[ND4SPD]

Someone explain something to me...

China is a communist country and we are obviously not allies with them. Why is it that we give them all of our manufacturing jobs? I realize that it comes down to dollars/cheap labor. Can't the government step in and say something about promoting the economical growth of an enemy?

[sheepofblue]

Originally Posted by ND4SPD

Someone explain something to me...

China is a communist country and we are obviously not allies with them. Why is it that we give them all of our manufacturing jobs? I realize that it comes down to dollars/cheap labor. Can't the government step in and say something about promoting the economical growth of an enemy?

The government is encouraging it because they are a bunch of slimy weasels (on a good day)

[Newfie TLR]

Actually Zoltan, I hear that more and more are going to India instead, especially IT services. Does that make you feel any better?

[ND4SPD]

I know about IT services. I was talking strictly manufacturing. Just about any electronics we purchase today come from China. Not to mention clothes and just about anything else, really.

[Kuss929]

Simple. "THE MAN" has no national ties except to Moneyland.

[dB]

I think the theory is that inclusion in the free market process will eventually lead to a peaceful democratization, from the inside out.

I haven't quite got my head around where the U.S. economy is going in all this.

The company I work for manufactured its own electronics, about 50 ft from where I'm sitting, until early last year. One of the things we never heard of before outsourcing to China: counterfeit electronic components!

[nomad]

Why have a North American worker making sweat-shop t-shirts for $0.07/hour when they could be doing something more industrious with their time.

Don't you remember econ101? Specialize in what you do best and let other nations do the same. Then trade; it will then benefit both countries.

BTW, the USA has made a lot of enemies lately but that's more of a social stigma/political sense. I don't think China is actually your sworn enemy, are they?

[oldfogey]

You understand free trade ND4SPD. It benefits each country, and part of that is losing jobs in some sectors and winning more in others.

China may be "communist" but it's also capitalist and free trade. The public sector in the US is much bigger as % of the economy than in China. Is the US more socialist than China? What China is, is undemocratic and a power rival to the US.

Trading with political rivals works fine.

Edit:

And India is indeed the main IT service job rival, not China which is primarily low value-added manufacturing.

[Cowboy1600]

So as we can all rejoice in cheap shitty products.

Its free markets at work, a core big L Liberal philosophy.

[ND4SPD]

Originally Posted by oldfogey

And India is indeed the main IT service job rival

Don't even get me started on that. Can you guess where my boss is from?

So my boss just asked for a document

[abtech]

Interestingly, China accounts for over 70% of counterfeit software and hardware, yet some manufacturers that count piracy and counterfeiting as a major "loss source" have no problem using China as a major manufacturing resource.

[sheepofblue]

First yes they are a sworn enemy to anyone that has ANY knowledge of that abomination called communism.

Second it is not free trade if only one country has open markets (try owning 100% of a factory in China)

Third I hope that the government succeeds in pushing toward a more free China rather than enriching someone we have to defend ourselves against.

Fourth America is hated by socialists and one worlders because we will not surrender and give them what we have created and earned. We are one of the most generous nations on earth that has helped many other countries over history. While rich we have also made a huge number of the advances in the 20th century that benfit everyone. That said if the dictatorships in the Middle East hate us, fine; if the communist nations of the world hate us, fine; if the fascist South American countries (of which there are fewer due to our efforts), fine; if the French... well who cares

[ND4SPD]

Originally Posted by sheepofblue

Third I hope that the government succeeds in pushing toward a more free China rather than enriching someone we have to defend ourselves against.

And this is the part that kills me. We're helping them get rich hand over fist, yet we have to keep on eye on them so they don't bring us any "surprises."

[Baketech]

Originally Posted by abtech

Interestingly, China accounts for over 70% of counterfeit software and hardware, yet some manufacturers that count piracy and counterfeiting as a major "loss source" have no problem using China as a major manufacturing resource.

I'd worked on a small manufacturing venture in Shanghai province, and was stunned at what passes for business ethics....

Free trade ain't always fair trade....and that cuts both ways...

[oldfogey]

Originally Posted by Cowboy1600

So as we can all rejoice in cheap shitty products.

Its free markets at work, a core big L Liberal philosophy.

Ho hum.

[oldfogey]

Originally Posted by sheepofblue

First yes they are a sworn enemy to anyone that has ANY knowledge of that abomination called communism.

Second it is not free trade if only one country has open markets (try owning 100% of a factory in China)

Third I hope that the government succeeds in pushing toward a more free China rather than enriching someone we have to defend ourselves against.

Fourth America is hated by socialists and one worlders because we will not surrender and give them what we have created and earned. We are one of the most generous nations on earth that has helped many other countries over history. While rich we have also made a huge number of the advances in the 20th century that benfit everyone. That said if the dictatorships in the Middle East hate us, fine; if the communist nations of the world hate us, fine; if the fascist South American countries (of which there are fewer due to our efforts), fine; if the French... well who cares

Disappointing, Sheep. Oh, and you can easily own 100% of a factory, just none of the land.

[Aychdot]

I don't think you can own more than 49% of a company in China. I'm pretty sure you have to have a "Sponsor" who owns 51%. If things arn't going their way they can remove you.

Bring our jobs back home!

[nomad]

Originally Posted by sheepofblue

First yes they are a sworn enemy to anyone that has ANY knowledge of that abomination called communism.

Second it is not free trade if only one country has open markets (try owning 100% of a factory in China)

Third I hope that the government succeeds in pushing toward a more free China rather than enriching someone we have to defend ourselves against.

Fourth America is hated by socialists and one worlders because we will not surrender and give them what we have created and earned. We are one of the most generous nations on earth that has helped many other countries over history. While rich we have also made a huge number of the advances in the 20th century that benfit everyone. That said if the dictatorships in the Middle East hate us, fine; if the communist nations of the world hate us, fine; if the fascist South American countries (of which there are fewer due to our efforts), fine; if the French... well who cares

I have knowledge of communism and I haven't bought the line about them being a sworn enemy.
Free trade has nothing to do about ownership. It means trading goods between two countries without tarriffs and duties to artificially create blocks in the trading process.
I don't have an interest in whether China is a communist or democratic society. They handle their own political matters. But as for defending yourself against them, where did this come from? Why do you need to defend against them?
Lastly, I think this is a qualitative statement... do you believe that socialists hate the US more than the US hates socialist societies?

The point is that I think we should take a look at the reality of who is actually a thread. Economically, does China threaten you by taking away low-paying, low-skilled jobs that most Americans wouldn't even consider doing? Are they a thread militarily? I don't think so in either case. Why so much animosity?

[ND4SPD]

Originally Posted by nomad

But as for defending yourself against them, where did this come from? Why do you need to defend against them?

Ask Klinton about the nukes and such that he sold to them.

[sheepofblue]

Originally Posted by nomad

I have knowledge of communism and I haven't bought the line about them being a sworn enemy.

No not a sworn enemy but one of the base beliefs of communism is that it will rule the ENTIRE world by force if necessary. There is variations but this is a commonality among all brands of communism.

Originally Posted by nomad

Free trade has nothing to do about ownership. It means trading goods between two countries without tarriffs and duties to artificially create blocks in the trading process.

Agree I was trying to illustrate that Chinese markets are VERY far from open compared to any western nation and failed (although it is the case)

Originally Posted by nomad

I don't have an interest in whether China is a communist or democratic society.

I do. Not necessarily democratic but at least free. I have an interest in my fellow man not being slaves to a group of tyrants. Communism has killed millions and will continue to.

Originally Posted by nomad

They handle their own political matters. But as for defending yourself against them, where did this come from? Why do you need to defend against them?

They are not an immediate threat but are building themselves to be one. They also have a history of attacking and absorbing thier neighbors. Some of those neighbors are our friends (Japan, South Korea and Tiawan for instance). Read anything about the Chinese military strategy and exercises and they are always aimed at two things, the US and Tiawan.

Originally Posted by nomad

Lastly, I think this is a qualitative statement... do you believe that socialists hate the US more than the US hates socialist societies?

Yes, we do not hate socialist countries. We have many as good friends and allies (yours included). However a government that denies its citizens freedoms is most threatened by one that does not. You can see this dynamic even between our states.

Originally Posted by nomad

The point is that I think we should take a look at the reality of who is actually a thread. Economically, does China threaten you by taking away low-paying, low-skilled jobs that most Americans wouldn't even consider doing? Are they a thread militarily? I don't think so in either case.

Sorry I disagree but for legal and ethical reasons cannot and will not expand on this. I understand if you think this is a sheepish dodge but it has to be that way

Originally Posted by nomad

Why so much animosity?

Because I want good things for my fellow man and have never seen communism provide anything but the opposite for the people nor their neighbors.

[nomad]

We didn't make any headway on our above discussion. I still do not believe that the Chinese are a horrible, evil empire that is trying to take over the world. We'll have to disagree on that one. It's too bad you guys feel so defensive against so many countries in the world.

Originally Posted by sheepofblue

Yes, we do not hate socialist countries. We have many as good friends and allies (yours included).

I don't totally agree with the other comments you made but this one is laughable and rather a low-blow. You can't be serious. Or, you are serious and ignorant or you are joking... eitherway, it was a cheapshot in an otherwise valid debate.

Originally Posted by sheepofblue

However a government that denies its citizens freedoms is most threatened by one that does not. You can see this dynamic even between our states.

I think this is the crux. Too many 'freedoms' defines anarchy. We all know anarchy is a less workable solution than communism so the real question is, "What do you define as 'freedoms'?" Just because one state enforces helmets and the next does not, does that mean they are not a free state? Laws are there to protect the public from themselves which is quite often needed (take a look at environmental, financial or decency laws); just because the US feels they need as few of these laws as possible doesn't mean that other countries such as Canada, Australia, most countries in Europe also feel this way and it most certainly is a far cry from socialism.

I'm glad your super-duper-China-is-coming secrets have informed us of impending asian doom; I hope they don't attack, but if they do, I hope they bring me a Gap t-shirt. (a little levity never hurt).