National Day-Care Program

phobiaphobe · 06-09-2005, 10:45 AM

The federal Liberals and NDP are talking seriously about a national day-care program modeled off Quebec's system. I'm so sick of this bullshit socialist agenda I could puke. If they push this through I swear to god I'm moving.

edit: to arizona

QuikMike · 06-09-2005, 11:55 AM

Quote:

Originally Posted by phobiaphobe

The federal Liberals and NDP are talking seriously about a national day-care program modeled off Quebec's system. I'm so sick of this bullshit socialist agenda I could puke. If they push this through I swear to god I'm moving.

edit: to arizona

now, I know don't anything whatsoever about Quebec's system and I will look into it a bit further, but I have a question for you, phobe:

Do you have any children? If so, are they in daycare? and if they are, what ballpark figure do you pay a month(if you don't mind me asking).....

all bets are off if you don't have kids....just curious...

I have a set of 20month old twins....daycare runs us $1100/month....and that's cheap here in Raleigh....

I am not a liberal, socialist or whatever, but I do think the daycare industry needs to be regulated in some fashion b/c it's out of control....it's a double-edged sword from some folks point of view I think....there are families with 2,3,4 or how ever many kids out here where both parents(or in some cases, one parent) cannot afford to not work...they are forced to put their kids in daycare which can easily range from $350-$800 per month/per child....IMO, that's a nice chunk of change for a single parent....There is no rule, law or regulation of any sort on how much a daycare can charge...maybe I wouldn't feel this way if I wasn't paying $1100/month, but yet I digress...I think something should be done....

MACI4LIFE · 06-09-2005, 11:59 AM

I agree. That is why quebec's daycare program is going to be modelled for all of canada.

just an example

single mom + 1 kid = kid in daycare, mom still working

or

single mom + 1 kid = kid at home mom at home WELFARE cause she can't afford daycare.

MACI4LIFE · 06-09-2005, 12:04 PM

after a quick read about quebec's daycare program. it does favour working famillies over single parents, or non working famillies. to me thats a good thing. Finally giving incentives to get a job and make something for yourself.

phobiaphobe · 06-09-2005, 12:18 PM

Nope, I don't have kids, so why should I have to pay for the care of yours?

As for the high cost of daycare, if you didn't think you could afford to support them why did you have kids? I don't mean to sound callous but it's just not my problem and I don't want to have to pay for it.

Mike: If a private daycare cost $350-800 per child, how much do you think it will cost the government to run it? Hasn't it been proven that private industry can run more efficiently and profitably than state-controlled business? There would be a multi-billion dollar fixed cost to establish the program, then millions upon millions in variable costs paying bureaucrats to run the miserable thing.

When you take your kid to a private daycare, you have the freedom of choice as to where you take him. You also have the freedom to choose not to pay for daycare. If our government does this, I don't have the freedom to choose not to pay for daycare, even if I don't even have ****ing kids.

Every time the state steps in on something like this, we lose a little bit of freedom.

Newfie TLR · 06-09-2005, 12:34 PM

Hey Quickmike:

Here's my vision and opinion of the Canadian side, so please don't take it against the US side, but with your $1100 / mo, you are in better shape than most here in Canada (and that's said without knowing your family income).

You're right, Phobe probably doesn't have kids, but I do, and here's my opinion:

I'm 46 (and so is the bride) and we have one daughter, now 22. Out of school and living on her own with her Fiancee. We didn't have (or look for) government assisted child care. We took out bites and hits, did without stuff that were considered would-likes, extravagant vacations, etc. Now, people who want the Child Care Program want a portion of my taxes to go to Child Care?? I'm with Phobe............. fook that!! IMHO, if you decide to have 2, 3 or 4 (or more) kids, then you had better have the resources to provide for them as necessary (including child care).

Here in this country, our Liberal policies have helped us to where I am in a 35% + tax bracket (and I don't make $100K+ a year either) and I have to pay 15% sales tax on almost everything I buy, and God knows how much tax I pay on gasoline, beer and booze. I don't want to pay any more taxes to support these kind of issues.

Peace!

Edit:

I posted this before I read Phobe's reply, but it's scaring me. I'm agreeing with that North-of-the-border-Redneck-Hillbilly-cowboy!!!!

BDA116 · 06-09-2005, 12:42 PM

Day care can be expensive, but it should be the sole responsibility of the parents, not everyone else. I have two kids, and my wife stays home with them. They are our responsibility. I sure as hell don't want to foot the bill for someone else.
Day care IS regulated here by licensing. If you're talking price regulation for private business, that is another example of government overstepping their bounds and creating another socialist program that should not exist here (in the U.S.).
As for the Canadian program, I'm not aware of the program itself, but if it has to do with everyone paying taxes to support a government run program, it is socialist and I wouldn't like it.
I know of a few cases where the wife's paycheck basically covers day care costs and maybe the satellite bill. In cases like that, why does the wife work? Why should it be my responsibility to cover the expenses?
One of my sisters in law has a thing with other women in her neighborhood where they switch off one day a week and take turns watching the kids. They arranged with their employers to miss those couple days a month.
Yeah day care is a large business that takes in a lot of money.
A question for you Mike: If you're paying $1100 a month to this business, how much do you think thery're taking in a month? How much do you think you could save AND take in a month if you were to open one?
No offense, just trying to open you up to other options.

QuikMike · 06-09-2005, 1:15 PM

Very well said and stated points by all above...no offense taken...again, this is just my way of trying to understand someone else's POV....'tis all...

nowhere in my post did I say anything about the government RUNNING a national daycare...I simply said that I think that some sort of regulation should be instated to help regulate the cost of daycare costs....maybe some sort of formula...for example: two parents+2 kids= a max of $1000-$1200/month depending on other factors(potty-trained, donations, etc.) or single parent+2 kids= a max of $500-750/month....or something to that effect....

it's easy as hell to sit back and say,"well, if you couldn't afford daycare, then why have kids", but that's the cop-out, "water-under the bridge" mentality to me b/c the kids are here now...A solution needs to be found that can help bring this situation under control....I never said I couldn't afford them, I simply said that I think $1100 is a bit outlandish...Like with most government run programs, I'm sure a National Daycare Plan would be a "cluster-f*ck" in some areas.....Like I said, I'll research Canada's program again b/c I am clueless about it, but I still believe something needs to be done about the spiraling, out of control costs of daycare..

BDA:

oh trust me man, I've mulled over that option a plenty o times, but I don't have the resources or time to invest properly into opening one....but hey, you know the old saying, "if you can't beat 'em, join 'em!".....

BDA116 · 06-09-2005, 1:25 PM

Quote:

Originally Posted by QuikMike

BDA:

oh trust me man, I've mulled over that option a plenty o times, but I don't have the resources or time to invest properly into opening one....but hey, you know the old saying, "if you can't beat 'em, join 'em!".....

Not to turn this a whole different direction, but you do know that all you need is a decent business plan and you could have an SBA loan at the drop of a hat, right? On the app list your wife as the primary owner and applicant of said business, as SBA loan departments HAVE to meet quotas in order to keep getting federally guaranteed money and having a minor woman with a decent business plan is nearly an automatic approval.
I'm sure you could get some help writing one up if it is something you'd seriously consider.

You could be raking in some serious coin if day care prices are that expensive out there (and either you or your wife could tolerate them until you got good help).
Just tossing that cookie out there.

Newfie TLR · 06-09-2005, 2:17 PM

Hey Mike:

"Government Run" Vs. "Government Regulated"!!

That's splittin' hairs man. Either way the Elected officials are involved which usually means sumpins gonna get phuked up!!!

luvtolean · 06-09-2005, 2:18 PM

A national day care is a desperately needed thing. Kids that start their learning before kindergarten statistically do much better in their school careers. This does not even mention the working people out there.

I hate socialism and government control. But education and infrastructure are things the government can do best for the masses.

I watched my sister have to decide not to goto college because she was a white, middle class, single mom that was working and not on welfare yet could not afford the day care to goto college.

I don't know if I've ever hated the government much more than the day she was told the college (government sponsored of course) daycare program gave priority to minorities and those on welfare and not to even bother applying...

Newfie TLR · 06-09-2005, 2:26 PM

Quote:

Originally Posted by luvtolean

A national day care is a desperately needed thing. Kids that start their learning before kindergarten statistically do much better in their school careers. This does not even mention the working people out there....snip

I didn't go to Kindergarten. So does that mean I'm a royal phuk-up??

LTL, I believe the educational side of it is very minor when compared to the cost savings side. Remember that thread with the posts about how much auto workers make?? One of the biggest activists for Government funded day care around here is a legal secretary and her husband is a millwright at one of the Ford (NEMAK) plants. So between them they're bring home $160K- $170 K + a year. And she wants the government (hence the taxpayers) to pay their babysitting?? Screw that ****!!!!

As for your educational side, around here ( I won't comment on California, I don't live there) you have 2 kindergartens (Jr & Sr) and you have 12 more years before graduating High School. That's 14 years to prepare you for University or College. I'm very sorry to disagree Pal, but if 14 ain't enough, 1 or 2 more at preschool age ain't gonna do it.

luvtolean · 06-09-2005, 2:39 PM

It is the opinion of the majority of people who research in this field that the difference carries all the way through life.

Your example is meaningless to me. I didn't either, but I've always been a head of the class. So what. I also had parents with the luxury of a stay at home mom that spent the time working with us. Not everyone can have that. Increasingly fewer can.

I also don't give a damn if it helps a specific family making $170k/yr. It's their taxes paying for everything anyway.

It helps ALL OF US if people are more educated in every way. And, yes, if there are more people working, and less crime, you also save in the long run, in the best way possible.

Read this to start. It's long, but if you're in a hurry, scroll down to "long term benefits"

http://www.nwrel.org/scpd/sirs/3/topsyn3.html

As soon as a program discriminates, someone is getting screwed.

I don't like the government telling me what to do. I do like the government investing in infrastructure as it is the future of the nation. And make no mistake, education is the infrastructure that takes countries to the top.

BDA116 · 06-09-2005, 2:45 PM

And government is horrible at education. It already pisses me off that I have to pay for shitty education for everyone, even when my own kids don't use the shitty free indoctrination system.
To have to extend that to day care? No way, absolutely not. Children are the responsibility of the parents and no one else. I would never subject my 2 year old son to government day care and indoctrination. I love him WAY too much.
And since it was brought up, the government should get out of education as well. Allow those that want to use the money the government takes from them for use on schooling to use that money on the school of their choice, and quit cramming one sided views of everything down everyone's throats.
Look at how the government has destroyed schooling. Day care would suffer the same fate.
Nowhere in the Constitution does it state that the federal government is to provide day care or education.

QuikMike · 06-09-2005, 3:14 PM

Quote:

Originally Posted by luvtolean

It is the opinion of the majority of people who research in this field that the difference carries all the way through life.

Your example is meaningless to me. I didn't either, but I've always been a head of the class. So what. I also had parents with the luxury of a stay at home mom that spent the time working with us. Not everyone can have that. Increasingly fewer can.

I also don't give a damn if it helps a specific family making $170k/yr. It's their taxes paying for everything anyway.

It helps ALL OF US if people are more educated in every way. And, yes, if there are more people working, and less crime, you also save in the long run, in the best way possible.

Read this to start. It's long, but if you're in a hurry, scroll down to "long term benefits"

http://www.nwrel.org/scpd/sirs/3/topsyn3.html

As soon as a program discriminates, someone is getting screwed.

I don't like the government telling me what to do. I do like the government investing in infrastructure as it is the future of the nation. And make no mistake, education is the infrastructure that takes countries to the top.

I must say that I concur....before we put our kids in daycare, they were in two separate "home daycares" where the owners said that they worked with the kids and the sort.....I didn't really noticed any kind of progress in the kids speech, cognitive skills, socialization or anything...but within a week or two of being in daycare and around other kids their age, I noticed a huge difference in all of those areas...I'm sure part of this difference stemmed from the kids just gettin older and natural progression, but I do think the daycare played a major role in the development of these skills....I guess the point I'm trying to make is that the one of the most valuable things a responsible parent can give to their child is a good start in education...and I think Head Start/Pre-school/Daycare, etc. is a worthwhile investment....should it be made more affordable? of course, but it's still worth it IMO

phobiaphobe · 06-09-2005, 4:09 PM

Quikmike: the government shouldn't be regulating prices either. The only thing that should regulate prices in a free market is the market itself. What happens when they cap daycare rates and force private day-cares out of business?

RRWANTR · 06-09-2005, 4:15 PM

Dang it...there's my problem. No daycare/preschool and I didn't go to school till I was 6. Instead of going to college my Sr yr of highschool I could have made it my freshman year....dang parents.

luvtolean · 06-09-2005, 4:43 PM

Quote:

Originally Posted by BDA116

And government is horrible at education. It already pisses me off that I have to pay for shitty education for everyone, even when my own kids don't use the shitty free indoctrination system.
To have to extend that to day care? No way, absolutely not. Children are the responsibility of the parents and no one else.

Yes, but when they become criminals/welfare losers, they're your problem. Either way, you pay.

The educational system is not shitty because it is government funded.

Quote:

Nowhere in the Constitution does it state that the federal government is to provide day care or education.

Of course not. And I don't think the government owes me anything.

But we already pay billions in head start and things like this that help certain groups only. I say spend a little more, and invest in the future of the country as a whole.

IT HAS NEVER been money poorly spent by a government when they raise the overall level of education in the country.

Education is literally the cornerstone of a modern society. You cannot have one without the other. There are no industrilaized nations that rely mostly on private funding of schooling. That is the territory of thirld world countries exclusively....and a sure path to the demise of the middle class.

There are a whole hell of a lot of areas you could cut in government that are waste. We could dramatically cut welfare benefits (but the reprocussions would be larger than just paying it)...we could close more useless overseas bases, we could cut the bullshit spending on all of these new pseudo-military Patriot Act organizations out catching people playing with lasers and locking up more people smoking pot...but spending more money on education is stupid and wasteful.

luvtolean · 06-09-2005, 5:04 PM

Since it's on topic kinda, why does the US incentivize having kids?!

Take away the tax benefit of having rugrats and send them to school with that!

RRWANTR · 06-09-2005, 5:14 PM

Quote:

Originally Posted by luvtolean

Since it's on topic kinda, why does the US incentivize having kids?!

Take away the tax benefit of having rugrats and send them to school with that!

It costs more to have kids (and send to college etc) than any tax benefit will provide for....

luvtolean · 06-09-2005, 5:16 PM

Quote:

Originally Posted by RRWANTR

It costs more to have kids (and send to college etc) than any tax benefit will provide for....

Yeah. So what?! If you can't afford them, don't have them! Schooling accounts for a whole **** ton of the federal budget, what kinda screwed up system lets you pay less for costing them more?!

I'm not aware of any other country in the world that gives a tax break for having a kid. It should be a tax increase, as you are costing the government more money!