[oldfogey]

"US Warplanes Enter Iran's Air Space: Local Press
August 25, 2004 China View
TEHRAN, (Xinhuanet) -- Five US warplanes entered
Iran's airspace last Thursday night from the country's
southwestern border, an Iranian newspaper reported
Tuesday.
The Persian daily Seday-e Edalat said the five US jet
warplanes entered Iran from the southwestern
Shalamcheh border and flew over the border city of
Khorramshahr for a while.
The planes flew at a height of 10 kilometers overhead
the city before heading to the Arvand River, the Iranian
part of the Shattal-Arab waterway, the paper added.
While the objective of the fight violation was not known
yet, some military specialists believed such moves were
aimed at assessing the sensitivity of Iran's anti-aircraft
defense system, the paper said.
Military and air force officials didn't make comments on
the incident, according to the report.
In June, three British boats and eight marines aboard
were detained for several days by Iranian naval guards
for their alleged intrusion into Iran's territorial waters in
Arvand River."

North Korea and Iran next on the neo-conservatives list, and visibly cooperating on nuclear technology. UN engaged in Iran's case over the nuclear issue and talking about security council measures. Republicans gather in New York, a perfect terrorist target.

Hope you guys stay safe.

[Johnny Diablo]

North Korea and Iran? There isn't any oil in North Korea?

[oldfogey]

No, but they do have nuclear weapons and missiles and are supplying their technology to Iran, which does have oil and is actively involved in Iraqi politics.

Oh, and Korea joins the presidential election commentary game... http://news.bbc.co.uk/1/hi/world/asi...ic/3589766.stm

[Baketech]

I have complete confidence that the UN will find a good solution with respect to Iran and N. Korea.....right after they finish up the good work they are doing in the Sudan....

[oldfogey]

Just implying the US is trying to line up global support for the next move on Iran as it has done each time previously, whether successful or not...NK is just a nasty joker.

[Kuss929]

Bush is just trying to get control of all of Asia cause next round you get 7 extra armies.

[ER]

Most seem to have short memories regarding 9-11, and no one should be taking either of those nations lightly. Whatever you want to name the collective terrorist movement that we're currently fighting, their most current objective is the destruction of the Western world. I don't think any of us need a nuclear armed Iran or Korea helping them out.

I saw a great interview on O'Reilly's show three weeks ago. He was interviewing a leading Muslim scholar and was asking some tough questions regarding terrorism and how it relates to Islam. The scholar stated that terrorists adopted the freedom-fight in Israel and the surrounding neighbors because it was a convenient platform from which to continue their fight. But he went on to say that while they were extremists in the world of Islam, they believed that their primary goal is and should always be the expansion of their religion through force. That is, they should attack and conquer to spread their beliefs. When asked what percentage of the rest of the Muslim world supported their "cause", he answered -- over 50%. Over half of the Muslim world is sympathetic to their fight against us.

When will people take this seriously? We have a motivated and organized force that wants nothing less than our destruction (and then yours when they're done with us) and they have the support of over half of the Muslim world. Given that, doesn't anyone think that Muslim states like Iran might be willing to help them out? They already hate us as it us.

This isn't a slam on the religion of Islam at all -- this guy went on to express that the Koran doesn't justify this type of violence to spread what he believed to be a peaceful religion. It's just a note of the fact that there is a growing movement that wants to see us disappear and politicians like Kerry want to talk about fighting a more sensitive war while involving the UN - a body that is never going to have the best interest of the US in mind when making decisions.

If they can fly our planes into our buildings, can't they blow up our cities with nukes if they get their hands on them?

[bwhip]

Originally Posted by Baketech

I have complete confidence that the UN will find a good solution with respect to Iran and N. Korea.....right after they finish up the good work they are doing in the Sudan....

[TAZ]

The certainly can blow us up with nuclear weapons (or even "nucular" weapons).

In an interesting turn, this topic seems to meld two of our forums: politics and religion. Let's consider some facts:
- Religion is too often used as an excuse to eliminate or attempt to assimilate people who have differing beliefs.
- Religion in one way or another is the cause of most - if not all - of the world's major conflict...Protestants and Catholics in Ireland; Palestinians and Jews in Israel; Muslims and Christians(?)
- It is impossible for the tenets of every religion to be "correct". Someone is "wrong", and it's even more likely that EVERYONE who believes in a God or an afterlife is wrong. Remember that Jesus lived just 2000 years ago....people believed in the "Sun God" and the "God of Rain" and the "God of Fire" and "Isis" for much longer than that. Why is Jesus any more believable as God Incarnate than any of the dozens or hundreds of previous versions?

Personally, I'm not convinced that human beings are the most advanced form of life in the universe. However, I don't believe in Creation. I believe that Jesus Christ was an actual person and a great man, inspiring millions, and perhaps even doing amazing things. However, I don't believe that he was immaculately conceived; he was not the son of "God" any more than Dubya is a master of English.

In my mind, religion exists because through the centuries people have sought answers to questions and things they didn't understand...such as
"How did we get here?"
"What happens when we die?"
"Is there a higher power?"
"Are there consequences if I do bad things?"
"Why does it rain?"
"Why do men have more ribs than women?"

Religion conveniently provides these answers, gives people a sense of purpose, provides a list of consequences if you disobey the rules, and provides daily or weekly life structure (like attending services or praying). However, it also takes away personal accountability ("God intended it." "God meant it to be." "God TOLD me to blow up those schoolchildren!"); it inspires violence in people who don't like the chosen - or given (by birth?) - religion of his neighbor. IMO, religion is a bad idea overall, and as illustrated in ER's (great) post, it just might lead to WW3 (The Western World versus the Muslims). And how stupid would THAT be, if in fact there is no God, no seventy virgins awaiting us when we die, no afterlife, no reincarnation, no heaven or hell?

Sorry. Back to work for me.

[BDA116]

Iran is already sending soldiers to fight against the U.S. in Iraq. They started the war against us already. We would destroy their military as easily as we destroyed the Iraqi military. However, once the democratic Iraqi government is free from the radical outside fighters stalling their freedom process, there will be uprisings from within Iran.
If Iran continues their nuclear process, which is in violation of the UN and IAEA, and they are NOT cooperating on the issues at all, the Israelies will step in and destroy the reactors, like they did with Iraq.
North Korea? All talk. They are no more of a threat than france is to defending an invading army. If the little imp ever decides to try to attack South Korea, the Chinese will step in to stop them.
A bunch of talk over absolutely nothing.

[Baketech]

Our sabre rattling with Iran has less to do with their nuclear aspirations, and more to do with Al Sadr being a tool of the Iranian mullahs...

Long term, let Europe deal with Iran....and let Asia deal with PRK....it's their problem not ours.


I'm starting to warm up to the Bushy plan....build a missile defense, and get our troops out of the ICBM blast circles so that we can freely strike the rogues if Europe and Asia fail to deal with them....

[dB]

Originally Posted by ER

This isn't a slam on the religion of Islam at all -- this guy went on to express that the Koran doesn't justify this type of violence to spread what he believed to be a peaceful religion.

I've been reading up on this a bit as we hear conflicting things about what the Koran says. The Koran was supposedly "revealed" to Mohammed over a period of about 20 years and it's tone certainly changes in that time. Confusingly, the book is not organized chronologically, so you find messages of peace/love intermixed with messages of dealing harshly with and killing "infidels". But the fundamentalist (extremeist?) Muslims believe that the latter revelations (which get increasingly violent as did the life of Mohammed as he gained power and influence through force) supercede the former. Further, the fundamentalists view the moderate and secular Muslims, those unwilling to fight for Islam, as infidels as well (the assasination of Sadat, for example).

It's not been an encouraging study.

[TAZ]

Say, how about we get a modern Mohammed to have a new "revelation"? One that says stuff like: "Be a good boy. Don't kill SH*T! Leave your neighbors alone! Get that goofy turban off your damn head!"

[figment]

Anyone tracking this?
Russia: Explosives Found in Jet Wreckage

only thing I could dig up on commincations from the Al-Islambouli brigades...

Communiqué from Al-Islambouli Brigades

[figment]

Originally Posted by dB

It's not been an encouraging study.

I have done the same and found similar problems. I spoke with a Muslim friend about it and he said it was an interpretation issue. Same arguments that are used to promote agendas in the Bible...He indicated that study of the Qur'an was intended for scholars only and they teach it to their congregations. The Qur'an
The Holy Quran

and the
Sunnah
are used.

The Five Pillars of Faith

Islam Explained

[dB]

Originally Posted by figment

He indicated that study of the Qur'an was intended for scholars only and they teach it to their congregations.

I've heard the same. That's a red flag in my mind.

[figment]

Arab opinions of the US are at an all-time low

[Baketech]

Originally Posted by figment

Arab opinions of the US are at an all-time low

What a coincidence...

[ER]

Originally Posted by dB

I've heard the same. That's a red flag in my mind.

I'll go a step further and point out that the majority of the Muslim world is illiterate and most of those who can read don't have access to the Koran. So, most are being taught what to believe from the ruling powers in their nations.

Since this is a political thread, I'll get back on track. The majority of the Muslim world is sympathetic to the cause of the terrorists we fight. They're working night and day to hit us again. They want nukes. Iran and/or N.Korea might be sympathetic to their cause. That's a scary though.

[Johnny Diablo]

Originally Posted by dB

I've heard the same. That's a red flag in my mind.

Not that I agree with the idea of only Scholars knowing the Koran is scary but lets play into the notion that in the hands of a non scholar things get misinterpreted. Take for instance fundamentalist Christians. I believe Religion books should be interpreted....used as a how and why not for literal when and where.

Fundamentalist Christians are word for word Christians. An example the Jehovah Witness. Predicted the end of the world numerous times based on calculations of numbers mentioned in the bible. For years preaching that only 4 times 40 something chosen people were allowed into heaver as written in the bible. ( A specific number that the congregation now exceeds). Believing that there literally was an Adam and Eve and the world created in 7 sun up sun down days.

This is what you get when written word gets misinterpreted. You can’t take the bible word for word but must take it in context.

Take the Gospel according to John which is popularly discussed about the end of the world. His book of revelations was written cryptically so he could get his message of the island he was exiled to.

While in Ephesus, by order of the Roman emperor Domitian, John was exiled to an island called Patmos. In what is known as the cave of the Apocalypse (located on this island), the sacred text of the book of Revelation was given to the apostle John by Jesus (it is here that John recorded what is written in the New Testament book of Revelation.) Other New Testament books accredited to John are the Gospel of John, along with 1st, 2nd and 3rd John.

In short. Religion just for Scholars is bad. Religion without some Scholarly input also bad. Become a Scholar always good. Where were we going?

[ER]

Originally Posted by figment

Arab opinions of the US are at an all-time low

This pretty much supports what I was saying. Most in that region of the world get their news, education, and information from one source - the Government. It's not going to be a coincidence that if those that rule to countries hate us, the people will as well.

[figment]

Originally Posted by ER

They want nukes. Iran and/or N.Korea might be sympathetic to their cause. That's a scary though.

I'm pretty sure they already have nuclear weapons that are already here.

[ER]

Originally Posted by figment

I'm pretty sure they already have nuclear weapons that are already here.

Yeah, you're probably right. I can only hope that our intelligence agencies are fighting a completely different war from the one we see in the media.