[sheepofblue]

Originally Posted by rocket

Bac,

You bring up these youths as if their lives were wasted but I say they died for a noble cause. To keep both you and I and our families safe in the USA. We have had no terror attacks since 9/11. This is not luck. This is because these brave US soldiers gave their lives so we can be safe. They took the fight over seas instead of letting it be waged in our streets(I.E. Israel).

They have also given the gift of freedom to Iraq. Your "for what?" comment is spitting in the faces of these noble soldiers and their families who paid the ultimate price. Some times the best gifts in life are the intangibles. I personally make it a point to thank the young men and women who serve as I'm sure you do as well.

As Kerry said it's time for Americans to unite behind the cause of freedom. If it's any comfort, now with the elections out of the way any "insurgents' in Iraq are in serious trouble.

And if this is not enough they have toppled two horrific regimes. While it might fail this has given the locals a shot at freedom. Personally I believe 50 years from now we will look back on this and see 2 countries that are prospering and peaceful (think Japan, Italy and Germany)

[Bacchus]

Originally Posted by rocket

Bac,

[b]You bring up these youths as if their lives were wasted but I say they died for a noble cause. To keep both you and I and our families safe in the USA. We have had no terror attacks since 9/11. This is not luck.

I certainly appreciate your views, as we all should appreciate one anothers' without slinging mud. Just one small problem with your view - who was responsible for 911, Saddam or Osama? Hello, I think we all just read of the most recent tape from our buddie Osama. That said, yes, I see all of the Iraq War deaths as a waste. Sadaam was the worst type of butcher, yes, but the Iraq War was not started for any other reason than revenge (bushie's daddy) and personal gain.

[SORTAFAST]

Originally Posted by Bacchus

I certainly appreciate your views, as we all should appreciate one anothers' without slinging mud. Just one small problem with your view - who was responsible for 911, Saddam or Osama? Hello, I think we all just read of the most recent tape from our buddie Osama. That said, yes, I see all of the Iraq War deaths as a waste. Sadaam was the worst type of butcher, yes, but the Iraq War was not started for any other reason than revenge (bushie's daddy) and personal gain.

First of all I truly appreciate your views as well. Regardless if Sadaam had anything to do with 911, a ruthless dictator is out of business. Put aside all the revenge and personal gains bit and look at what exactly the U.S. is doing in Iraq. As tragic as each and every life lost may be, I am truly grateful for the men and women who put their lives on the line so that someday many Iraqi citizens might enjoy the same freedoms and liberties that we enjoy here in the Good Ole' U.S.A.

[TAZ]

Originally Posted by Bacchus

... Sadaam was the worst type of butcher, yes, but the Iraq War was not started for any other reason than revenge (bushie's daddy) and personal gain.

Oh really? How exactly did Bush personally gain from the war in Iraq?
Are there not terrorists in Iraq? Aren't there terrorists just FLOCKING to Iraq even as we have this pointless debate? You just admitted that Saddam was a butcher. He is not a man deserving of being in power, and after flipping off the UN (and the US) for eleven years, we finally did something about it. We waited way too long, as I see it. The people of Iraq will be better off in ten years because Bush had the vision to remove Saddam. Just as Japan is better off after we kicked their asses, and Germany, and a number of other countries, we're once again doing good for the world.

These Islam extremists must be obliterated. I don't care how we do it, but since there are a number of them in Iraq, I think it's good that our boys in camo are where they are, killing those little Allah-loving pansies one by one, or by the dozen...as long as they're dead before they have a chance to come here.

And what revenge exactly is Bush looking for? Did his father not easily win in Iraq? Do you think Bush went back to finish the job? For that matter, shouldn't 41 have finished the job? I have no problem with removing Saddam. We gave him a chance to be a good world citizen and to not be a muderous dictator, and he couldn't manage. Good riddance.

I also thank idiots like Michael Moore, and especially Howard Stern. For all their misguided, misinformed, loudmouthed opinion, they helped Bush as much as they hurt him.

[ccwilli3]

Originally Posted by Bacchus

Easy, Einstein, because the war should never have been! It was all based on lies and deception and big business/crony crap. And now we have 1,100+ less American youths, and for what? WOW! We're really winning this war, eh? If you don't understand that (which I totally don't expect you to), then vote for Cheney in 2008.

TO be so old, I would have assumed you to be more wiser... Guess you are still angry from some wrong placed upon you earlier in your life...

Vietnam was ****ed because tight ass'd politicians didn't have the backbone to fully support our guys. They gave a half-assed attempt at supporting OUR brothers in arms there. You can't ride the fence, you gotta go all the way! How many died in vietnam again? Oh yeah, way more than 1100 good honest americans, thats right... How soon we forget. In Iraq, ff those ~1100, how many were hurt during actual warfare? How many were hurt actually fighting an "iraqi army"? Compare that to how many were hurt by some suicide bombing raghead that wanted a guarantee into Allah's heaven!?

The military was much different during vietnam, there is no comparison...

You should get out of your liberal world and see whats really going. Attempt to figure out why servicemen return from the Mid-East with sores, weird colds and other sicknesses. Its all been traced to the biological gas and contaminants they encounter while in Iraq. I guess you didn't know that because well, it isn't reported by YOUR news sources because they were never there were they? In the words of Dr. Evil, rrriiiiiiiiigggght! Take your fingers out of your ears and place them on the pulse of america's servicemen... There is lots that you don't know about what REALLY goes on.

[ccwilli3]

Originally Posted by rocket

Bac,

You bring up these youths as if their lives were wasted but I say they died for a noble cause. To keep both you and I and our families safe in the USA. We have had no terror attacks since 9/11. This is not luck. This is because these brave US soldiers gave their lives so we can be safe. They took the fight over seas instead of letting it be waged in our streets(I.E. Israel).

They have also given the gift of freedom to Iraq. Your "for what?" comment is spitting in the faces of these noble soldiers and their families who paid the ultimate price. Some times the best gifts in life are the intangibles. I personally make it a point to thank the young men and women who serve as I'm sure you do as well.

As Kerry said it's time for Americans to unite behind the cause of freedom. If it's any comfort, now with the elections out of the way any "insurgents' in Iraq are in serious trouble.

here here!

I personally go out of my way to make EVERY serviceman that I see on the streets that I am ETERNALLY grateful for their service, their sacrifice and the sacrifice of their fallen brothers!

[ccwilli3]

Originally Posted by TAZ

Oh really? How exactly did Bush personally gain from the war in Iraq?

You didn't hear!? Its all just a big conspiracy.

I am continually amazed by the liberal point of view that everything revolves around a gov't conspiracy, a conspiracy to do them in! Yet they would like a more powerful gov't to give them healthcare, childcard with more power and decision making taken away from the people!

[SuperDave]

Originally Posted by TAZ

Oh really? How exactly did Bush personally gain from the war in Iraq?
Are there not terrorists in Iraq? Aren't there terrorists just FLOCKING to Iraq even as we have this pointless debate? You just admitted that Saddam was a butcher. He is not a man deserving of being in power, and after flipping off the UN (and the US) for eleven years, we finally did something about it. We waited way too long, as I see it. The people of Iraq will be better off in ten years because Bush had the vision to remove Saddam. Just as Japan is better off after we kicked their asses, and Germany, and a number of other countries, we're once again doing good for the world.

These Islam extremists must be obliterated. I don't care how we do it, but since there are a number of them in Iraq, I think it's good that our boys in camo are where they are, killing those little Allah-loving pansies one by one, or by the dozen...as long as they're dead before they have a chance to come here.

And what revenge exactly is Bush looking for? Did his father not easily win in Iraq? Do you think Bush went back to finish the job? For that matter, shouldn't 41 have finished the job? I have no problem with removing Saddam. We gave him a chance to be a good world citizen and to not be a muderous dictator, and he couldn't manage. Good riddance.

I also thank idiots like Michael Moore, and especially Howard Stern. For all their misguided, misinformed, loudmouthed opinion, they helped Bush as much as they hurt him.

OK, Taz, let's go through history one more time.

Cheney and Wolfowitz wanted a stronger more aggressive foreign policy/doctrine, and had this drafted before Bush Jr (puppet) was even in office. They came up with the Pilot Program of Middle East Democracy, even if it took "pre-emptive strikes" to oust the dictator. Yes, they wanted Saddam (who the United States put in power and gave weapons to) to fight against our then rival Iran. They wanted Saddam out after the Iran conflict but couldn't stop who they put in power.

Are you with me so far? A plan had been in place (way before 9/11) to invade Iraq but newly elected Bush Jr couldn't just announce an invasion due to UN resolution neglect. The world would have been outraged at the US, even if the US thought removing Saddam and spreading Democracy was a good thing for all.

Along came 9/11.

Cheney, Wolfowitz, and Rumsfeld ran into Bush's office with the perfect opportunity to carry out their 2 part plan, get Saddam out, create Pilot program for Democracy. They would use "fighting the 9/11 terrorist" as their permission/battle cry to invade Iraq.

Powell pleaded with Bush to reconsider. Powell first explained that any invasion MUST be presented to the UN for support and assistance, secondly, do you really, really want to occupy Iraq? Are you prepared, Mr President, not only to overtake a country with hostile attitudes towards Americans, but occupy and stay the full term which will cost thousands of lives. Powell talked the President into just finding and destroying Bin Laden and ending Taliban existance in Afghanistan, "do not listen to Wolf, Cheney, and Rumsfeld" (leave Iraq out of the 9/11 response, since they didn't have anything to do with it).

This is no movie. This is fact, not Michael Moore bullshit.

Analyst asked to provide opinions on intelligence gathering of whether Saddam had nuclear capabilities, told the administration that NO, the confiscated material was in no way nuclear capable. No connections with nuclear weapons. Same with satellite photos of suspicous trucks, again, not bio/chemical transporters (water trucks!!!) Were these analyst who spoke up about how the Whitehouse fabricated their reports, somehow Moore fans, or future Kerry supporters? No. Although the media was very concerned at that time of being non-patriotic if they exposed these inconsistancies, they were aware of them. It's fact, we were made frightened into believing Saddam was BinLaden's loyal follower, and he's about ready to destroy the United States unless you give the President the support to go over to Iraq, destroy those WMDs, and kill all those terrorist responsible for 9/11 (lie) State of the Union Address.

Which now, we know that neither were true. No WMDs, and no terrorist connection to BinLaden (fact).

With Powell soon to be gone, Wolfy-boy and Cheney will be free to tell Bush jr exactly what to do without opposition. BTW, Rumsfeld will have to go as well, too much of a liability now (undersized troops needed, prison interrogation scandal, etc.) for the Administration.

We are not simply "fighting terrorism". That is not why we invaded Iraq. The Administration need to cleanup their mess (Saddam) and start their Democracy plan to get a foothold in the middle east, and it doesn't hurt that we now have (14) military bases now already established right next to hmmmmmmmm, oh yea, Iran!!!!

Watch Frontline's "Rumsfeld's War", "Behind Closed Doors - Wolfowitz", watch "Face The Nation", watch History Channel, read!!! It's not all Bush hating lies, there is history to how everything evolves, including the Iraq invasion. And it doesn't have anything to do with terrorism, except that it was the perfect excuse.

[Baketech]

Ted Kaczynski called....he thinks you guys are crazy...

"In a new series, the Power of Nightmares explores how the idea that we are threatened by a hidden and organised terrorist network is an illusion."

"The rise of the politics of fear begins in 1949 with two men whose radical ideas would inspire the attack of 9/11 and influence the neo-conservative movement that dominates Washington." One of them being Leo Strauss. The other is an Egyptian, Sayyid Qutb.


The Power of Nightmares


"Many neoconservatives like Paul Wolfowitz are disciples of a philosopher who believed that the elite should use deception, religious fervor and perpetual war to control the ignorant masses."

Leo Strauss: Philosophy of Deception

[figment]

Originally Posted by APTZ

[i]"In a new series, the Power of Nightmares explores how the idea that we are threatened by a hidden and organised terrorist network is an illusion."

I just imagined no planes flying in the sky for several weeks in Sept. of 2001.

Worth reading:

Why do they hate us?

[rocket]

Originally Posted by Bacchus

. That said, yes, I see all of the Iraq War deaths as a waste.

The worst thing you can say to a soldier.

Honor them.

They have occupied the terrorists.

Kept us safe.

They will never be forgotten.

It is time for Americans to unite and support them.

[dB]

I'm missing your point, APTZ.

In regards to the article linked in your second post, it's a big logical jump to say that violent Islamic Fundamentalism is a result of Sayyid Qutb witnessing Western depravity. As a Christian, my response to such things is to make sure I'm not making the same mistakes myself, not to organize like minded people into a murderous mob. There's something else in play here.

That article was apparently written by a Christian convert. You may be interested in this book, also written by a Christian convert who was once a professor of Islam at the University of Cairo...and knew Sayyid Qutb well.

[Bacchus]

Originally Posted by SORTAFAST

As tragic as each and every life lost may be, I am truly grateful for the men and women who put their lives on the line...

And I also - I certainly didn't mean for my comments to sound otherwise.

[Bacchus]

Originally Posted by ccwilli3

Vietnam was ****ed because tight ass'd politicians didn't have the backbone to fully support our guys. They gave a half-assed attempt at supporting OUR brothers in arms there. You can't ride the fence, you gotta go all the way!

Well said! There's one pretty good similarity to the Iraq war - that families have had to purchase and send over body armor for their sons and daughters in Iraq.

[Bacchus]

Originally Posted by rocket

Honor them.

I do. Please stop trying to twist my words around...

[ccwilli3]

Originally Posted by Bacchus

Well said! There's one pretty good similarity to the Iraq war - that families have had to purchase and send over body armor for their sons and daughters in Iraq.

Everyone already does have armor if they want it. There is some newer stuff that some guys are buying for themselves...

[luvtolean]

Bacchus, it does not matter your intentions.

By saying all of the deaths in Iraq are a waste, you piss on the graves of those dead soldiers. It is important to every soldier I know, that what they did means something. And that the people at home feel so too.

The few I know that went and came back feel strongly it does.

[rocket]

Originally Posted by Bacchus

I do. Please stop trying to twist my words around...

I am not "twisting" your words Bacchus. All my comments were in response to your posts. I do not share your sentiments in this case that's all. I'm only stating that we owe the men and women who serve(d) a great debt. Saying that their deaths are a waste is wrong. I know deep down you didn't mean it though.

Originally Posted by Bacchus

That said, yes, I see all of the Iraq War deaths as a waste.

[Bacchus]

Originally Posted by rocket

I know deep down you didn't mean it though.

You are absolutely correct in that assumption, sir. I definitely could have worded things a lot more delicately, but in my anger and haste I did not. No life destroyed is a waste (well, maybe an incorrigible gang-banger), but you know the point I'm trying to make as well as I. This war should have never been initiated, there should not be 1,100+ less Americans, and things are gonna get a lot worse before they improve.

That said, I am weary of the head-butting between libs and neos, and hereby (drumroll, to the applause of all of you Reps) leave the political arena. The die is cast, we are all in for a hell of another ride, and that's that. Good luck, world!

And thanks for giving me that opportunity to clarify my previous statement, rocket.























No more political posts from me, nope, uh uh, not a chance, ain't gonna happen, nosiree!

[Cowboy1600]

God some of you guys can vomit forth patriot, rhetoric B/S...."pissing on graves....blah blah blah..." "honor them...blah blah..." what a load of total BS
No where did I see Bacchus, nor anyone else dishonour them.

How about a good reason for them to be there in the first place...."taking the fight th the terrorists...blah blah...." what utter crap. How about "dying so as our Pres can continue with his phenominal conflict of interest...." Have you guys been living under a rock?? bush is a mini oil baron!!!!!! and a born again christian who believes that Jesus will return once the holy lands (Israel) are secured by christians....what part of this dont you guys understand? This is a modern day christian crusade.... He doesnt care who dies to achieve this.....they'll all be raised and judged once its finished.

this is the real reason and you guys support it!! You support your fellow citizens dying so as bush can control mass quantities of oil, and edge closer to occuping Israel.

How about not sending them there in the first place? I think thats a much better idea.....

If you guys think its such a great thing being there then how about doing the ultimate patriotic thing and sign up....with the bloodbath that falluja is about to turn into they can always use some more cannon fodder....

Do you really think Bush gives a **** what happens to the soliders over there? Hes willing to sacrifice as many as he has to in order to secure Iraq. Then from Iraq he will send many thousands more to their death in Iran and Saudi Arabia, then finally onto Israel. The best way to honour them is to not send them there. If the US didnt care so much about Israel and oil then they could get the hell outta there and let the middle east wipe itself out. Its US foreign policy that got them in this trouble in the first place.

Now before you accuse me of being disrespectful hear this. I think it disgusting that anyone, be it american, british, iraqi has died in this conflict. It should never have happened in the first place. If I were religious I would pray for those that are still over there, or those who will be sent there in the future. The fact that people must die to fulfil some sick little mans fantasy makes me terribly sad.

RIP those who have fallen, and those that will

[Bacchus]

Cowboy...

edit: whoops, for those of you following a timeline, I guess I already broke my promise... Couldn't help myself!