[ondablade]

In response since the original thread on 'Political' has been locked.

Of course LTL, people being rude to others on this forum are always banned - see my comment a couple of paragraphs down in the original post.

Well done Conq. Shut down the debate, that's the good old Republican style these days...


Bye...

[ND4SPD]

Tick-tock.....

[ConqSoft]

Well done Conq. Shut down the debate, that's the good old Republican style these days...

Quit yer whining....

Did you READ what I said? Your views on politics, and Proto being banned are two separate subjects; which is why I closed that thread and told you to create new ones if you wanted to discuss either subject.

In case you missed it, let me paste what my reply said:


Proto being banned and your view on politics are separate subjects. If you want to discuss either, start a thread in the appropriate forum. This one is closed.

[KJ's RR]

, that's the good old Republican style these days...

And there's something wrong W/that!?!?! Remember CLINTON Was in charge when all the infidels out there came into power!!

[ConqSoft]

Further discussion here, for any who are interested:

http://forum.honda-forums.com/index....7a8a770df99578

[abtech]

DCE's account is still active. He was never banned. Obviously someone has taken an opposing view and just like they claimed everyone at .org is doing, has taken the "good ole republican view" and slammed this site, it's members and several opinions.

Come on Ian, think about it . . .

[figment]

Originally Posted by ConqSoft

Further discussion here, for any who are interested:

http://forum.honda-forums.com/index....7a8a770df99578

I was really getting sick of him using this site as his personal turlet...

[luvtolean]

Originally Posted by ondablade

Of course LTL, people being rude to others on this forum are always banned - see my comment a couple of paragraphs down in the original post.

Even Proto knew why he'd been banned though he says he hadn't been informed (I've never banned anyone, so I don't know what the mod screens for that look like), why is this so hard for you to accept?

Despite you guy's ramblings on the "other" site, it had nothing to do with not being American, or having "American" views (whatever the hell that means). Although I see a hell of a lot more us vs them (them being Americans) on that site than I see here.

[ER]

I just finished most of the thread over on the other forum. I liked Proto's comment about my response having nothing to do with the topic thread. Simply put, I wouldn't have been able to accurately describe from memory a fivilous medical lawsuit without doing a little reading and I didn't have time, so I brought up some examples from a book I had read that were not medical-related. The answer still had everything to do with the topic because it was in response to spillover's question about how a suit can be won and still be considered BS. The point was, bogus litigation is a rampant problem in our culture and doctors and insurance companies have been prime targets for a while. At any rate....

Ondablade, I'll be the first to say that I hope you get past all of this and start debating in the political forum again. You provide an intelligent, opposing point of view and I've enjoyed your PMs. In the past I've seen you get flamed and I hope you can handle it like I approach Proto and ignore the offending poster.

[ondablade]

My apologies if I got it wrong on DCE Frank, misinformation.

I slammed the site and some of its members for banning Proto (not all by any means) because of the stark contrast between the speed with which he was banned for using a single ephitet most of which was asterisks - and the utter refusal of the site over many months to respond to the ongoing stream of abuse posted against those tabling unorthodox political views during the run up and early stages of the Iraq war. This despite the problem having repeatedly being raised.

I've views on the current political situation in the US and its implications which anybody is welcome to debate provided its constructive and does not stoop to abuse - nobody has to agree with me.

I draw the line at abuse however, and at the associated flat refusal by some members to engage constructively with inputs on political topics which don't fit the Bushite dogma.

I have to in the circumstances draw the conclusion that Proto's banning amounted to the use of a technicality to get get rid of a member who had become a thorn in the side of the Bushite political orthodoxy around here.

I can agree that his posts have of late tended to perhaps be mischevious and to not amount to serious debate, but the same has for a very long time been true of much of the posting by the other side.

Seems to me that what's sauce for the goose should be sauce for the gander.

We don't have to keep on arguing over this, and I greatly regret the loss of the pleasant environment we had until these problems emerged, but as matters stand there's not much point in those of us of non mainstream political views trying to engage while the site won't act to level the playing field.

We're not wallflowers and can handle robust debate, but moderation and administration have got to rise above their personal political views if there's to be any hope of moving forward. That so far seems unlikely given the political views and composition of much that group.

It seems to me that despite for example my not posting for more than a year that the position has worsened in the interval - that behaviours have become less moderate and views have become extreme, more entrenched, and more driven by tribal values than by any sense of reality.

I'm reluctant to name names, but Conq has (and he's only one example) in the interval 'come out' - he's ditched all pretence of neutrality and now piles into the fisticuffs with absolutely no pretence at neutrality all.

He can't expect to do that, and to ten minutes later pile in with his 'I'm in charge' administrator's hat on. Or he can, but only becasue he runs the site, and because he's built a clique around him who see no incongruity in this. Some of us unfortunately do....

[luvtolean]

Whew. Ondablade, I honestly think you are struggling to explain something you don't understand here.

This site is probably fairly evenly split when it comes to politics.

Moderators don't check their political views at the door, weren't asked to, and I don't see that they need to. If we were, I would have asked to have that taken from me long ago.

I have not seen anyone banned for their political views.

I hate to drag names out but there are others here as biased as anyone against Bush that aren't banned.

I think people love to use the "clique", "mindless patriot" and other such classifications for people that believe in something you don't, though you don't understand why. That's abusive to me, I assure you. While I don't particularly find much abuse in being told to **** off, I find a lot to get angry about when someone who hasn't been here for a year tells me I'm an automaton following the lead of others. For me personally, it is as insulting as anything I have been called on the site.

There is, I think, arguably far more people mindlessly on the Bush hate wagon, than the Bush love wagon. Maybe I think this because of my location in the States that is politically totally out of control. But I leave that for others to judge.

[figment]

moved. due to political apsects.

ondablade, I really cant get behind your cause. I cant understand why you two seem to want the post here (usually only politics) anyway? Where do you go to talk about bikes?

[ConqSoft]

Just an FYI, I have no political ties at all. I've never voted. Never even been registered to vote. I don't participate in political discussions much at all, other than to post humorous pictures or jokes, about any and all politicians. So I don't give a flying **** which side of the fence people are on. Doesn't bother me one way or the other. So, as I've already said, the issue with Proto had nothing to do with politics.

[RRWANTR]

Originally Posted by luvtolean

This site is probably fairly evenly split when it comes to politics.

I actually thought I was in the minority here....

[ER]

Originally Posted by luvtolean

There is, I think, arguably far more people mindlessly on the Bush hate wagon, than the Bush love wagon. Maybe I think this because of my location in the States that is politically totally out of control. But I leave that for others to judge.

I was discussing this last night with a co-worker. The number of people voting for Kerry because they hate Bush vs. those voting for him because of his politics is something like 3 to 1, from what he said.. Whether or not that's accurate I don't know, but from my experiences it seems to be the case. Most people I see/hear/read simply say, "Anyone but Bush". Perhaps that's a convenient compaign slogan but it doesn't explain what Kerry is going to do better for us than what Bush will do.

[HondaGalToo]

Originally Posted by ER

I was discussing this last night with a co-worker. The number of people voting for Kerry because they hate Bush vs. those voting for him because of his politics is something like 3 to 1, from what he said.. Whether or not that's accurate I don't know, but from my experiences it seems to be the case. Most people I see/hear/read simply say, "Anyone but Bush". Perhaps that's a convenient compaign slogan but it doesn't explain what Kerry is going to do better for us than what Bush will do.

That may well be, but the Bush campaign has spent millions to slander Kerry, rather than to state what they will do for the country if re-elected.

I don't bother stating political opinions around here because I feel that I'm in the minority and you'll never change the minds of the righteous.

A columnist in our local rag has an excellent point when he opined that Dick Cheney and his Republican cohorts are half-terrorists, as terrorism involves creating an atmosphere of doubt and fear, and then exploiting that atmosphere to gain political ends. Recently, Cheney assured the American people that if the Democrats won the coming election, they would be viciously attacked in their homes, offices, and places of worship by terrorists. Thus, Cheney is using an atmosphere of fear for political gain, pure and simple.

Bush's tax, Social Security, drug and health plans all favor the investor class, at the expense of everyone else. The economy is a mess and the net loss of jobs has been something like 1.5 million.

Cheney and Bush want you to be more afraid of the terrorism than you might be of his policies.

Their only record-breaking performances have been in spending borrowed money, the columnist goes on to say.

That's it for me. I'm in the minority here so I fully expect to be disagreed with and perhaps even flamed for my opinions. Whatever.

[Bacchus]

Alright HGToo! I just don't get why so many voters don't see these realities.

And ER, I don't think Kerry or anyone else even half qualified could cause as much damage as Bush has - sorry, my $ .02...

[CBRVFR]

Originally Posted by HondaGalToo

That may well be, but the Bush campaign has spent millions to slander Kerry, rather than to state what they will do for the country if re-elected.........<snip>........That's it for me. I'm in the minority here so I fully expect to be disagreed with and perhaps even flamed for my opinions. Whatever.

Eloquently put, and I agree with much of it. The problem is that Kerry is a crap candidate as well.

'Round and 'round the campaign goes,
I'm gonna go into the ballot box holding my nose,
The 2 party system in this country blows.

And nobody flames the Honda Gals !!

[deez]

HG2 very, very nice post.

Ondablade's comments hit home because I too got called names and flamed by people that know who they are. Hell anyone that didn't agree with this war got flamed. I still haven't read where we've found any WMD
I've just come to expect that bs here, and I just stay out of it.

[BDA116]

Originally Posted by HondaGalToo

That may well be, but the Bush campaign has spent millions to slander Kerry, rather than to state what they will do for the country if re-elected.

This is EXACTLY what the dems have been doing for years, and is currently doing nothing but slandering. They can't run on what kerry would do if elected because not even HE knows.

Originally Posted by HondaGalToo

A columnist in our local rag has an excellent point when he opined that Dick Cheney and his Republican cohorts are half-terrorists, as terrorism involves creating an atmosphere of doubt and fear, and then exploiting that atmosphere to gain political ends. Recently, Cheney assured the American people that if the Democrats won the coming election, they would be viciously attacked in their homes, offices, and places of worship by terrorists. Thus, Cheney is using an atmosphere of fear for political gain, pure and simple.

Not surprising to find out a local reporter is spewing this, as they all want to force their views on the unsuspecting public. To use your example, kerry in particular and the dems in general have historically used scare tactics each and every election cycle. They just love to play their little card game that includes race warlords, class warlords, age warlords and on and on.

Originally Posted by HondaGalToo

Bush's tax, Social Security, drug and health plans all favor the investor class, at the expense of everyone else. The economy is a mess and the net loss of jobs has been something like 1.5 million.

The government shouldn't even be in the health care business, and the Social Security benefits that the Bush administration put into place actually hurt the wealthier senior citizens. Look at the facts, not the hype.
The tax cut helps only the rich? Again an old, tired tag line from the dems. Every single taxpayer is paying less. The only people it didn't help are those that don't pay any taxes at all. It also added more people to the group that pays no taxes at all. Take a look at the following table, this is the effective Federal Income tax rate for the following 20% divisions.
'01 '02 '03 '04
Lowest Quintile -5.6 -5.6 -5.8 -5.7
Second Quintile 0.3 0.4 -0.2 -0.1
Middle Quintile 3.8 3.9 3.3 3.5
Fourth Quintile 7.2 7.3 6.5 6.6
Highest Quintile 16.3 15.8 14.4 14.2
The bottom 40% of earners pay nothing, and are actually a huge draw on those that do pay income taxes. Yes, the rate decrease is higher as you go up a step in wage earners, as is the rate they actually pay.

Are you sure you want to stand by those employment numbers? Just because some dem class warlord stated them at some point? Here are some cold, hard facts straight from the BLS website: The establishment survey showed that in January 2001 there were 132,388,000 employed workers, contrast that with their today figure of 131,475,000 employed workers, and you get 913,000. Hardly the number kerry's minions are spewing. But wait, there's more. The household survey showed that in January 2001 there were 136,000,000 employed workers, while the current number is at 139,681,000 employed workers. That is a POSITIVE difference of 3,681,000 workers.
What is the difference? Well the establishment survey is the old, non-effective method of gathering data where a small number of known establishments are polled on their monthly jobs data. The household survey is the newer survey where they actually call homes and ask how many people are of working age and how many have a job.
The establishment survey is the very table the dems have been using for years, as it has always shown employment at a lower number than is actually accurate. With their survey, one could leave an establishment job and go to work for a new small business - or start his/her own business, and would be counted as a lost job, although that individual is actually employed.
The establishment survey does NOT take into account small businesses, nor does it take into account medium sized businesses less than two years old. It also does not count one single self-employed individual. Guess which makes up the vast majority of employment in the U.S. - small and self business or large establishment business?
Oh, and the average hours worked per week is 33.8 while the average hourly wage has is at $15.77, while the 2001 numbers were 34.0 and $14.53, respectively - according to the establishment survey.
In short, the "Millions of lost jobs" myth the kerry krusaders loves to push is a deliberate lie on their behalf, and is flat out untrue. There are more workers employed today than there were when Bush took office.
Anyway, it's like you said, no one is gonna change the minds of the righteous, no matter how much fact is out there.
I'm just sick of the deliberate lying the dems constantly do to try to scare people into believing it is worse than it really is.

Nothing wrong with making your own decision and having your own viewpoint, just make sure it is actually comprised of fact rather than partisan hype.
Not flaming, just responding.

[SuperDave]

[quote=BDA116]In short, the "Millions of lost jobs" myth the kerry krusaders loves to push is a deliberate lie on their behalf, and is flat out untrue. There are more workers employed today than there were when Bush took office.
[quote]

BDA's absolutely right (as always and never disagree) Walmart, McDonald's, Taco Bell are seeing more workers than ever before.

Where do you pull these "facts" from anyway? Is there some sort of Republican database that you tap into? Are you on the campaign payroll?Your allegiance to the Republican party is downright scary. I'm serious, SCARY! BTW, YOU are one of the worst offenders in political threads, Proto had nothing on you. Your replies/responses in Political topics have always been harsh and insulting. God forbid if someone didn't agree with you and the Republican Party.

To offer debate and opinion (which EVERYONE is entitled to) is one thing, but to have always taken the "I'm right, and everyone else is a freakin moron", has gotten old. And no, I'm not talking about your last reply, you know what I'm referring to.

BTW, I agree with CBRVFR.

[BDA116]

[quote=SuperDave][quote=BDA116]In short, the "Millions of lost jobs" myth the kerry krusaders loves to push is a deliberate lie on their behalf, and is flat out untrue. There are more workers employed today than there were when Bush took office.

BDA's absolutely right (as always and never disagree) Walmart, McDonald's, Taco Bell are seeing more workers than ever before.

Where do you pull these "facts" from anyway? Is there some sort of Republican database that you tap into? Are you on the campaign payroll?Your allegiance to the Republican party is downright scary. I'm serious, SCARY! BTW, YOU are one of the worst offenders in political threads, Proto had nothing on you. Your replies/responses in Political topics have always been harsh and insulting. God forbid if someone didn't agree with you and the Republican Party.

To offer debate and opinion (which EVERYONE is entitled to) is one thing, but to have always taken the "I'm right, and everyone else is a freakin moron", has gotten old. And no, I'm not talking about your last reply, you know what I'm referring to.

BTW, I agree with CBRVFR.

BOO!! Scared again? Your allegiance to the liberals is more scary than any terrorist threat, period.
Republican database? Hardly. It is all available to anyone that would like to open their eyes and look. If you actually cared about the truth you could check out the bls, irs, cbo websites among MULTIPLE others. None of which is controlled by any Republican, so put away your tin hat.
If you had even the slightest clue you would know that my political alignment was more Libertarian than anything else, but typical of a liberal anyone that doesn't align with you must be labeled and you guys always use the evil Republican label, when the fact is the liberals are the most evil and largest threat to our system.
Of course, I expect you to check your facts and use them about as much as Rather, CBS and every other kerry krusader.