[rocket]

Originally Posted by ER

As usual, Thomas Sowell nails the issue...

Great article

[rocket]

Originally Posted by bwhip

That's awesome! Yesterday when I signed it was up to about 4,000 or so. Thanks!

When I signed it was in the 4k range. Awesome.

[luvtolean]

I just signed it and it was like 24k.

[sheepofblue]

Originally Posted by Cowboy1600

And you guys stoop even lower.

Sorry but there was no limbo icon.

Be sure you never get in a battle with a blue sheep I would have done the same. Of course if you were on my side be sure to have a blue sheep along. someone faking death is lying in wait to kill you all, kill him first. Sorry that is war and why it is good to avoid when possible.

[Cowboy1600]

Originally Posted by sheepofblue

Sorry but there was no limbo icon.

Be sure you never get in a battle with a blue sheep I would have done the same. Of course if you were on my side be sure to have a blue sheep along. someone faking death is lying in wait to kill you all, kill him first. Sorry that is war and why it is good to avoid when possible.

But who said he was lying in wait to kill someone? The other iraqis in there didnt look threatening. Infact Id say they were petrified and didnt want to be in the thick of it. Not everyone fighting against the coalition are terrorists. There are a lot of fighters who are just normal iraqis. These people are begining to feel like they have being invaded rather than liberated. Now they have taken u arms to repel the invaders, rather than welcoming the liberators. Im sure if someone stormed the US to dislodge Bush cause they think he's a tyrant, you guys would take up arms too. Whos to say this iraqi wasnt in this situation?

I agree, war should be avoided at all costs.

[sheepofblue]

Originally Posted by Cowboy1600

But who said he was lying in wait to kill someone?

The problem is they do not know unless he was surrendering. To just trust that he is 'only playing possum' could get them killed

Originally Posted by Cowboy1600

Not everyone fighting against the coalition are terrorists. There are a lot of fighters who are just normal iraqis. These people are begining to feel like they have being invaded rather than liberated. Now they have taken u arms to repel the invaders, rather than welcoming the liberators.

But they are taking up arms above you implied they were probably harmless

Originally Posted by Cowboy1600

Im sure if someone stormed the US to dislodge Bush cause they think he's a tyrant, you guys would take up arms too. Whos to say this iraqi wasnt in this situation?

If someone stormed the US for any reason I would take up arms, and be willing to die doing so.

Originally Posted by Cowboy1600

I agree, war should be avoided at all costs.

War should be avoided but not at all costs. There is a cost for doing nothing also. WWII would be extermination of the Jewish people and millions more. Our civil war would have been the continuation of slavery and a non United States. The fact that the Soviets did not topple Stalin resulted in a huge number of deaths. Not all wars are positive nor as clean cut in benefit as these but sometimes you do need to open a jar of woop-ass on someone.

[Cowboy1600]

Originally Posted by sheepofblue

The problem is they do not know unless he was surrendering. To just trust that he is 'only playing possum' could get them killed
But they are taking up arms above you implied they were probably harmless

Not implying they were harmless, was implying that he may not have deserved to be gunned down in cold blood. Could the soldier have gone about the process of stopping that man without blowing his head off? Look at how appauled the world was with the japanese treatment of POW's. Ruthless killing. Theres potential for this case to be not much better.

If someone stormed the US for any reason I would take up arms, and be willing to die doing so.

As will I should Australia come under attack. And im sure people would be disgusted if we were to be treated with such disdain.

War should be avoided but not at all costs. There is a cost for doing nothing also. WWII would be extermination of the Jewish people and millions more. Our civil war would have been the continuation of slavery and a non United States. The fact that the Soviets did not topple Stalin resulted in a huge number of deaths. Not all wars are positive nor as clean cut in benefit as these but sometimes you do need to open a jar of woop-ass on someone.

Agreed. However were all other avenues exhausted prior to storming iraq

[nhfirefighter13]

Originally Posted by Cowboy1600

As will I should Australia come under attack. And im sure people would be disgusted if we were to be treated with such disdain.

I'm just kind of curious here....

Do you think that if Australia came under attack that the US of A would help your country? Do you think we, as a country, would risk the lives of our military personnel to help defend your soveriegn rights?

Now....do you think Australia would help us if the situation were reversed?

[oldfogey]

Depends on the circumstances, but get real, the answer's yes as it would be for the UK.

[sheepofblue]

Originally Posted by nhfirefighter13

Now....do you think Australia would help us if the situation were reversed?

Interesting point but I know the answer is yes.

[ER]

Originally Posted by Cowboy1600

But who said he was lying in wait to kill someone? The other iraqis in there didnt look threatening. Infact Id say they were petrified and didnt want to be in the thick of it. Not everyone fighting against the coalition are terrorists. There are a lot of fighters who are just normal iraqis. These people are begining to feel like they have being invaded rather than liberated. Now they have taken u arms to repel the invaders, rather than welcoming the liberators. Im sure if someone stormed the US to dislodge Bush cause they think he's a tyrant, you guys would take up arms too. Whos to say this iraqi wasnt in this situation?

I agree, war should be avoided at all costs.

Oh man....I've bitten my tongue long enough. Link a video that gives you the information you need to write what you've been writing. The one video I saw had about 5 seconds of live feed, followed by a few seconds of sound only. How in the world can anyone determine what's been happening over there from that?

We're not over there and we only get our information second-hand. Hell, that applies to most everything about which we argue over the Internet. Just about any media reports you get are going to have an embedded opinion, either for or against what is going on over there. So show me all of your intelligence that makes you confident in writing what you've written. Otherwise, have a nice cup of shut the f*ck up.

[luvtolean]

Originally Posted by ER

So show me all of your intelligence that makes you confident in writing what you've written.

The "intelligence" has been shown...

[ER]

You know what's sad? I've seen handfuls of pictures of our soldiers giving First Aid to the very terrorists they're fighting over there -- men who were possibly trying to kill them hours, minutes...seconds earlier. Where's the hype over that? Yet one young kid who's tasked with having to fight an urban war against an enemy who is definitely NOT playing by any International rules has to make a split decision and everyone wonders from the 5 seconds of film they have whether or not our Marines are cold-blooded killers over there.

I would bet my 401k that every US soldier over there has been made aware of the fact that there is a media presence recording their fight who's just waiting for a controversy to smear them all over the news. A handful of idiots make Iraqi prisoners wear panties on their heads and the backlash in the media was heard around the world. Doesn't anyone think that our fighters over there noticed what happened and have been made aware of the consequences of fighting less than an "honorable" war?

EDIT: Just finished Sowell's column for today, and I especially liked this:

Critics of the Bush administration may keep saying that there is no connection between Iraq and terrorism but the terrorists themselves seem to believe otherwise. Why else are they pouring into Iraq, in what they themselves have characterized as a crucial battle to stop the Americans from reconstituting that country in ways that will make their plans for the region harder to carry out?

There is a cost to this war as there have been costs to all wars, including the Cold War. And there have been painful setbacks and surprises in this war, as there have been in all wars.

George Washington lost most of the battles he fought but we still came out of it as a new and independent nation. But there were grownups in that war and in our other wars.

The big question today -- and for our future -- is not whether our enemies have unlimited resources but whether we have an inexhaustible supply of immaturity in our media and among our politicians.

[figment]

Originally Posted by ER

You know what's sad? ....but whether we have an inexhaustible supply of immaturity in our media and among our politicians.[/i]

true dat

[nhfirefighter13]

Originally Posted by sheepofblue

Interesting point but I know the answer is yes.

Really? With the few Aussies that I "know" (if indeed you can apply their attitudes to the rest of the country) I would tend to disagree.

I have no doubts about Canada and the UK helping out but the rest of the world? They'd be laughing behind closed doors.

[luvtolean]

Maybe I'm mildly paranoid, but I don't know that any country would help us. And I hope to not need to find out.

[Cowboy1600]

Originally Posted by nhfirefighter13

I'm just kind of curious here....

Do you think that if Australia came under attack that the US of A would help your country? Do you think we, as a country, would risk the lives of our military personnel to help defend your soveriegn rights?

Now....do you think Australia would help us if the situation were reversed?

What the **** does that have to do with anything?

Lets see, US gets attacked, Australia joins retaliation forces in Afghanistan. Then follows into Iraq siting terrorism as the catalyst. Australia gets attacked (Bali) yet no one has done a ****ing thing to try and break up JI and hopefully prevent them from doing it again.

My answer: We've already shown that we will come to the aid of the US if need be. Im sure that the US would do the same should an obvious threat to Australia arise.

[Cowboy1600]

Originally Posted by ER

Oh man....I've bitten my tongue long enough. Link a video that gives you the information you need to write what you've been writing. The one video I saw had about 5 seconds of live feed, followed by a few seconds of sound only. How in the world can anyone determine what's been happening over there from that?

We're not over there and we only get our information second-hand. Hell, that applies to most everything about which we argue over the Internet. Just about any media reports you get are going to have an embedded opinion, either for or against what is going on over there. So show me all of your intelligence that makes you confident in writing what you've written. Otherwise, have a nice cup of shut the f*ck up.

And as ive said a couple of times, my beliefs come from the very limited knowledge we have. Show me something that suggests it wasnt cold blooded murder then ill show you the tiny amount of footage we have seen. Do you think my opinion is entirely based on that one but of footage. Ive spoken to Iraqis who have fled during the fighting. I have spoken to Iraqis who still have family living over there.

And once again you've shown your lack of intelligence and stamina by having to restort to petty name calling and very weak insults.

[Cowboy1600]

Originally Posted by ER

You know what's sad? I've seen handfuls of pictures of our soldiers giving First Aid to the very terrorists they're fighting over there -- men who were possibly trying to kill them hours, minutes...seconds earlier. Where's the hype over that? Yet one young kid who's tasked with having to fight an urban war against an enemy who is definitely NOT playing by any International rules has to make a split decision and everyone wonders from the 5 seconds of film they have whether or not our Marines are cold-blooded killers over there.

I would bet my 401k that every US soldier over there has been made aware of the fact that there is a media presence recording their fight who's just waiting for a controversy to smear them all over the news. A handful of idiots make Iraqi prisoners wear panties on their heads and the backlash in the media was heard around the world. Doesn't anyone think that our fighters over there noticed what happened and have been made aware of the consequences of fighting less than an "honorable" war?

Here is the problem. Where have I or anyone else tagged all forces over there as cold blooded killers? What I say relates purely to this one case. There is a lot of fantastic work being done over there by coalition forces. They are doing a mighty job in a **** hole that no sane person on earth would wish to find themselves in. However this doesnt excuse this seemingly obvious indescretion of one soldier. Its not right to say well, we've been doing such great work one or two blatant murders will be ok surely.

We're meant to be so civilised. This is why there is such uproar when a soldier commits an act such as this.

As far as fighting terrorism, there is still no proof that Iraq was connected in any way at all to terrorism. Most of the people who are fighting against the coalition are people who are fighting to gain control of the country. This doesnt make them terrorists, nor deserved of being slain in cold blood, if this has infact been the case.

[Cowboy1600]

Originally Posted by nhfirefighter13

Really? With the few Aussies that I "know" (if indeed you can apply their attitudes to the rest of the country) I would tend to disagree.

I have no doubts about Canada and the UK helping out but the rest of the world? They'd be laughing behind closed doors.

We've already shown that we'll back you if need be. You dont need Aussie forces in Iraq but we sent some anyway. And there are still Aussie forces on the ground in Afghanistan. So there you have it, a working demonstration of our willingness to help out a nation which we call a friend.

[nhfirefighter13]

Originally Posted by Cowboy1600

What the **** does that have to do with anything?

Thanks for proving my point. You sent "some" forces because as a token of goodwill. If you have so much