were stupid to be caught on film if they wanted to do something so illegal.

[zenblader]

Originally Posted by BillAce

The majority of the attackers in Iraq are foreign fighters.

Where do you get that information? I've seen several interviews with reporters on the ground and various Iraqi's, including some that are working for us, that say otherwise. Of course there are outsiders, al queda members there now, but the Shiite Militia and Baathist recalcitrants number in the thousands. Look at the history in the region. Arabs do not want western people in their countries and rise up in violence against western occupation time and again. This WAS GOING TO HAPPEN. Either sooner or later. Wait until the Iraqi governing body vote to expell the US military once they are given the opportunity.

[CyBeR929]

Originally Posted by nomad

What he said.

The beheading and prisoner treatment are two separate events, they are only similar in nature:
1. Both were disgusting.
2. Both have no place in a civilized world.
3. The guy was stupid to be in Iraq in the first place and the soldiers... well... they were stupid to be caught on film if they wanted to do something so illegal.

"similar in nature" ??? Are you serious? Taking demeaning photo's of someone is nowhere near "similar in nature" to executing someone on video by beheading them with a knife while they scream. I'm sorry, but that ain't even the same fuggin ballpark....Yes, both are disgusting, I agree, but they are NOT even close to the "similar". "Similar" would have been shoving a stick up his arse or having him wear a dog collar or something....

And I do agree he had no business being over there, but that's a different topic. I just can't believe someone would somehow think executing a man is somehow "justified" by the prison scandal...heck, even the majority of Iraqi's think it was fuggin wrong...I don't see how anyone could equate the two.

[zenblader]

Originally Posted by SuperDave

Yea. That's what happened. She was only following orders, and there must have been some sort of "wardrobe malfunction".

I'll bet you 5$ that before the investigations are done and the court martials, the fickle finger of fate will point to Military Intelligence officials. Why am I so sure? Cuz during the hearings so far, when asked directly about these persons, Gen. Myers, Rumsfeld, everybody else just shrugged their shoulders and put on their best..."Duh, I don't know," faces. Gen Taguba was told by the MP's that MI people were running the show in the abscence of Brigade supervision. It is a stretch to believe that these lowly MP's just decided one day to play with the prisoners. Look at the photos. Where is the security in most of them? Numerous prisoners? Lying around with one or two unarmed Mp's smiling behind them? Yeah right! Even if you did come up with stupid tricks you wouldn't expose yourself to that potential danger unless there were others in the vicinity, off camera, with dogs and weapons backing you up.

[zenblader]

Originally Posted by CyBeR929

"similar in nature" ??? Are you serious? Taking demeaning photo's of someone is nowhere near "similar in nature" to executing someone on video by beheading them with a knife while they scream. I'm sorry, but that ain't even the same fuggin ballpark....Yes, both are disgusting, I agree, but they are NOT even close to the "similar". "Similar" would have been shoving a stick up his arse or having him wear a dog collar or something....

And I do agree he had no business being over there, but that's a different topic. I just can't believe someone would somehow think executing a man is somehow "justified" by the prison scandal...heck, even the majority of Iraqi's think it was fuggin wrong...I don't see how anyone could equate the two.

That's the nature of this whole thing. You kill us, we'll kill you. You humiliate us...we'll kill you. Like cruel little kids one upping on the playground, only with guns and knives. That is the nature of violence. That is what happens in war. We aren't getting a ton of sympathy around the world because most of the world did not see the need to invade Iraq. Don't blame me for saying this just listen to recent comments by NATO leaders, etc. On the other hand, we actually have French troops on the ground in Afghanistan helping us stabilize Afghanistan, if that is even possible. If we're going to go ahead with a war that does not have popular support around the world, you can't blame the rest of the world for doing the same thing some on this board are doing right now with their opinion that poor Berg should never have been there in the first place.

[ER]

Sorry you saw the video. I haven't watched it. I saw a video of Al Queda cutting the throat of a Russian soldier and that was bad enough.

I have to disagree with those who think that Rumsfeld would order the so-called "torture" of the prisoners. Why would they do it? If their goal was to slap the collective face of the Muslims over there, don't you think they would have been more careful with the photos? Would they not be able to see the effect they would have on the Iraqi people? I don't buy it....sorry. It sounds more like partisan politics to me. Kerry's campaign sure has taken advantage of the situation, haven't they?

Personally, while I strongly disagree with the humiliation -- especially considering the potential consequences -- it's ridiculous to try and compare it with the beheading of an American civilian.

[CyBeR929]

Originally Posted by zenblader

....opinion that poor Berg should never have been there in the first place.

Dude....please re-read my post...the one where I explicitly say "And I do agree he had no business being over there". My arguement is not that he wasn't walking a fine line of life/death by being over there on his own accord..that much is obvious.

The problem I have is the mentality that this is somehow justified or acceptable because of the prison scandal...that the two are somehow an equal trade. The world was outraged when the prison photo's broke. Where's the outrage now? Sure, people are shocked, but where are the calls to capture those responsible (calls originating from outside the US that is)? Where are the Muslim leaders denoucing this action?

[SuperDave]

Originally Posted by zenblader

Even if you did come up with stupid tricks you wouldn't expose yourself to that potential danger unless there were others in the vicinity, off camera, with dogs and weapons backing you up.

I've read your reply several times and I'm still not sure what you're saying. Are you say it Intelligence FORCING these poor soldiers to do all of that?

Sorry, not buying it. Were there other soldiers/guards in that area? Hell yea. Did they have .45s and M16s? Hell yea. What would they be afraid of? The prisoners are cuffed and naked!

Was there some 'techniques' suggested by Intelligence? More than likely.
Did those idiots intend for those photos to be distributed? Not a chance.
They acted like assholes and got caught. They're now facing serious prison time (UCMJ) and having nothing to lose at this point. The civilian intelligence cannot be held accountable to military law. The perfect alibi for those poor soldiers who were forced to humiliate those prisoners is now to blame them.

BTW, I agree, the beheading was not for retaliation, just an excuse.

[matt232]

Originally Posted by Mo Noyz

Bacchus, surely you can't be even close to being serious!

Atrocities? You must be out of your ****ing mind!!!!! ****ing with some prisoners is one thing, chopping someones head off is something completely different.

If you truly view these on equal terms, then you are much more twisted than even I could have imagined.

I'd say Bacchus was serious and I'd back him up.

Wasn't the treatment of prisoners during Sadam's rule one of the motivations for going back in? Surely for one administration to distance itself from accusations of just replacing one heartless ruler with another (not drawing parallels here just repeating first hand reported concerns from Iraqi people I saw on TV) then you would not want to repeat the same mistakes.

As Zeeman said a Muslim extremist being degraded by a woman is serious stuff and would probably be considered worse than death. And in their minds it would be a direct translation of the eye for a eye principal. There are a number of different cultures in the world and within those cultures is a range of beliefs, who is to say who’s take on events is the right one? Majority Rule? In that case China should be running things.

But one thing that should be made very clear is that Bacchus doesn't deserve a personal attack because he posted an opinion. Not Cool. Fair enough the issue is going to raise peoples blood pressure but lets count to ten before we misdirect any anger.

[ER]

Originally Posted by CyBeR929

Dude....please re-read my post...the one where I explicitly say "And I do agree he had no business being over there". My arguement is not that he wasn't walking a fine line of life/death by being over there on his own accord..that much is obvious.

The problem I have is the mentality that this is somehow justified or acceptable because of the prison scandal...that the two are somehow an equal trade. The world was outraged when the prison photo's broke. Where's the outrage now? Sure, people are shocked, but where are the calls to capture those responsible (calls originating from outside the US that is)? Where are the Muslim leaders denoucing this action?

Don't hold your breath. I don't mean to sound so negative, but I have yet to hear any sort of condemnation from the Muslim community against any act of violence such as this. You didn't hear it on 9/11 and you won't hear it now. When people start realizing that, then we might get serious about the potential threats we will surely face in the future in our own country.

Regarding the reaction of the rest of the world, we'll have to wait to see. I'll bet my 401k that I could predict many of the reactions, though.

[nomad]

Ok, I think that's established. I don't think anyone is comparing the two events equally. I don't think anyone here believes the two are really connected.

Cyber, I think we are on the same page... I was saying that they were only similar in the ways I described. I don't think the two events can be equated.

As for your comments that one is worse than the other, well, I guess that depends on what you believe. Is having your dignity removed and torture better than death? You aren't going to tell me that the US military hasn't killed anyone that wasn't a soldier are you? You aren't going to tell me that nobody has killed in cold blood over there have you? I'm quite sure there ar