[luvtolean]

Let's ban fatty foods too. They kill more than guns, booze and smokes combined worldwide. (yes, a bit of an exaggeration but not much)

[oldfogey]

If you don't get off that bike, I'm going to force chips on you...

[Cowboy1600]

Ill repeat myself for those who are a little slow. If someone wants to eat themselvesw into an early grave so be it. If someone wants to shoot someone else with a gun, dont let them. What part dont you understand?

[luvtolean]

I understand perfectly. Funny how guns were basically banned on your isle, yet gun crime went up last year. What part of that don't YOU understand?

[figment]

Thumper : [clears throat] "If you can't say something intelligent... don't say nothing at all." -Bambi 1942

[oldfogey]

Originally Posted by figment

Thumper : [clears throat] "If you can't say something intelligent... don't say nothing at all." -Bambi 1942

Now, come on, are you proposing closing the whole site?

Oh, and LTL, not sure if that last was aimed at me (UK based) or Cowboy (Australia based). For the record, I prefer the statistic showing the low level of deaths by guns to the statistic showing that the number of gun crimes has gone up. I accept the evidence that it has gone up. For the moment, I believe that to be down to change in culture and drug-induced violence. See our conversations elsewhere.

[luvtolean]

It's just a case study. My point is simple. Banning guns is not a solution to any problem. (Edit, I did mess up, I didn't look and for some reason incorrectly remembered Cowboy as being from the UK, hence the "your isle". Gonna go get some coffee and wake up now)

If you want to do away with crime, figure out how to work on the people, because that's the only way to solve the problem. But that theory doesn't make for a good soundbite, and it implies there might actually be something amiss in the populations so politicians and short sighted thinkers world-wide find it much easier to just blame the guns.

Blame it on drugs? Fine with me. Now, tell me why people are using drugs and let's work on the real problem of drug abuse.

[figment]

Originally Posted by oldfogey

Now, come on, are you proposing closing the whole site?

dont be so hard on yourself

[oldfogey]

Originally Posted by luvtolean

It's just a case study. My point is simple. Banning guns is not a solution to any problem.

If you want to do away with crime, figure out how to work on the people, because that's the only way to solve the problem. But that theory doesn't make for a good soundbite, and it implies there might actually be something amiss in the populations so politicians and short sighted thinkers world-wide find it much easier to just blame the guns.

Blame it on drugs? Fine with me. Now, tell me why people are using drugs and let's work on the real problem of drug abuse.

Greed, loneliness, self-absorbed, ill-disciplined, short-sighted, thrill-seeking human beings.

[figment]

Originally Posted by oldfogey

Greed, loneliness, self-absorbed, ill-disciplined, short-sighted, thrill-seeking human beings.

you just summed it up. We can all go home now.

[luvtolean]

Originally Posted by oldfogey

Greed, loneliness, self-absorbed, ill-disciplined, short-sighted, thrill-seeking human beings.

Yep.

I also think the way we deal with social problems is a big contributor. We blame our parents, our government, big business anyone but ourself.

I've quoted him before but I think Covey is really on to something when he talks about the rise of social problems coinciding with the shift in "self-help" in the 50's and 60's. The old timers used to do introspection, and write a plan to work on their faults, slowly and surely.

Modern self-help is a prozac and telling yourself you're a valuable person of worth. That's bullshit. You get feelings of self-worth by making yourself a person of value! Success in family, career etc etc.

Done with the threadjack...

Love him or hate him, a vote for Kerry is a vote against guns. It is OK to think that is a small price to pay to get rid of Bush. If your right to bear arms is worth less to you than voting Bush out, I think it is certainly a valid reason to vote for Kerry. Just remember, he will be picking anti-gun Supreme Court justices, so his anti-gun policy isn't going to be easily undone as was Clinton's.

The fact remains, Kerry is RABIDLY anti-gun. And his legacy will live on in the highest court.

[Heavy-Dee]

Originally Posted by booth23

Where are the real patriots? I'm real tired of both parties. We need a man/woman of the people, someone who isn't some rich millionaire would be a good start.

This will never happen. Unless you are rich you just can't afford to campaign.

HD

[ccwilli3]

Originally Posted by Cowboy1600

Ill repeat myself for those who are a little slow. If someone wants to eat themselvesw into an early grave so be it. If someone wants to shoot someone else with a gun, dont let them. What part dont you understand?

Don't let them? Don't let them???? You can't stop any person from doing something they want. If not guns, then what? Should we stop selling and manufacturing matches because some retard might burn my house down? if someone wants to kill you man, they are gonna do it. Making guns "illegal" isn't going to stop them. You can't protect people from themselves through law. Drugs are illegal and they are everywhere. Those are meant to protect those that would use said drug who possibly wouldn't know how bad they would be for them. But we still have a problem with drugs here (and everywhere).

And you solidyfied my point exactly. Poland was taken over because of their "easy target" status. It was a stepping stone to russia, just a blip on the radar. Which is why germans themselves were disarmed prior to the war as well. Difficult for the Jews to fight back if they are unarmed, right Hitler? Hey, no resistance makes it easy right? Take a page from history and ignore it if you'd like.

And for the record, I am neither a member of the NRA nor have I ever been to anything NRA related. So what ya got now wonder from down under? Oh wait, its cowboy!

[ccwilli3]

Originally Posted by Heavy-Dee

This will never happen. Unless you are rich you just can't afford to campaign.

HD

Exactly, if a "people's person" were to try to run, he'd never make it past the first primary...

[figment]

Originally Posted by ccwilli3

So what ya got now wonder from down under? Oh wait, its cowboy!

not very "quick on the draw" is he?
dispite calling others slow. Talk about fallacious central...

Originally Posted by Cowboy1600

Ill repeat myself for those who are a little slow.

[ER]

You're just going to have to accept the fact that many non-Americans are going to view guns and gun-ownership like that. There doesn't seem to be much we can do since providing the facts about guns, gun-control, the history of gun-ownership, etc hasn't seemed to change too many minds. Furthermore, not everyone thinks that freedom is worth fighting for.

To get back on topic, yes, Kerry wants to take away more guns. His voting record shouts it clearly. He's tried to turn the attention of the NRA and gun-owners away from that by claiming to be a hunter but if half of the legislation for which he's voted had passed, there wouldn't be much gun-hunting left.

Such is the mindset of the Liberal elite. The common man just isn't smart or responsible enough to own a gun and it's the duty of politicians like Kerry and Feinstein to take them away.

[figment]

Originally Posted by ER

You're just going to have to accept the fact that many ...

a good argument I have no problem accepting. But the horse sh!t I have seen thus far makes me wanna

[ER]

Originally Posted by figment

a good argument I have no problem accepting. But the horse sh!t I have seen thus far makes me wanna

I know. The problem with the argument for gun-control is that it is inevitably based on misinformation and/or emotion. That's why you hear stuff like, "You yanks and your guns...blah blah..." or "Why do you need a gun? We don't have guns and we're fine", etc, etc. Historically, though, when a population is disarmed they suffer from more violent crimes and are more prone to developing oppressive Governments. Because our lives are so short compared to the rate of change a country might undergo in regards to losing freedoms and rights, we don't always see the problems that are forming. In other words, most people speak without bothering to look at the larger picture.

Look at the changes made in our country over the last 50-100 years. Our Government grows yearly, it confiscates more and more public land, it continues to tax its population at a higher and higher rate, and it's encroaching on more and more of the personal freedoms we should enjoy. It's involving itself in more and more areas of our lives, and now we have Government-medicine on the horizon. It's like the theory of boiling a frog in water by gradually increasing the temperature of the water rather than tossing him in a boiling pot. Because the frog won't notice the increasing temperature of the water, he won't know he's being boiled until it's too late. Your average, uneducated voter today might say something like, "You radicals and your gun-rights...we STILL live in a free country in case you didn't know" because he or she isn't aware of the change in temperature of the water and hasn't bothered to check what it was 50 years ago.

Like someone else in this thread already stated, gun-grabbers have known for some time now that you can gradually take away the rights of the Second Amendment through small, targeted acts. Ted's attempted ban on high-powered cartridges failed because it targeted too many rifle-owners in the country. They can do it through (mis)education too as they try and convince more and more kids of the supposed dangers of gun-ownership. I've read about teachers and even DOCTORS asking kids whether or not they know of any guns in their homes. It's not an effort to make ANYTHING safer; rather, it's simply an agenda.

[figment]

Originally Posted by ER

I know. The problem with the argument for gun-control is that it is inevitably based on misinformation and/or emotion.

I. REASON: THE MISSING LINK IN GUN CONTROL RHETORIC

[Baketech]

Silly rabbits...always falling in the same old snares...

When will you learn to accept that people in far away lands, reading their censored media will ALWAYS know more about your country than you can ever hope to learn from living here all your life....

[figment]

Originally Posted by Baketech

always falling in the same old snares...

please dont throw me into that briar patch! -Brer Rabbit.

Brer Rabbit hollered out, "Born and bred in the briar patch. I was born and bred in the briar patch!" And with that he skipped out just as lively as a cricket in the embers of a fire.

[Heavy-Dee]

Originally Posted by Baketech

Silly rabbits...always falling in the same old snares...

When will you learn to accept that people in far away lands, reading their censored media will ALWAYS know more about your country than you can ever hope to learn from living here all your life....

Like our media isn't censored! Well, it certianly is twisted anyway.

[figment]

Originally Posted by Heavy-Dee

Like our media isn't censored! Well, it certianly is twisted anyway.

Yep, it's biased for certain.