[luvtolean]

This is pissing off. Whatever happened here, the guys at the top need to get in trouble, not just sacrifice a couple of regular Joes to appease the world. The war for "hearts and minds" was lost right here. Now the Afghans are claiming systematic prisoner abuse...big surprise.

If I was Bush, I'd fire Rumsfeld.

http://story.news.yahoo.com/news?tmp...msfeld_iraq_21

[Skully]

I disagree. Yes, the officers have overall responsibility for the actions that take place in the prison.

Neither the SecDef nor the officers were the ones that gave these dumbasses the digital cameras to take the pics or told them to act in such a manner.

These idiots were doing things they knew were wrong and should suffer the consequences for their actions.

Alot of careers will end over this, some deserved, some not.

[WildBillF1]

Rumsfeld is doing an awesome job. I'm sure that the troops are facing a lot of uncertainty right now in regard to public support, Rumsfeld is doing his part by rallying the troops.

Those assigned to the prison knew what was going on was wrong, the brass at the prison was responsible for those under his/her command. I have no sympathy for the derelicts that recorded their crimes as they were committed. It is a shame that the actions of a few men and women has affected so many. Hopefully justice will be swift.

[figment]

Once I became responsible for others, (professionally) and something "bad" happened in my group...the first question I was asked by another department head was, "how could YOU let this happen?" This is a top-down problem IMO. This kind of stuff wreaks of a lack in discipline.

[ER]

In this case, I think it should be Rumsfeld who should be asking "How could YOU let this happen?" to the senior officers in charge. When something bad happens in my company, they go after the direct project-VPs, not the senior board members. If that doesn't fix the problem, then it starts to go up the ladder.

It will be called "Camp Redemption," he said, at the suggestion of the Iraqi Governing Council, and will provide better living conditions for the detainees...

They shouldn't have been humiliating the prisoners -- especially considering the consequences of their actions getting out. Let's not forget that the "detainees" are Iraqi soldiers who fought against us, though.

[luvtolean]

Yes figment, my thoughts too.

To me this is overlooking very very important details. There is no way in hell this should've been overlooked. In all wars, media/propaganda is very important, but in this one it is especially so. Rumsfeld should've stressed to everyone under him that Iraqi prisoners were to be well treated. Prisoner abuse is not a new story, and he should've seen it coming. It is a failure in his leadership that this occured.

A number of years ago an aircraft carrier was run aground in Alameda in the SF Bay. Of course this was very embarassing to the Navy, and they fired the CO of the ship. To the average Joe this may make sense, only there's one important detail, all ships have to be turned over to a civilian pilot inside the bay...therefore the CO could not have done anything to prevent the **** up. Doesn't matter, it happened on his watch, adios. But he wasn't a politician, so it was easy.

I also theorize that Rumsfeld is not reporting stuff properly to his superiors...but that I can't prove.

[Skully]

Originally Posted by figment

Once I became responsible for others, (professionally) and something "bad" happened in my group...the first question I was asked by another department head was, "how could YOU let this happen?" This is a top-down problem IMO. This kind of stuff wreaks of a lack in discipline.

True. So are you saying the people who committed the crimes don't deserve to be punished?

[luvtolean]

I think they should be punished, but it should be commensurate with the crime (which in reality is very minimal) not a political statement. But you watch, Rumsfeld is gonna hammer the piss out of a couple guys on TV, ruin their careers, to save his ass.

[figment]

Originally Posted by Skully

True. So are you saying the people who committed the crimes don't deserve to be punished?

no. They deserve the severe punishment. Those that are deemed to have had management over them or the situation and thus oversight should be repremanded/demoted/etc as appropriate...

[zenblader]

Originally Posted by luvtolean

I think they should be punished, but it should be commensurate with the crime (which in reality is very minimal) not a political statement. But you watch, Rumsfeld is gonna hammer the piss out of a couple guys on TV, ruin their careers, to save his ass.

Agreed, L2L. This wouldn't have been as big a feck up if Rummy had dealt with the reports swiftly, informed Congressional committees about the photos on the quiet and ordered court martials before it all leaked to the press. At the very least it would have appeared to the U.S. public and the world that he had responded forcefully at an early date as opposed to waiting until CBS blew the cover off. But secrecy and denial is sooo much a part of the gov/pol machine that they can't seem to help themselves. Especially the current administration.

[zenblader]

Originally Posted by luvtolean

This is pissing off. Whatever happened here, the guys at the top need to get in trouble, not just sacrifice a couple of regular Joes to appease the world. The war for "hearts and minds" was lost right here. Now the Afghans are claiming systematic prisoner abuse...big surprise.

If I was Bush, I'd fire Rumsfeld.

It's not over by a long shot. That little private has stated on the record that she was following orders. The prison was turned over to Military intelligence a couple months prior. When she starts naming names more **** will hit the fan. When you hear the Pentagon saying "minimal" and "five or six individuals" before their own investigations have even been completed, you know its bull.

[Skully]

Originally Posted by luvtolean

I think they should be punished, but it should be commensurate with the crime (which in reality is very minimal) not a political statement. But you watch, Rumsfeld is gonna hammer the piss out of a couple guys on TV, ruin their careers, to save his ass.

Violation of the Law of Armed Conflict isn't considered minimal. They deserve to get hammered.

[figment]

Originally Posted by Skully

Violation of the Law of Armed Conflict isn't considered minimal. They deserve to get hammered.

agreed. This is a major issue that has brought disgrace upon many, made the battle for hearts and minds almost unwinable and jepardized/complicated the mission and added another magnitude of threat level to our troops. A whopper of a

[BDA116]

Which leaders of the arab world, which leaders of the Muslim world, which leaders of Al-Qaeda are we demanding step down for the REAL torture, abuse, murder and mutilation of Americans?
Where is the outcry in the extreme left wing Congressional demos? Where is the outcry in the media? It doesn't exist because they care more about winning this election season than they do winning any war or keeping Americans safe.
I couldn't care less about this prisoner humiliation crap. It should be back page news compared to the real atrocities that are being committed every day by the muslim cowards.
Tell you what - I have an open invitation to anyone: you can come take as many nude humiliating photos of me as you want. But afterward, I will beat the every living fvck out of you with whips, chains and a baseball bat. I will bury you up to your neck and release a bucket of scorpions. I will cut out your tongue, and rape your wife, daughter(s), mother in front of your face. Then, I will saw your head off with a dull hunting knife from the back, with you bound, while you scream in agony - all the while yelling "My God is great!" over your screams.
Then, when it comes time to tell the story, we will only mention the nude photos of me and the humiliation I suffered. Fair enough? Why not, you think it is now.
You want my honest opinion on the matter?
Fvck Allah, and all the prisoners there with American blood on their hands. If even one American life was saved due to information gathered through the humiliation it was well worth it.
Who should be punished? If you have to punish someone, then the ones who actually did it along with their immediate commanding officers.
When an employee at Wal-Mart harasses a customer, does the CEO get fired? The Chairman of the Board? President?
There, I said it. And I couldn't possibly care less about hurting zen's feelings in the process.

[zenblader]

Originally Posted by BDA116

Which leaders of the arab world, which leaders of the Muslim world, which leaders of Al-Qaeda are we demanding step down for the REAL torture, abuse, murder and mutilation of Americans?
Where is the outcry in the extreme left wing Congressional demos? Where is the outcry in the media? It doesn't exist because they care more about winning this election season than they do winning any war or keeping Americans safe.
I couldn't care less about this prisoner humiliation crap. It should be back page news compared to the real atrocities that are being committed every day by the muslim cowards.
Tell you what - I have an open invitation to anyone: you can come take as many nude humiliating photos of me as you want. But afterward, I will beat the every living fvck out of you with whips, chains and a baseball bat. I will bury you up to your neck and release a bucket of scorpions. I will cut out your tongue, and rape your wife, daughter(s), mother in front of your face. Then, I will saw your head off with a dull hunting knife from the back, with you bound, while you scream in agony - all the while yelling "My God is great!" over your screams.
Then, when it comes time to tell the story, we will only mention the nude photos of me and the humiliation I suffered. Fair enough? Why not, you think it is now.
You want my honest opinion on the matter?
Fvck Allah, and all the prisoners there with American blood on their hands. If even one American life was saved due to information gathered through the humiliation it was well worth it.
Who should be punished? If you have to punish someone, then the ones who actually did it along with their immediate commanding officers.
When an employee at Wal-Mart harasses a customer, does the CEO get fired? The Chairman of the Board? President?
There, I said it. And I couldn't possibly care less about hurting zen's feelings in the process.

Don't worry about hurting my feelings, BD. I don't bruise that easily.
When you say "Fvck Allah" and "... if one American Life is saved due to information gathered thru humiliation it was worth it..." you are reacting to the moment out of anger. Nobody here has said that Berg's horrible death is on par with prisoners being humiliated, although many Arabs would think so because they view life differently than we do. The problem is that we all don't think alike. The world is a huge ball with billions of peoples and hundreds of societies. We aren't going to solve anything with "Fvck this" and "Fvck them". We aren't going to win a war against terrorism by humiliating people. We hold life precious so terrorists take our lives. Terrorists don't hold there own lives as precious, they cling to old hatreds and bias. You can kill a thousand terrorists and a thousand will take their place. This has been the history of terror since Cain. The only sure way to decrease terrorism is thru multi-national cooperation, education and strong defense. Humiliating anyone just makes it worse, killing Berg just makes it worse. And the cycle of violence goes on and on.

[luvtolean]

BDA, the problem is that we claim to be better than them. To my mind, it's that simple.

[zenblader]

Originally Posted by BDA116

Where is the outcry in the extreme left wing Congressional demos? Where is the outcry in the media? It doesn't exist because they care more about winning this election season than they do winning any war or keeping Americans safe.

There, I said it. And I couldn't possibly care less about hurting zen's feelings in the process.

I don't understand you, BD. You don't listen because you don't want to listen. I've heard pols on both sides of the aisle express their disgust and sorrow for what happened to Berg. I don't discount Republican words simply because I don't agree with some of the Republican platform. I don't think Republicans want to ruin this country just because I don't agree with some of their policies. Wake up, man! It's a big world outside. People who think differently than you aren't trying to steal your car, your girl, or open this country up to terrorists and disease. Jeebus!

[luvtolean]

I forgot to say, I separate the beheading and prisoner incidents completely.

[ER]

Originally Posted by zenblader

I don't understand you, BD. You don't listen because you don't want to listen. I've heard pols on both sides of the aisle express their disgust and sorrow for what happened to Berg. I don't discount Republican words simply because I don't agree with some of the Republican platform. I don't think Republicans want to ruin this country just because I don't agree with some of their policies. Wake up, man! It's a big world outside. People who think differently than you aren't trying to steal your car, your girl, or open this country up to terrorists and disease. Jeebus!

I think part of BDA's lash goes out to the Liberal powers and the media. I haven't done the research myself, but more than one talking head has noted the lack in coverage of the Nick Berg murder in favor of the prisoner abuse and/or other less important issues. Also, Kerry, Kennedy, and a few of the other leading Dems don't seem to have much to say about Nick Berg, but they sure do want to lash out against the Bush administration and against the US over the prisoner "abuse".

That might be part of his frustrations. You look at the leading Democrats and the media that supports them and the coverage and reaction is partisan at best.

[ER]

You know, I haven't heard it or not, but I wonder if the reason Rumsfeld didn't privately address the issue with Congress before the photos leaked was because he knew that they would be leaked as soon as he did so. It seems that both parties are willing to leak sensitive information if it might help their own party or hinder the opposing party. That's not to defend Rummy, but the thought crossed my mind.

Imagine getting the photos and report of what happened. The first thought that would cross your mind is, "Oh sh!t...if this gets out it's going to really put our soldiers in danger in Iraq". You know that swift action needs to be taken, but you're also aware of the consequences of the photos getting out, and you know that the more people that see them, the more likely it is that they will be leaked.

I guess you can toss that on top of the pile of reasons I'd never be a politician. We'll have to wait and see how it plays out.

[nomad]

Rummy's a slime bucket... Although I doubt he had anything to do with giving orders for that kind of low-level funk in the prison, he is not a man I would trust. "Yeung sui" is how I'd describe him if I met him on the street.

BDA, during the World Wars and Vietnam the enemy treated POW's in humiliating and torturous ways. The lessons learned by the collective free world lead to certain rules of war... without these rules, war is purely barbaric. Are you suggesting that we discard all the lessons we learned and the wisdom gained over the last century? Are you suggesting that "fvcking" allah is a good appraoch to resolving the situation? I you suggesting that the USA lower its behaviour to that of the Viet Cong? Hell, your lashing out at "Allah" is just as bad as theirs - Can't you hear them saying, "Fvck USA! If this one hostage/murder saves just one Iraqi life it'll be worth it."

edit: Taken by itself, the prisoner treatment was inhumane. Does anyone dispute this? For these acts, justice should be sought and a punishment should be delivered. I hope the investigations are carried out with integrity thoroughness.

edit: Taken by itself, the hostage/beheading is a disgusting, cowardly act and a cold blooded murder. I believe they should be given a death sentence if ever apprehended.

[nhfirefighter13]

They shouldn't have been humiliating the prisoners -- especially considering the consequences of their actions getting out.

Anyone familiar with the Stamford Prison Study from the early 70's?

[Mo Noyz]

Rumsfeld should've stressed to everyone under him that Iraqi prisoners were to be well treated.

Yes, I agree. But you are saying this as though you know for a fact that he didn't. You'll have to forgive me if I'm not so convinced.

Why in the hell is it that the actions of these twisted few has so many people pointing their fingers at the very top? How ridiculous. Like Bush and Rummy write, read and review the daily itineraries of all 1400,000+ troops in Iraq?!! Please......

I also theorize that Rumsfeld is not reporting stuff properly to his superiors

This is not such a stretch. Don't know if it can or ever will be proven, but I'm open tto the possibilities. Especially considering some of the astounding remarks he made to Chris Matthews last week.