[zenblader]

Originally Posted by ER

I think part of BDA's lash goes out to the Liberal powers and the media. I haven't done the research myself, but more than one talking head has noted the lack in coverage of the Nick Berg murder in favor of the prisoner abuse and/or other less important issues. Also, Kerry, Kennedy, and a few of the other leading Dems don't seem to have much to say about Nick Berg, but they sure do want to lash out against the Bush administration and against the US over the prisoner "abuse".

That might be part of his frustrations. You look at the leading Democrats and the media that supports them and the coverage and reaction is partisan at best.

Just who are the Liberal powers? Are they some hooded group that meets after work in an old warehouse where they sacrifice virgins, intimidate weak little editors and have Kentucky Fried chicken and beer after? Do they have really long fingernails and wear rings of power? Sheeesh! The last administration blamed the vicious right wing powers and their hold on the media. This is paranoic bull at its worst. There are some left leaning media, there are some right leaning media, there always has been and there always will be. That's why smart people actually go to multiple sources for their news as opposed to the current president who is quoted as saying that he doesn't read much...just relies on his staff to inform him. Yeah. Obviously.
By the way, Kerry actually met (MET) with Berg's father yesterday. Just because you don't listen to "the other side" doesn't mean they aren't saying anything.

[ER]

Originally Posted by zenblader

Just who are the Liberal powers? Are they some hooded group that meets after work in an old warehouse where they sacrifice virgins, intimidate weak little editors and have Kentucky Fried chicken and beer after? Do they have really long fingernails and wear rings of power? Sheeesh! The last administration blamed the vicious right wing powers and their hold on the media. This is paranoic bull at its worst. There are some left leaning media, there are some right leaning media, there always has been and there always will be. That's why smart people actually go to multiple sources for their news as opposed to the current president who is quoted as saying that he doesn't read much...just relies on his staff to inform him. Yeah. Obviously.
By the way, Kerry actually met (MET) with Berg's father yesterday. Just because you don't listen to "the other side" doesn't mean they aren't saying anything.

Well now wait a minute. Am I believe that because you say Kerry met with Berg's father that he was being genuine, yet Bush wasn't in the so-called photo op when he hugged that girl? Who sounds partisan now?

When I say the Liberal powers, I'm talking about the leading Democrats - Kerry, Clinton, Kennedy, etc. While there is bias in the media that tilts both ways, do you really think that the media isn't more inherently Liberal? Come on...the NY Times - the most powerful paper in the world - is the most blatant example. Which TV news aside from FoxNews (which I consider to be neutral, honestly) can be considered bias towards the Right? I'm not the only one who thinks that the media's coverage of the Nick Berg murder has been underwhelming. Personally, I think the prison abuse does more damage to the Bush campaign than does Nick's murder, and that's why it has received the coverage it has.

Oh yeah, I do read both sides -- I'm sitting here reading your Leftist verbage now. Seriously, I try to get a pretty wide spectrum of opinions...

[Mo Noyz]

Sorry for my big leap gentlemen.

ZenB, to answer your question, I was referring to what Bacchus had said in the post before mine:

My point is, I don't think the "little guys" should pay the ultimate price.

I contend that the ones who committed this act should INDEED pay the ultimate price.

[Bacchus]

Originally Posted by Mo Noyz

So, in other words,the ones who actually comitted this crime are innocent?

Did I say anything even remotely like that?! Please take a reading comprehension class...

[Bacchus]

Originally Posted by ER

Well now wait a minute. Am I believe that because you say Kerry met with Berg's father that he was being genuine, yet Bush wasn't in the so-called photo op when he hugged that girl? Who sounds partisan now?

Did zenblader make that comparison?

[Bacchus]

Originally Posted by Mo Noyz

Sorry for my big leap gentlemen.

ZenB, to answer your question, I was referring to what Bacchus had said in the post before mine:



I contend that the ones who committed this act should INDEED pay the ultimate price.

As do I Mo. I just stated the obvious, and I'll bet my last dollar that personnel higher up than these entry level soldiers are deeply involved in this scandal. Can you understand that?!

[ER]

Originally Posted by Bacchus

Did zenblader make that comparison?

No, I did because he thought that Bush was camera-hunting when he hugged a young-girl, yet Kerry is genuine in his visit to the Bergs (as opposed to seeking political gain during the stunt). I just found it ironic that he would question Bush's sincerity but not Kerry's and I wanted to take a shot at him for it.

[luvtolean]

Originally Posted by Mo Noyz

I contend that the ones who committed this act should INDEED pay the ultimate price.

Define committed please? I know that seems like a simple question but are we talking about the soldiers who claim to have been ordered to do it? They are the ones that "committed" it according to my understanding...and if they were ordered I don't blame them. If they weren't trained in handling prisoners I also don't blame them.

[Bacchus]

Originally Posted by ER

No, I did because he thought that Bush was camera-hunting when he hugged a young-girl, yet Kerry is genuine in his visit to the Bergs (as opposed to seeking political gain during the stunt). I just found it ironic that he would question Bush's sincerity but not Kerry's and I wanted to take a shot at him for it.

I know ER... This is an election year, and there will be many more occurrences that will be looked upon from different perspectives. It obviously gets very difficult to separate the BS from the sincerity.

Peace, out...

[Mo Noyz]

Originally Posted by Bacchus

Did I say anything even remotely like that?! Please take a reading comprehension class...

Did I forget to mention that I'm gonna kick your ass the next time you're in Mizzou??!!

[Mo Noyz]

LTL, I'm sure it's a complicated situation.

But I'm just not going to buy that these soldiers were unwilling to carry out these "orders". There are some things in this life you just don't do if you are an honorable human being. I'd take my punishment for not following orders before I got involved in such nastiness.

And I'd be willing to bet that if any of these soldiers truly DIDN'T feel comfortable with following these orders, they're now wishing they had done the same.

[luvtolean]

For sure...other than the fact I'd fire Rumsfeld.

[bwhip]

Former Presidential candidate Joe Lieberman wrote what I thought was a very thoughtful editorial on this subject in today's Wall Street Journal:

'Let Us Have Faith'
By JOSEPH I. LIEBERMAN

WASHINGTON -- Watching the reels of pictures from the prison in Iraq was a jarring descent into a world without values or limits or law. I was appalled, of course, by the American guards' lack of any respect for the humanity of their prisoners. But I was also struck and saddened by their lack of respect, as seen in the pictures they took of themselves, for their own humanity, for their own inherent human dignity.

How could these deeds have been done by soldiers wearing the uniform of this country, which has always proudly defined itself by the values in our Declaration of Independence -- that every man and woman is endowed by our Creator with inalienable rights, the very rights we are in Iraq to make real for the Iraqi people?

What caused these heinous acts? Was it just the latest example of the reality which history reveals, that some soldiers crack under the stress of war? Was it the human weakness of guards exploiting the temporary power they hold over those in their control? Was it directed, encouraged, facilitated or tolerated by higher-ups in the chain of command? Was it somehow also the cumulative effect on a generation raised in an entertainment and Internet culture that has grown increasingly violent and pornographic?

* * *
I do not know enough yet to answer these important questions with sufficient confidence. They must be asked and answered. But I do know enough to reach the following conclusions:

First, we must aggressively and thoroughly investigate what was happening at Abu Ghraib prison and at every other American military prison. We must hold accountable anyone who was responsible for wrongdoing, which requires that we undertake the most independent and unfettered investigation possible. I have high hopes for the special investigative group composed of former Secretaries Schlesinger and Brown, Congresswoman Fowler, and General Horner, which seems to have been given appropriately broad and independent authority, and the capacity to hire its own staff.

This investigation, and the justice it produces, should make clear to ourselves and the world that we Americans will not tolerate such inhumanity, even in the treatment of those who are themselves wantonly inhumane to us. The beheading of Nick Berg just because he was an American made painfully clear how little our enemies value life. Prison abuse must not blur the enormous moral differences between us and those we fight in Iraq, and in the world-wide war on terrorism.

And that leads to my second conclusion. We cannot allow the prison scandal in Iraq to diminish our own American sense of national honor and purpose, or further erode support for our just and necessary cause in Iraq. American opponents of the war may try to do the latter, while foreign critics and enemies of the United States will try to do the former. The misdeeds of a few do not alter the character of our nation or the honor of the many who serve in our defense -- and the world's -- every day. Winning the war we are now fighting in Iraq against Saddam loyalists and jihadist terrorists remains critical to the security of the American people, the freedom of the Iraqi people, and the hopes of all the Middle East for stability and peace.

* * *
Most Democrats and Republicans, including President Bush and Senator Kerry, agree that we must successfully finish what we have started in Iraq. Now is the time for all who share that goal to make our agreement publicly clear, to stress what unites us. Many argue that we can only rectify the wrongs done in the Iraqi prisons if Secretary Rumsfeld resigns. I disagree. Unless there is clear evidence connecting him to the wrongdoing, it is neither sensible nor fair to force the resignation of the secretary of defense, who clearly retains the confidence of the Commander in Chief, in the midst of a war. I have yet to see such evidence. Donald Rumsfeld's removal would delight foreign and domestic opponents of America's presence in Iraq.

But, as we are showing in our response to Abu Ghraib, we are a nation of laws, and therefore must punish only those who are proven guilty. The Iraqi prison scandal has been a nightmare at an already difficult moment in the war in Iraq. But our cause remains as critical as ever to our security and our values. We must therefore persist in it. With determination and confidence, we should recall President Lincoln's words at another difficult moment in American history in pursuit of another just cause: "Let us have faith that right makes might; and in that faith let us do our duty as we understand it."

Well said, Senator!

[nomad]

Originally Posted by ER

No, I did because he thought that Bush was camera-hunting when he hugged a young-girl, <snip>

I guess Bush and Clinton have more in common than we'd like to admit...

[zenblader]

Originally Posted by ER

I think the prison abuse does more damage to the Bush campaign than does Nick's murder, and that's why it has received the coverage it has.

Oh yeah, I do read both sides -- I'm sitting here reading your Leftist verbage now. Seriously, I try to get a pretty wide spectrum of opinions...

ER,

Have you considered the possibility that the prison abuse scandal gets more press than the heinous beheading because we are all aware that terrorists commit despicable acts, but very few people in this country were aware that our own people could commit the acts documented in the pictures by the press? I maintain that, although the beheading was another hideous example of terrorists trying to get attention thru a terrible act (which by itself gives reason not to overplay it), in many ways the news that American troops who are supposed to know better, who represent all of us by wearing the uniform, were mistreating detainees in such a manner was more shocking than Berg's death. I'm not equating the severity of the act of gruesome murder and prisoner abuse, just suggesting that one was the more "unexpected".

I watch CNN, read Reuters, subscribe to the Wall Street Journal, read BBC News online, CBS, FOX, MSNBC. etc. We can certainly disagree about the level of lean. But isn't it ironic that every time a story puts out information that hurts the left, the left screams bias, and every time the news comes out with something that may hurt the right, the right screams bias. I just hear alot of complaining but not much logic. It is very typical of the media to be critical of a current administration, or of any Congress. Republicans control Congress and the Whitehouse. Now why do you think they may be getting some negative attention?

[Skully]

Originally Posted by Mo Noyz

But I'm just not going to buy that these soldiers were unwilling to carry out these "orders". There are some things in this life you just don't do if you are an honorable human being. I'd take my punishment for not following orders before I got involved in such nastiness.

And I'd be willing to bet that if any of these soldiers truly DIDN'T feel comfortable with following these orders, they're now wishing they had done the same.

You are trained not to follow orders which conflict with the Geneva Convention or Law of Armed Conflict. In fact, you get refresher training annually.

It's time some of these people step up to the plate and take responsibility for their actions. I'm sure 99.9% of the men and women in uniform are sickened and embarrased when they see these pics on TV.

[BDA116]

Story on the news here that one of the local Nat'l Guard M.P. units was at that prison just before the unit that acted up. These guys are saying that nothing of the kind was happening when they were there, and that it wasn't part of the interragation process.
Also, anyone read that Congressmen that viewed the rest of the photos (I thought they said they wouldn't leak anything ) say that most of them are XXX pictures and videos of our soldiers doing each other in front of the prisoners? It appears that the one female that is in most of the pictures - the same one blaming military intelligence commands - is quite the little slut.

[luvtolean]

We'll see, but this is exactly why I said I'd fire him. Rumsfeld is friggin dirty on this one...

http://story.news.yahoo.com/news?tmp..._pentagon_dc_5

[nomad]

Originally Posted by luvtolean

We'll see, but this is exactly why I said I'd fire him. Rumsfeld is friggin dirty on this one...

http://story.news.yahoo.com/news?tmp..._pentagon_dc_5

Can they get him for authorizing that crap or is it negligence since he didn't directly give those orders? I bet he's going to slime his way out of it.

Slime bucket. Man... Bush is in bed with him. Someone's going to get fleas.

[Baketech]

Originally Posted by luvtolean

We'll see, but this is exactly why I said I'd fire him. Rumsfeld is friggin dirty on this one...

http://story.news.yahoo.com/news?tmp..._pentagon_dc_5

You are calling for Rummy's head because of an unsubstantiated report in the New Yorker?

You are a bit too smart to let the bully pulpit journos make up your mind for you....

[luvtolean]

It's the first report. We'll see if there are more. I think there will be.

[Baketech]

Here's what puzzles me most about the Abu Ghraib story, and the continued self flagellation by our leftist press.......

In the first Gulf War, American prisoners were tortured at Abu Ghraib!

Where were the stories both then and now?

Where was/is the outrage, and why arent they talking about it today?