[QuikMike]

Originally Posted by ccwilli3

http://www.foxnews.com/story/0,2933,132709,00.html

and

http://www.foxnews.com/story/0,2933,132682,00.html

interesting yes, but as far as I'm concerned, still pure speculation and even less of a reason to go to war...we've yet to find WMD which Dubya said Iraq had...show me solid, concrete evidence of a connection between Saddam Hussein and the Al Qaida network....both of those stories are based on reports and investigations, but there is still no smoking gun....

[ccwilli3]

Originally Posted by QuikMike

we'll just have to agree to disagree on this one....

I'm guessing we'll find him anytime now...

why don't we find him? Because if we did, I think it would help kerry, so any "conspiracy threories" about the Bush administration "waiting" to break the news would be dumb. (I got an email about this just yesterday, it was laughable at best) Lets see, everyone wants our boys home, we find bin laden, kerry has flip flopped on whether or not he'd bring our guys home, but most likely, the spineless would bring them home immediately, given his record in Vietnam... So a bin laden find would benefit kerry much more than bush.

Thats why any staging or "finding" of bin laden will not happen before the election. Finding bin laden, like finding saddam, will have little to do with the presedential election. MHO, of course!

[ccwilli3]

Originally Posted by QuikMike

interesting yes, but as far as I'm concerned, still pure speculation and even less of a reason to go to war...we've yet to find WMD which Dubya said Iraq had...show me solid, concrete evidence of a connection between Saddam Hussein and the Al Qaida network....both of those stories are based on reports and investigations, but there is still no smoking gun....

We agree to disagree, and that is healthy. Promotes out of the box thinking.

Why would he be sourcing it if he didn't plan on doing something with it? Reason being, You don't put on a rubber unless you are gonna ****... (love that line from crimson tide) Why buy something expensive, if you don't intend on doing something with it?

So I guess, the anti-terror fight people would prefer to wait until we have a terrorist here stateside with a nuke, THEN do something about it? I don't directly support our actions in Iraq, I too wondered if going there was the thing to do... I don't have ANY level of security clearance, so the inside word is not shared with me at all, nor anyone here, so I can't make that call. But one thing it DID do is take the fight to them... Why fight it here when we can fight it there? Thats my $.02, thats why I am glad we are there...

[ondablade]

Well done guys, thanks for speaking out. Pleased to see we've moved another step closer to a neutral environment for political debate.

[CBRVFR]

Ondablade, I don't know if I can express this adequately, but I'll try.

I am never put off by anyone's political opinions unless it has something to do with hatred of a particular group of people.

(Except, of course the French.)

So, barring outright bigotry, when those people on the list that are true partisans let their heartfelt opinions fly, I read what they've written in the knowledge that though I might disagree with them in whole or in part, they are speaking out of their feeling for this country. Whether or not I think they're simultaneously speaking out of their ass, it's impossible for me to be offended. And I think that on the whole, most of us who like to argue about politics have a similar view.

When someone from another country is extremely critical of a group of americans who are exercising their rights as citizens, it's like a stranger interposing themselves in a family disagreement, if you know what I mean.

It would seem that they would lack the contextual information, the hands-on, eyes-on experience to validate their views, and the basic element of commitment to our country that allows us to disagree without condemning each other.

So perhaps the vehemence (and the astonishing certainty) with which you have expressed your views has something to do with the reaction you've received. I'm interested in what you've said, and I think a certain amount of criticism from the world is to be expected, but you're hardly in a position to vilify or malign half the people in the country, who are after all, doing the best they can with the limited political choices afforded us..

We might squabble among ourselves, but we'll circle the wagons if we're being attacked. (There's a nice american metaphor for you.)

[abtech]

Dave: You (as usual) have put into words what several members feel, but cannot articulate. "You can choose your friends, but you'll just have "to live" with your family". (sic: Denis Leary). I think if Ondablade was to tell the truth, he would feel very strongly about ANYONE attacking his country/city/village/lifestyle. Much of the chest pounding and spew on the political forums is based on a "hurt my family and I will hunt you down and destroy you" ethic that I have observed in nearly every person I have ever met.

Ian, although we may not share the same "political" point of view, I can assure you that you would never pay for dinner or a drink were you to make the trip over here, and that, my friend, is what it's all about . . .

[bwhip]

Abtech and CBRVFR, you both nailed it. Well done. Thanks!

[ondablade]

CBR - I don't disagree at all with you on the legitimate expression of political views, partisan or not, energetically or not.

The longstanding issue I and others had a big problem with back when I was posting regularly a bit over a year ago was the way the energetic expression of views was (without action to stop it by the site) allowed to routinely spill over into abusive and threatening attacks by a small but expremely voiceiferous group of republicans on those posting views at odds with the Bush line of the time.

It eventually became clear that the site was happy to see those posting such views shut down by whatever means. And these were views which never stooped to abuse or ridicule. I packed my bags and departed the scene because it became clear at about this time last year that the position was not going to change.

I'd basically intended to stay away and just lurk as a means of gaining a feel for US opinion, but ended up making the the strongly worded post I did last night when Proto was banned for the use of a single F**K ephitet - because I found it simply incredible that the site, having allowed the above to continue without intervention over many months last year could in his case have seen fit to act without discussion on a single misdemeanour.

It pointed clearly to the inappropriate use of power to shut down a politically dissenting voice.

If I sounded certain in my views it was because the inconsistency between this and what happened last year was for me simply blinding - from the perspective of my values (that those in positions of authority have a responsibility to exercise that authority in a fair, neutral and consistent manner) it simply could not have been allowed to pass without speaking out.

If somebody in authority on the site will publicly state that Proto was banned because the site has in my absence been operating a position where it strictly but neutrally applies a no swearing or abuse policy with expulsion for all on a first offence then I'll happily back off.

I'm not sure what you mean by the point about citizens exercising their rights. I posted not in response to anybody expressing their political views (which they of course have to be entitled to voice), but because of the above which for me was flat wrong.

The issue your post does raise is that the negative reaction of some others and indeed the failure of the site to respond was perhaps the result of a circling of the wagons along the lines you described - that those concerned are/were not necessarily Bush/republican/administration supporters, but saw the posts as anti American. If so I can understand this, although I'd have hoped for a much broader view on the part of the site.

If so I'm likewise sorry if I've come across that way, and can only say that I've repeatedly said that this is not the case - that I make a very clear distinction between America and the administration.

If the problem is criticism of the administration then perhaps some of the problem flows from some trans-Atlantic cultural differences on the matter of supporting political leaders. We don't over here automatically support the policies of our leaders just because they have been voted in, many in fact would see such a position as decidedly unhealthy in that it would in effect mean you got to say your bit at the election, and were required to put up and shut up thereafter. (too many of our politicians commit to going one direction, but then try to do something else and so need keeping in check)

If the problem is that a foreigner is felt to have no right to comment negatively on internal American or 'family' politics at all then I'm sorry, we're not going to reach agreement on that one when US actions around the world have such implications for all of our futures.

I know very well that what you're saying about visiting is true Abtech, and I value that (based on my experience of living in your country as well as our own contacts over the past few years) as not just as reflecting your own generosity but that of the ordinary people of the US too.

I can only say again that my beef is with the policies of the Bush administration, and not with the US or its people in general. That doesn't mean either that I'm a Kerry supporter, I'm so far not at all impressed at what I've seen of his campaign.

I've said it many times before and will say it again. The current times mean that all civilised nations have got to pull together to implement intelligent, co-operative and elightened policies in the face of the security, economic, climate, energy and other threats facing us all. It's not going to happen without leadership from the US, but neither is the US going to be able to solve these issues on its own. The US needs a competent administration capable of delivering the leadership needed to harness and wisely lead this alliance just as much as we need it too.

Put simply I feel the Bush administration is for a long list of reasons (most of which have been aired before) sacrificing all of our futures for a range of narrow political and commercial interests, ideologies (added after original post) and short term expediencies. I doubt that even the Republican party is ultimately going to gain from what's been happening.

Thank you for taking a constructive line .....

[CBRVFR]

Originally Posted by ondablade

The current times mean that all civilised nations have got to pull together to implement intelligent, co-operative and elightened policies in the face of the security, economic, climate, energy and other threats facing us all. It's not going to happen without leadership from the US, but neither is the US going to be able to solve these issues on its own. The US needs a competent administration capable of delivering the leadership needed to harness and wisely lead this alliance just as much as we need it too.

Hard to disagree with that..

[figment]

Originally Posted by ondablade

snip
If somebody in authority on the site will publicly state that Proto was banned because the site has in my absence been operating a position where it strictly but neutrally applies a no swearing or abuse policy with expulsion for all on a first offence then I'll happily back off.

snip

wont happen because thats not the only reason why he was banned, I dont think Conq needs to justify himself to you or anyone else about it either. I'll let him speak for himself IF he wants, but if I were him I could care less if you think its justified or not.

[ondablade]

CBRVFR As said I'm really sorry if my frustration at the situation came across as anti American.

That fine Figment, only my view. I've had my say and am backing off at this point. I can't force the site to do anything, people must simply draw their own conclusions...

[rocket]

Originally Posted by ondablade

CBRVFR As said I'm really sorry if my frustration at the situation came across as anti American.

That fine Figment, only my view. I've had my say and am backing off at this point. I can't force the site to do anything, people must simply draw their own conclusions...

Ahhh take it for what it is....the internet. Sometimes I get caught up in the vortex but most of the time it's a joke. I get a kick out of how serious we take this **** sometimes. As for Proto getting 86ed what?

I'm sure his whiny ass will find his way back here some way .

[abtech]

Although I was not personally involved in the banning of Proto, I can say that he has posted publicly on more than one occasion that he "had left the site" and was not ever coming back. This was over a year ago. Each time he would not post for a short period of time (a week or so) and then began posting again. When asked why he had said he was leaving but didn't, he never answered the question directly.

There are several other issues with him and his posts that had nothing whatsoever to do with politics. If voicing a "reasonable" political point of view were grounds for banning members, I'm certain that several current members would no longer be able to logon and post here. When I say reasonable, I mean posts not espousing hate, racial epithets, threats (remember BuffDaddy?), etc.

Several of the moderators have warned various posters when they cross this line, and if the posters ignore the warning: adios. There are a couple of people that have posted counter-logical information or pure BS or have attempted to use the site only for commercial gain and they have been shown the door. Beyond this, I can't really think of any member that was banned for having a non popular political view.

[matt232]

There have been plenty of Aussies that have expressed alternate and at time outright anti-american views which got a lot of people wound up. At last count we are all still here. Not that hard to discuss a topic, even a heated one, without getting yourself banned for outright disrespect.

[figment]

Originally Posted by matt232

There have been plenty of Aussies that have expressed alternate and at time outright anti-american views which got a lot of people wound up. At last count we are all still here. Not that hard to discuss a topic, even a heated one, without getting yourself banned for outright disrespect.

This is just my opinion of why things are the way they are.
I'm going to generalize a bit:

Most of the Aussies that post here do so in a manner that creates respect. Why? Because we have a chance to know and understand them. Their presence here is more than just a passing swipe at our government. So when they post a political comment, some may take it seriously and want to understand their POV. They also tend not to react in mock horror when they pull back a stump after saying something provocative.

[Zeeman]

Originally Posted by matt232

There have been plenty of Aussies that have expressed alternate and at time outright anti-american views which got a lot of people wound up. At last count we are all still here. Not that hard to discuss a topic, even a heated one, without getting yourself banned for outright disrespect.

Heck, I'm even a mod...

My anti-bush viewpoint is as a member of the international community, it's the American voters that decide who gets in, and they are the ones who will live with that choice. We do not have a right to interfere in "family affairs" as it was put.

However, we do have a right to express our views, as the US governments actions have ramifications that echo through the world, and I feel that Bush's decision to go to war in Iraq was a very gung ho decision. But, worse still, our own governments decision to support the Bush admin and drop in as well reminds me of the "who's the bigger fool" quote from Star Wars.

I personally feel no safer now than before the attack on Iraq. If anything, as someone who LOVES to travel this Earth, and learn things about other cultures, I feel more threatened, especially since a lot of the countries I wish to travel to are pretty much out of bounds now.

On this issue, we too, get our say this year. Our election is but a few weeks away, and I for one hope that Howard gets the ass. Unfortunately, he has been quite good for this country in terms of the economy, this makes for a very hard decision at the polls for alot of people. Howards mindless support of Bush has also brought us a prize - the "free trade agreement", which, in a nutshell, is handing over control of our airwaves to the US politicians, and gives them the right to dictate what we can watch on TV, what DVD's we can watch, and what we can (or can't) do with our X-boxes and PS2's. I'm sure there are positives in the agreement, but I haven't found any (not for us anyway).

But I digress, back to the issue at hand...

I think what a lot of us outsiders are trying to get across is, that as the most powerful nation currently on this planet, your votes have a greater impact than just yourselves, and we ask that you also consider others, once you have considered yourselves.

On another issue, with regards to Iraq, I also find it so spineless that after decades of Saddams rule, now that the Iraqi people do have some freedoms, there are militants and extremists who did not have the guts to stand up to Saddam, but now that he is out of the way, they are happy to drive car bombs into the midst of Soldiers and innocent Iraqi civilians to make there little statement.

Z...

[Bacchus]

Well said Zeeman!!!

[luvtolean]

Originally Posted by Zeeman

On this issue, we too, get our say this year. Our election is but a few weeks away, and I for one hope that Howard gets the ass. Unfortunately, he has been quite good for this country in terms of the economy, this makes for a very hard decision at the polls for alot of people. Howards mindless support of Bush has also brought us a prize - the "free trade agreement", which, in a nutshell, is handing over control of our airwaves to the US politicians, and gives them the right to dictate what we can watch on TV, what DVD's we can watch, and what we can (or can't) do with our X-boxes and PS2's. I'm sure there are positives in the agreement, but I haven't found any (not for us anyway).

What in the heck does this mean? TV is more regulated here, but you can buy any movie or PS2 game...we have lots of guys travel here on business and go on a shopping spree.

I think what a lot of us outsiders are trying to get across is, that as the most powerful nation currently on this planet, your votes have a greater impact than just yourselves, and we ask that you also consider others, once you have considered yourselves.

This I emphatically disagree with. An American should not give credence to international opinion when voting, ever or for any reason.

As was pointed out, and I do believe this from my travels, if you are not part of the "family", meaning you do not actually live in a country, you cannot hope to understand what goes on in it. The mass media, and for that matter, the alternate media, simply filters out too much information for someone in Aus to really understand what it is like here. I don't care if you visit. You have to live and work in a place for years to really understand how it works.

I enjoy hearing what people outside the US have to say about Americans (and usually find it can be traced to whatever made the headlines about America that week in the local media) but they simply do not know what is best for our country. Just like I would not presume to tell you or a Brit how they should be influenced to vote.

[Zeeman]

Originally Posted by luvtolean

What in the heck does this mean? TV is more regulated here, but you can buy any movie or PS2 game...we have lots of guys travel here on business and go on a shopping spree.

The free trade agreement, without going into too much detail, basically caps the amount of Australian made TV programs to it's current level. We will also be getting more advertising carried over form the US (loss of local acting jobs). Also, if for osme reason, the % of Aussie Aussie content drops - we have to apply to the US to let us increase it again...

As for PS2 games, DVD's etc. Currently, we actually have the support of the ACCC ( Australian Competition and Consumer Commission) with regards to buying things such as DVD players or Xboxes, and modding them to allow us to play games or movies from overseas countries (eg - the USA). Under the free trade agreement, these become outlawed. Now bear in mind, I'm not talking mods to allow the playing of pirate dmaterial, I'm talking legit products that are payed for legally. So, in other words, the US administration controls what we see.

which leads me to....

Originally Posted by luvtolean

This I emphatically disagree with. An American should not give credence to international opinion when voting, ever or for any reason.

As was pointed out, and I do believe this from my travels, if you are not part of the "family", meaning you do not actually live in a country, you cannot hope to understand what goes on in it. The mass media, and for that matter, the alternate media, simply filters out too much information for someone in Aus to really understand what it is like here. I don't care if you visit. You have to live and work in a place for years to really understand how it works.

So, basically, what oyu are saying is what right do we have to tell you what to do? none. Zero. Yet, here we are, with the possibility of the US gorvernment having more control oversome aspects of our media and entertainment than our own government... Yet, I can hardly blame the US on this one, it is our own Prime Minister who is trying to get this trade agreement through.

Secondly, I did not say to make your voting decisions based upon the outside worlds view of the US, but instead, once you have considered what is best for you, then, consider also what is best for the rest of the world, too, but by all means make your own decision.

Originally Posted by luvtolean

I enjoy hearing what people outside the US have to say about Americans (and usually find it can be traced to whatever made the headlines about America that week in the local media) but they simply do not know what is best for our country. Just like I would not presume to tell you or a Brit how they should be influenced to vote.

As do I... I especially enjoy when people make general comments about a particular nation based on the actions of slect individuals or Governments. As examples...

1 - Whilst at the Ducati factory in Bologna, Lillith and m'self were doing the tour. It was an experience I highly enjoyed, made all the more Authentic by the tour guide, a young Valentino Rossi lookalike with reasonable English - especially compared to my Italian.

His speach was similar to that of Valentino Rossi, so if you have seen Rossi in a post race interview, you will know what I mean. Anyway, whilst going through the factory, one particular gent who just happened to be form the US, made the comment "they could have given us someone who speaks proper english" . this was one of the rudest things I have heard, and some may then take this and say "those yanks are such rude, arrogant people.

Yet, I choose to look at the other 20 odd Americans in the group, who either rolled their eyes or just ignored him, and continued to enjoy the experience.

Another example. I myself..

I am not a drinker, hate beer, and have never been drunk, though possibly quite tipsy on maybe 5 occasions in my life. If I were to visit another country, and go out with locals, they would claim "those Aussies, they can't drink!!! That Zee guy wont even drink a beer!" Not really a fair way to judge an entire nation now, is it?

Also, with regards to knowing what is best for your country - what then gives G W Bush the right to tell anyone else what is best for their country? Having the most powerful military does not count as a reason... and just remember, your views on others will also be influenced by what you see on TV, which also is edited selected hi-lights.

One thing that I find chilling, and this goes for people of all nations, as I have heard thing slike this just wlaking down the street or ina cafe - is hearing things like "let's nuke them all" after a particular incedent, usually carried out by extemist groups who do dont represent the vast majority of a nation - acts of terrorism for example, in any form.

Anyway, that's enough for now, looking forward to more opinions

Z...

[luvtolean]

Originally Posted by Zeeman

So, basically, what oyu are saying is what right do we have to tell you what to do? none. Zero. Yet, here we are, with the possibility of the US gorvernment having more control oversome aspects of our media and entertainment than our own government... Yet, I can hardly blame the US on this one, it is our own Prime Minister who is trying to get this trade agreement through.

I have no idea about this agreement, but IMO, and as you're hinting, I find free trade agreements to rarely be so.

Secondly, I did not say to make your voting decisions based upon the outside worlds view of the US, but instead, once you have considered what is best for you, then, consider also what is best for the rest of the world, too, but by all means make your own decision.

To be brutally honest, and somewhat non-PC my world is the US. I hope our elected leaders do what is best for us, and I trust your leaders will work for you. (case in point, what is your government getting in return, a chance to sell us wine on the cheap creating jobs in that industry for example?)

This is not to say I don't consider foriegn policy by an administration an unimportant part of his resume(or that I don't care about humanitarian causes), quite the contrary actually. But this also does not mean I believe a Pres should bow to world opinion. Awesome foreign policy does not make a good Pres, or lead to re-election. Ask Carter.

As do I... I especially enjoy when people make general comments about a particular nation based on the actions of slect individuals or Governments. As examples...

1 - Whilst at the Ducati factory in Bologna, Lillith and m'self were doing the tour. It was an experience I highly enjoyed, made all the more Authentic by the tour guide, a young Valentino Rossi lookalike with reasonable English - especially compared to my Italian.

His speach was similar to that of Valentino Rossi, so if you have seen Rossi in a post race interview, you will know what I mean. Anyway, whilst going through the factory, one particular gent who just happened to be form the US, made the comment "they could have given us someone who speaks proper english" . this was one of the rudest things I have heard, and some may then take this and say "those yanks are such rude, arrogant people.

Or proper "American" maybe. I hate jackasses like that. I have embarassed Americans like that overseas.

Also, with regards to knowing what is best for your country - what then gives G W Bush the right to tell anyone else what is best for their country? Having the most powerful military does not count as a reason... and just remember, your views on others will also be influenced by what you see on TV, which also is edited selected hi-lights.

I thought about bringing in Bush above, but I don't really wanna go there in this thread. I am not a Bush fan anyways, so it doesn't bother me when people take shots at him. It's the logic that people use that drives me crazy. It's OK to hate the man, just don't be dishonest about it.

One thing that I find chilling, and this goes for people of all nations, as I have heard thing slike this just wlaking down the street or ina cafe - is hearing things like "let's nuke them all" after a particular incedent, usually carried out by extemist groups who do dont represent the vast majority of a nation - acts of terrorism for example, in any form.

Anyway, that's enough for now, looking forward to more opinions