[ondablade]

The following struck me as especially relevant given the growing unwillingness of people to listen to others, and to engage in political and world affairs for the greater good:

‘In a world so utterly confused and violent, where there is every form of revolt and a thousand explanations for these revolts, it is hoped that there will be social reformation, different realities and greater freedom for man.

In every country, in every clime, under the banner of peace, there is violence; in the name of truth there is exploitation, misery; there are starving millions; there is suppression under great tyrannies, there is much social injustice.

There is war, conscription and the evasion of conscription. There is really great confusion and terrible violence; hatred is justified (excused), escapism in every form is accepted as the norm of life.

When one is aware of all this, one is confused, uncertain as to what to do, what to think, what part to play. What is one to do? Join the activists or escape into some kind of inward isolation? Go back to the old religious ideas? Start a new sect, or carry on with one’s own prejudices and inclinations?

Seeing all this, one naturally wants to know for oneself what to do, what to think, how to live a different kind of life.

……….There is the difficulty that one’s brain functions in the old habits, like a gramaphone record playing over and over again. While the noise of that tune, of that habit is going on, one is not capable of listening to anything new.

The brain has been conditioned to think in a certain way, to respond according to our culture, tradition and education; that same brain tries to listen to something new and is not capable of it. That is where our difficulty is going to lie.

……….We repeat the same pattern, the same ideas and physical habits, over and over agin, so we never catch anything fresh.

I assure you that one can put aside the old tape, the old way of thinking, feeling, reacting, the innumerable habits one has. One can do it if one really gives attention. If the thing one is listening to is deadly serious, tremendously important, then one is bound to listen so that the very act of listening will wipe out the old.’

'If you are really serious (about trying to change things for the good), then when you look the old momentum comes to an end.’

Excerpt from Chapter 1, 'The Act of Looking' by J. Krishnamurti, ‘The Impossible Question’ (1972)

[Baketech]

We live in the least violent times in recorded human history....and there is more political engagement now than ever....

[figment]

Originally Posted by Baketech

We live in the least violent times in recorded human history....and there is more political engagement now than ever....

I think his post needs some more work. It borders on religion. Its easy to look at the "troubles" of others and not work on your own issues. Often times the things you dislike in others are the very things you need to focus on

[johnnycrash]

Originally Posted by Baketech

We live in the least violent times in recorded human history....and there is more political engagement now than ever....

As far as the political engagement: it seems America (or at least the tiny cross-section I come into daily contact with) is very polarized right now. It seems that if I bring up any mention of politics it immediately approaches a shouting match. People are either so pro-left or pro-right that they won't even consider open-minded dialogue on any of the "hot" topics (mainly the Iraq war).

Then again maybe I am missing the entire point - I did get pretty drunk last night and am functioning on only a few hours sleep.

[QuikMike]

Originally Posted by johnnycrash

As far as the political engagement: it seems America (or at least the tiny cross-section I come into daily contact with) is very polarized right now. It seems that if I bring up any mention of politics it immediately approaches a shouting match. People are either so pro-left or pro-right that they won't even consider open-minded dialogue on any of the "hot" topics (mainly the Iraq war).

Then again maybe I am missing the entire point - I did get pretty drunk last night and am functioning on only a few hours sleep.

I tend to agree with that statement, crash...It seems to me that in politics, there is no middle ground...it's almost as if you have to choose a side...I think we have to realize that being the leader of the free world is not an easy job and everybody will critique your every move...you have a section of folk that want to see failure from the president(no matter who is in the chair at the time) and a section of folk who want him to suceed either for their own good or the good of the country....the old adage says,"you can please some of the people all of the time and all the of the people some of the time, but you cannot please all of the people all of the time"....I think that sums up politics perfectly...no matter who wins in November, he has a tough road to walk with plenty of obstacles to overcome...whomever wins, I'd like to see them work to help improve America first, the world second...we have a bevy of problems here and so far to this point, all of the focus has been on the war on terror...America has problems that need to be addressed and it seems as if those issues are not being brought to the forefront right now...maybe the next debate will shed some light onto this issue....we'll see..

[luvtolean]

Originally Posted by QuikMike

I tend to agree with that statement, crash...It seems to me that in politics, there is no middle ground...

CURRENTLY in American politics there is no middle ground...it is a new phenomena.

Senators and House members used to vote their conscience. Now they vote their party. The demos have for some reason been particularly bad about that lately...

On topic, bah, new age psycho-babble. All the man is really saying is that change is hard. Duh.

No matter how cognizant the realization, you can't change the ways of man, and therefore this is nothing but mental masturbation. Nothing wrong with doing that other than it is important, in my practical outlook, to actually say this stuff for a reason. Change for the sake of change is as mindless as sitting still.

And it certainly doesn't apply to voting Dubya out, which considering your recent posts ondablade, seems to be what you imply.

[ondablade]

I’m no Bush supporter, but my posting the piece was not remotely partisan.

It’s far from psycho babble, but most won’t want to take it on board. Krishnamurti is saying that the solution to our problems is for people (on both sides of whatever issue) to back off. To drop the hubris and the greed, and to start listening. To drop the mistaken view that winning at the expense of the other guy is free of negative consequences. To stop trying to force their views down the other’s throats, and instead to truly listen and hear what the other is saying as a prelude to really looking for win/win solutions.

And most fundamentally of all that if we would just reposition our heads so that we were deadly serious about addressing the problems (as opposed to just wanting to use them for personal, party, tribal, national or whatever gain and points scoring), that the conditoning which separates the differing sides would just fall away.

You’ve only got to think about how humanity would pull together to try to find a solution if faced with the threat of some sort of global catastrophe, or how communities pull together when faced with natural disasters to see that this is true.

The trouble is that historically it’s taken a massive threat to shock the players in any given situation out of their greed and hubris – to convince them all that there isn’t more in it for one or other of them if they go with a solo run, or to shock them into the realisation that they’ve got to end the ego driven game playing because they truly can’t do it on their own…

The converse is that negative behaviours of this sort can only exacerbate the problems we face. i.e. that the polarisation in political and international affairs we’ve seen develop in the past few years can only lead to disaster.

You can argue that this is human nature. It's certainly been the prevailing animal instinct; but it's not necessarily human nature and the point is that with education, right mindedness and good leadership we can all start moving in the right direction.

[ER]

Originally Posted by ondablade

I’m no Bush supporter, but my posting the piece was not remotely partisan.

It’s far from psycho babble, but most won’t want to take it on board. Krishnamurti is saying that the solution to our problems is for people (on both sides of whatever issue) to back off. To drop the hubris and the greed, and to start listening. To drop the mistaken view that winning at the expense of the other guy is free of negative consequences. To stop trying to force their views down the other’s throats, and instead to truly listen and hear what the other is saying as a prelude to really looking for win/win solutions.

And most fundamentally of all that if we would just reposition our heads so that we were deadly serious about addressing the problems (as opposed to just wanting to use them for personal, party, tribal, national or whatever gain and points scoring), that the conditoning which separates the differing sides would just fall away.

You’ve only got to think about how humanity would pull together to try to find a solution if faced with the threat of some sort of global catastrophe, or how communities pull together when faced with natural disasters to see that this is true.

The trouble is that historically it’s taken a massive threat to shock the players in any given situation out of their greed and hubris – to convince them all that there isn’t more in it for one or other of them if they go with a solo run, or to shock them into the realisation that they’ve got to end the ego driven game playing because they truly can’t do it on their own…

The converse is that negative behaviours of this sort can only exacerbate the problems we face. i.e. that the polarisation in political and international affairs we’ve seen develop in the past few years can only lead to disaster.

You can argue that this is human nature. It's certainly been the prevailing animal instinct; but it's not necessarily human nature and the point is that with education, right mindedness and good leadership we can all start moving in the right direction.

Good post ondablade. IMHO, you're almost dancing around the answer to why we (the US) have the bloated Government and assorted problems with it that we do today.

Politics -- like religion -- is definitely one theme in which it's difficult to have a calm discussion or debate. To argue for or against a set of issues will usually leave you questioning someone else's judgement when they disagree with you. Since few people can take that without getting defensive, well....you get the point.

But since today's voter is almost always voting for the politician who will try and turn the county towards a set of values with which the voter resonates, it's even more personal because if you lose and someone else wins, the direction the country turns may start to benefit that person, often at your expense. So, it becomes a "what can I do for me" thing instead of a, "what can we do to better the country"?

I can't say it enough - a free Republic or Democracy will only last as long as it takes for the majority of voters to turn to voting themselves kickbacks from the Government. Once that happens, power-hungry politicians will start to pander to that greed in order to obtain those powerful positions, and those voters will continue to vote for the person who promises them the most. You can't blame only the politicians, because if there wasn't the vote to be had, they wouldn't be pandering to it. We're the ones who elect them and we're the ones who have shown that we can be bought. IMHO, the US is well on its way down the spiral and it's not coming back. I feel that the core issue to this problem is morality, since in order to vote yourself gifts from the national treasury, you have to be blind to the fact that when you plunder it, you're stealing from everyone who supports it.

[ER]

That reminds me, I came across this in Boortz's daily column last week:

Somewhere, sometime over the past few weeks I ran across the following question: "Do you ever wonder if the average Joe in ancient Rome knew he was witnessing the collapse of an empire?" Let's just change the wording a bit. Do you ever wonder if the average Joe in the United States knows that he is witnessing the collapse of a great Republic?

Probably not.

[luvtolean]

Originally Posted by ondablade

You’ve only got to think about how humanity would pull together to try to find a solution if faced with the threat of some sort of global catastrophe, or how communities pull together when faced with natural disasters to see that this is true.

The trouble is that historically it’s taken a massive threat to shock the players in any given situation out of their greed and hubris – to convince them all that there isn’t more in it for one or other of them if they go with a solo run, or to shock them into the realisation that they’ve got to end the ego driven game playing because they truly can’t do it on their own…

I don't think this has ever happened, hence my fairly casual dismissal of the guy's writings. Maybe you have an example?

[Baketech]

You can argue that this is human nature. It's certainly been the prevailing animal instinct; but it's not necessarily human nature and the point is that with education, right mindedness and good leadership we can all start moving in the right direction.

I would imagine that the funeral pyre of the human beings killed in the name of "rightmindedness" could be seen from neighboring planets....

Few things scare me more as when people start using that word to describe their thinking....

[ondablade]

I don’t have the answers, but people have two sides – the self centered red in tooth and claw animal side, and the empathetic or loving side which with work we can extend to all and not just our immediate families or whatever.

Where pulling together is concerned both come into play. Most decide to join in on the basis of the degree of coincidence between their self interest and whatever group action is under consideration. Some few decide on the basis of a heart felt wish to help their fellow man. Leaders seeking to harness people behind actions have learned to play to both, unfortunately often either misguidedly or for their own ends.

I think LTL that there are lots of examples, ranging from nations holding together to defend themselves, to individuals sacrificing themselves for the greater good, to club, church, charitable and other organisations. The trouble is that the intentions of those seeking change range through all shades of the above from plain self interest, through the misguided but well intentioned to the very rare wisely well intentioned.

The outcomes range from the rare good to sometimes little harm to often Baketech’s piles of corpses. And as he says most claiming 'rightness' have delivered piles of corpses. The corpses it seems to me follow very quickly from the attempts by religions, nations, social movements, charismatic leaders and so on to move to from open discussion in an attempt to convince others that a given way is right to freezing their ideas in an ideology and attempting to force this (their version of rightness) on their fellow man without regard for their views or feelings.

The one thing it seems you can be sure of is that once there is manipulation, coercion, lying, setting of groups of people against each other, intellectual, social or moral superiority (a mask for fear and insecurity), attempts to force through ‘rightness’ or whatever that these problems inevitably follow.

There are no pat answers to what’s right, no panacea, no ‘–ism’ which has the answers other than that the essential is the above love, empathy or whatever you want to call it combined with a consequent humilty which will never seek to force force solutions on others. Perhaps as well enough insight and courage so that fear, distrust , manipulation and the need to prop fragile egos are not allowed to take charge, and too many errors are not made.

Going back to Krishnamurti. He goes on to say (in common with the higher spiritual as opposed to religious traditions) that there is only one way to secure right outcomes: ‘that is through negation to come to the positive, through understanding what is not , to find out what it is’. i.e. don’t build grandiose ideologies and systems and try to force them on people, instead proceed step by step through dialogue and interchange, looking at outcomes and situations without the prejudice of conditioning, dumping what’s not working and sticking with and improving that which does is no matter how peculiar it looks.

He says ‘one can look at the world’s events as though they did not concern one as an individual, (i.e. selflessly) yet try to shape them, try to do something about them. ….Either one looks at the world from a particular point of view – taking a stand verbally, ideologically, committed to a particular action and therefore isolated from the rest – or one looks at this whole phenomenon as a living moving process, a total movement of which one is a part and from which one is not divided…….It is not a question of identifying oneself with the world, because one is the world. War is the result of oneself. (self centeredness, this is not just simple self interest but more the habit of seeing the world through the lens of self all the time) The violence, the prejudice, the appalling brutality that is going on, is part of oneself.’ (is the result of self centeredness)

He’s basically saying that all life is a flow, that we’re all part of that flow, and that until we recognise this and as I said before stop seeing things only from our own perspective and thinking that it’s possible to keep on winning at the expense of others without consequences we’re going to keep on ending up with the piles of corpses.

Please excuse me if this all sounds very high flown, I suppose it is. I can only say though that the answers to our problems are out there, it’s just that you have to dig a little to get to them, and that they are most definitely not contained in and run sharply against the flow of the common dogma and popular wisdom we pick up in our younger years. It’s not easy, it requires real work on the self if we are to learn to see and to change.

And maybe the most important item of all - good follows from individuals coming to see, and changing themselves - not from attempts by others to force change on them.

Many of you guys are late 20s or 30 somethings, and reaching an age where you’re maybe starting to experience some doubts about the conventional wisdom that seemed so logical when you were 20 something.

There are only two paths in life going forward from there. Either dig in and lock yourself into defending this simplistic old belief system, and end up with so much of your self invested in the old crock that eventually death is preferable to change; or open up, move on and start searching with an open mind for solutions (not confirmation that our pre-conceived views are right).

It's the single most important issue in all of our lives...