[ondablade]

Hi all. I've not posted for just over a year having grown tired of the abuse by the resident hit squad which followed the posting of anything which didn't accord with bushite Republican dogma.

I've looked in at the group now and then, it seems things have not changed - still the same squad ploughing the same worn old furrow: steadily losing ground and credibility, but still frantically closing down by fair or mostly foul means anybody who might suggest that the emperor is wearing no clothes. The dissenting voices are tolerated provided they keep their heads down and stay away from serious discussion of the issues.

It's a pity it's not possible to run a constructive debate here on the rights and wrongs of the Bush Administration's (and indeed the alternatives') motives and policies, but in that regard it's maybe a microcosm of broader situation in the US today - the right (a bit of a misnomer in that there's no left in the normal sense this scenario, 'left' is just another term used by those in power to trigger historically conditoned responses and so discredit opponents) is simply hell bent on control, and has for quite some time been acting in exactly the same manner as the group on this forum.

There's lots I could write in justification, but it's maybe enough to say that the Administration's stock has not exactly risen in the past year, has it??? The game right now it's crystal clear is to deny all wrong doing and error (speak the untruth enough times and people are sure to believe you), and to hang on to power at all costs and by all means.

It's meanwhile to hell with the ideals on which Democracy is based (due process, open debate, respect for the views and freedoms of others), the true interests of the American people, the Middle East, the International community and anybody else who might stand in the way.

The pity of it all is that there are very real and very genuine threats and problems in the world which require effective responses.

Trouble is they need handling with rather more sophistication than the clumsy, narrowly self interested, incompetent, naievely fundamentalist/ideological and militaristic flailings of the present Administration (which has so far worsened rather than improved the conditions for people in Iraq, the terrorist threat, the risk to oil supply, the ecomony and so on) if they are to be effectively untangled.

The reason for this post is that having watched the marches pre the republican convention in New York I'm just so so so pleased to see the country levering itself out from under the atmosphere of intimidation created by the Administration post 9/11 - where to question the leadership was unpatriotic, and where the temptation was to give in to the urgings for extreme responses.

The country I thought I knew from when I lived in the US for a while in the 80s it seems is coming to life again.

There are going to be more problems from the terrorists, right now I'm just hoping that if something happens that it won't produce another rightwards lurch like the last - that people have seen that there are no simple knee jerk responses to the problems of America and of the world - that in the end we're all in it together......

Well done the guys who feel there's another more enlightened way, keep on believing!!!!!

[ER]

Originally Posted by ondablade

Trouble is they need handling with rather more sophistication than the clumsy, narrowly self interested, incompetent, naievely fundamentalist/ideological and militaristic flailings of the present Administration (which has so far worsened rather than improved the conditions for people in Iraq, the terrorist threat, the risk to oil supply, the ecomony and so on) if they are to be effectively untangled.

Unbelievable. No more torture, rape, oppression, and control from Saddam's regime and the people of Iraq are now worse off? It's hard to take anything else you said in your post seriously...

I used to appreciate your posts even if I disagreed with your point of view. I would hope that you would remember that I wasn't one to ever lay personal attacks on the site either, so perhaps you'll take it constructively when I tell you to grow thicker skin. Welcome back.

[ConqSoft]

Originally Posted by ondablade

Hi all. I've not posted for just over a year

It's a shame to end a perfectly good record like that.

[figment]

He has'nt woke up yet

[BDA116]

Originally Posted by ER

Unbelievable. No more torture, rape, oppression, and control from Saddam's regime and the people of Iraq are now worse off? It's hard to take anything else you said in your post seriously...

I used to appreciate your posts even if I disagreed with your point of view. I would hope that you would remember that I wasn't one to ever lay personal attacks on the site either, so perhaps you'll take it constructively when I tell you to grow thicker skin. Welcome back.

I have a personal freind that has been back home to his country twice now this year, when he couldnt return since 1991.
The people there are happy, well off, have money, aren't scared, and are just as sick and tired of the foreign terrorists as we are.
He was able to see his remaining family - a couple brothers and his mother - without being executed himself. Every time he hears or reads this kind of bullshit, he tells the morons exactly what the truth is.
I'll take his word any day over the flaming left wing nut job.

[bwhip]

Originally Posted by ConqSoft

It's a shame to end a perfectly good record like that.

[rocket]

Originally Posted by ondablade

Hi all. I've not posted for just over a year having grown tired of the abuse by the resident hit squad which followed the posting of anything which didn't accord with bushite Republican dogma.

I've looked in at the group now and then, it seems things have not changed - still the same squad ploughing the same worn old furrow: steadily losing ground and credibility, but still frantically closing down by fair or mostly foul means anybody who might suggest that the emperor is wearing no clothes. The dissenting voices are tolerated provided they keep their heads down and stay away from serious discussion of the issues.

It's a pity it's not possible to run a constructive debate here on the rights and wrongs of the Bush Administration's (and indeed the alternatives') motives and policies, but in that regard it's maybe a microcosm of broader situation in the US today - the right (a bit of a misnomer in that there's no left in the normal sense this scenario, 'left' is just another term used by those in power to trigger historically conditoned responses and so discredit opponents) is simply hell bent on control, and has for quite some time been acting in exactly the same manner as the group on this forum.

There's lots I could write in justification, but it's maybe enough to say that the Administration's stock has not exactly risen in the past year, has it??? The game right now it's crystal clear is to deny all wrong doing and error (speak the untruth enough times and people are sure to believe you), and to hang on to power at all costs and by all means.

It's meanwhile to hell with the ideals on which Democracy is based (due process, open debate, respect for the views and freedoms of others), the true interests of the American people, the Middle East, the International community and anybody else who might stand in the way.

The pity of it all is that there are very real and very genuine threats and problems in the world which require effective responses.

Trouble is they need handling with rather more sophistication than the clumsy, narrowly self interested, incompetent, naievely fundamentalist/ideological and militaristic flailings of the present Administration (which has so far worsened rather than improved the conditions for people in Iraq, the terrorist threat, the risk to oil supply, the ecomony and so on) if they are to be effectively untangled.

The reason for this post is that having watched the marches pre the republican convention in New York I'm just so so so pleased to see the country levering itself out from under the atmosphere of intimidation created by the Administration post 9/11 - where to question the leadership was unpatriotic, and where the temptation was to give in to the urgings for extreme responses.

The country I thought I knew from when I lived in the US for a while in the 80s it seems is coming to life again.

There are going to be more problems from the terrorists, right now I'm just hoping that if something happens that it won't produce another rightwards lurch like the last - that people have seen that there are no simple knee jerk responses to the problems of America and of the world - that in the end we're all in it together......

Well done the guys who feel there's another more enlightened way, keep on believing!!!!!

Yawn

[Tornado bait]

When did Michael Moore join?

[ondablade]

I didn't post intending to stay around (on the basis that nothing much has changed round here - as witnessed by most of the replies I've gotten), but a very genuine thanks for the welcome ER.
I just thought it appropriate to signal the pleasure around here at the developments I mentioned - mostly to encourage the very rapidly increasing number now deciding to speak out.
No hope whatsoever of getting through to the hit squad, so no point engaging with them....

[ER]

Originally Posted by ondablade

I didn't post intending to stay around (on the basis that nothing much has changed round here - as witnessed by most of the replies I've gotten), but a very genuine thanks for the welcome ER.
I just thought it appropriate to signal the pleasure around here at the developments I mentioned - mostly to encourage the very rapidly increasing number now deciding to speak out.
No hope whatsoever of getting through to the hit squad, so no point engaging with them....

If you have the desire to debate/discuss current events then by all means, stick around. You'll just have to shrug off or ignore personal attacks as you receive them. I'm sure you've been to enough message boards to figure that out.

Seriously though, while I will probably disagree with most of what you write, your crack about the Iraqi people makes it hard to take anything else seriously. There is an obvious discussion to be had as to whether or not Bush's actions have been good or bad, this or that, etc, etc. In this election year for us, it's either him or Kerry, an ultra-left winger who's promised to give the UN waaaaaaaay too much say in our national defense. Don't forget his idea of "fair-taxation", which amounts to shifting more and more of the costs of running this country onto a smaller and smaller percentage of the population. He thinks big Government is good and he supports the Liberal agenda of bringing more and more people into dependency on it (i.e., socialized medicine).

Bush doesn't represent 100% of the ideals of your typical Conservative/Libertarian. He's been spending like a Liberal and he's caved to politicians and lobbies (like the NEA). But if the defense of our nation and taking the fight to the terrorists are the most important thing to you, then I believe Bush has clearly shown that he takes the threat seriously and is prepared to meet it.

[Proto]

Originally Posted by ER

or Kerry, an ultra-left winger

[CBRVFR]

While I like to read everyone's opinion, and am curious as to how people in other parts of the world view our elective process, I think it's a bit odd that they think they really know what's happening here.

What's it based on? Media coverage? Whose? Does anyone think there is a source of information that is neutral and unbiased? Or are you only reading opinion that applauds your own views?

I guess I lack the brass to offer an opinion regarding the elected leader of another country, or voting advice.

In the meantime, onda, you riding bikes at all?
And Proto - love the lotus avatar.

[Zeeman]

Originally Posted by CBRVFR

While I like to read everyone's opinion, and am curious as to how people in other parts of the world view our elective process, I think it's a bit odd that they think they really know what's happening here.

What's it based on? Media coverage? Whose? Does anyone think there is a source of information that is neutral and unbiased? Or are you only reading opinion that applauds your own views?

Most (if not all) our views are based one the general media - my personal news outlet is News Radio (you can listen on line) and find it about as neutral as I dare for. They broadcast several services form aorund the world, including NPR (USA) BBC (UK) Deutsche Welle (SP?) (Germany) Holland National Radio (not sure of name), our own newsradio service and possibly a few others I have missed. I find that this does give me a pretty good idea of what is going on in the world, and the various viewpoints.

I don't rely solely on Micheal Moore for my info on US politics, although I did enjoy F9/11, I found many cracks - the one that got my goat was the fact that Australia was no mention in the "co-alition of the willing". And although I'm not proud of my country having entered into the conflict, I feel we should be given the credit of actually being involved, whether for good or bad.

As for your elective process, it's flawed, like just about all elective processes. but fo rnow, it pretty much seems to be the best we have, so until something better comes along, we all have to deal with it. Actually, in many ways, I feel your process is better than ours.
In Australia, we HAVE to vote. If you are on your honeymoon during an election, you are expected to either vote postally, or go to the Aussie consulate in the country you are in to vote.

The main drawback of this, I feel, is that you end of with a whole bunch of people who don't know what each party is up to (apart form the 30 second pre-election propoganda that each party throws at our TV screens at election time) and thus often vote Liberal or Labour simply because it is what they have done for decades, rather than because it is what they feel is best.

I have a friend of the family who only votes Liberal, she will never vote for labour because of something the labour government did about 40 years ago, yet she bitches like crazy about Prime Minister Howard joining in on the Iraqui episode, not to mention many other things, yet she will never consider changing her vote. this is just silly and so child like a view.

In the US, you don't have to vote, though this doesn't mean people with no idea of what is going on wont vote, it usually does mean that people will usually have a good reason for voting for whomever happens to be their choice.

But I digress, as for reading/ listening to reports that support my own views, I like to hear as many different views as possible. Do not misunderstand what I am about to say, it is my personal view form my limited experience, and by no means is this a firm an unchangeable view - but I have found, when in the US, that a lot of people seem to live in a bubble, they are simply not aware of anything outside of the USA. It doesn't matter how big or powerful or economically strong you are, you still should be aware of what your actions do to those around you. The news services I have seen tend mainly to be th elike sof CNN, CNBC etc. Kind of like the glossy magazines of the news world who turn "the war on Terror" into a flashy logo that spins around and does the sort of thing you expect to see on the big screen at a football grand final. It's a freaking war, people are dying, it does not need hyping up. Having said that, MOST of our news services are not too much better, though we do have some good ones on the less watched ABC and SBS networks (not commercially run)

Hence the reason I try to find out as much as possible about news articles I am interested in.

I don't think any outsider has the right to tell you how to vote, it's your country, and your decision, I hope the choice made (whatever it is) works out to be the best one for all.

Z...

[Proto]

BBC report