[Aychdot]

Originally Posted by luvtolean

I find maintaining a separation of church and state anything but inane.

If it said, "under Allah", or "under Satan", would you feel any differently?

Sorry I'm late but I'll put in my two cents. I'm all for my children saying the "Pledge of Allegiance", but you have to think about the under god part. "God" represents alot of gods that you hate and the one you love just pull him from the list. Whether its Yahweh, Budda, Allah, Satan, the people who killed themselves in Cali who didn't want to miss the mother ship, etc. All religions have a "Being" that they call God. If your government uses the term God, take it with a grain of salt because most people worship or believe in a god of some sort. It's when your government starts to use a name of a specific religion's god that you need to be leery.

I am a god fearing man and I think people are wasting my country's money on all kinds of frivolous lawsuits. There are much larger problems in this country besides my child saying "under god" in school!

[luvtolean]

Originally Posted by BDA116

This has already been overturned. It will be again.

This specific case has not. It was thrown out of the Supreme Court as he was not the legal guardian of his daughter. It had nothing to do with the correctness of his case and the lower court's rulings.

[luvtolean]

Originally Posted by Aychdot

All religions have a "Being" that they call God.

Uh, no they don't. And, adding to this fact is that the term used is "God" which pretty much always refers to the Christian God.

The meaning of the word "God" aside (as I don't find it particularly important to the discussion), not all people believe in religion. Some are atheists, like this man.

[esoteric]

Originally Posted by Aychdot

"God" represents alot of gods that you hate and the one you love just pull him from the list. Whether its Yahweh, Budda, Allah, Satan, the people who killed themselves in Cali who didn't want to miss the mother ship, etc. All religions have a "Being" that they call God.

That's not true. "God", captialized, is a proper name for an individual god and it addresses those specific religions that recognize it. Not all religions have a god, some have multiple gods. I think on a global survey, the high percentage of worshippers do not have "God" specifically.

Originally Posted by Aychdot

It's when your government starts to use a name of a specific religion's god that you need to be leery.

Indeed. And when "God" tells GWB to invade Iraq, among other things, one must be VERY leery.

Originally Posted by Aychdot

I am a god fearing man and I think people are wasting my country's money on all kinds of frivolous lawsuits.

It's not frivolous. It has the intentions of setting back that which was made wrong long ago.

[Aychdot]

Originally Posted by luvtolean

Uh, no they don't. And, adding to this fact is that the term used is "God" which pretty much always refers to the Christian God.

You are very right about it refering to the Christian God. I was just looking at the broad spectrum that the term can take.

Originally Posted by luvtolean

The meaning of the word "God" aside (as I don't find it particularly important to the discussion), not all people believe in religion. Some are atheists, like this man.

I said "most people". My idea on the pledge is to put the issue on a ballot of the US voters and let them decide, there are certain things that we shouldn't trust our legislators to decide for us. If you are an atheist I don't think you sould have to say "Under God" or anything of the sort. They should also only write checks use debit cards because all US Currency says "In god we trust". (just kidding on the last sentence, I really don't care for religion on my currency either)

[esoteric]

Originally Posted by Aychdot

I said "most people". My idea on the pledge is to put the issue on a ballot of the US voters and let them decide, there are certain things that we shouldn't trust our legislators to decide for us.

It's the legislature that made the insertion and the path to revocation is through the court system. Public opinion should have no bearing on a matter like this. Government is organized such that public opinion is supposed to put in power those people that CAN be trusted to make our decisions for us. If our legislators are untrustworthy, why do we bother to have them? If these two words are so important as to not have the government involved in the decision (by your statement), how important is the matter of WAR and shoud THAT be put up to a public opinon vote because it's such a weighty matter?

Always remember, there are many average people with many average (or below) ideas. A majority of people are average or below average and many people think they're smarter than they really are (just like many drivers and riders think they're more skilled than they really are). Only a minority of people have useful and credible educations with meaningful background. Do you really want average and below average people, en-masse, determining policies? No. We have enough problems with the people they elect.

[Aychdot]

Originally Posted by esoteric

It's the legislature that made the insertion and the path to revocation is through the court system. Public opinion should have no bearing on a matter like this. Government is organized such that public opinion is supposed to put in power those people that CAN be trusted to make our decisions for us. If our legislators are untrustworthy, why do we bother to have them? If these two words are so important as to not have the government involved in the decision (by your statement), how important is the matter of WAR and shoud THAT be put up to a public opinon vote because it's such a weighty matter?

Always remember, there are many average people with many average (or below) ideas. A majority of people are average or below average and many people think they're smarter than they really are (just like many drivers and riders think they're more skilled than they really are). Only a minority of people have useful and credible educations with meaningful background. Do you really want average and below average people, en-masse, determining policies? No. We have enough problems with the people they elect.

Good points. And no we don't have time for people to vote for war. And NO! I don't trust most of my elected officials. Most of them started their political careers with good intentions, but I think most of them have been blinded by the gifts of the system

[aussie_929]

Originally Posted by luvtolean

I find maintaining a separation of church and state anything but inane.

If it said, "under Allah", or "under Satan", would you feel any differently?

Exactly, effectively they are dividing people with the statement. The US contains all kinds of people with different religions and beliefs.

[aussie_929]

Originally Posted by rocket

Geez LTL you almost sound giddy about the whole thing. Yay we can be a nation of athiests now.

I for one believe this country has been greatly blessed because of it's deference to God. I guess we'll find out either way.

Whats wrong with being a athiest? Isnt one of the best things about the US is religious freedom or not believe at all? Why limit it to one group of many?

[ND4SPD]

Wow did this take off...

Anyway. What I was always taught in the good ol' public school system is that the original pilgrims fleed from England to gain religious freedom. They were being persecuted and forced to follow a certain way of life. Am I correct on this?

They came here, and they started arguably the greatest country on Earth with total religious freedom. However, it is quite obvious what their beliefs were. To me it seems that the country was based(at least in part) on a certain set of beliefs, yet still giving any future immigrants to practice whatever religion, or lack-of, they please. To the best of my knowledge this still exists today, no? Why can't people just leave things alone? Stuff like this is just as frivolous as the lady who sued McDonald's and won because there was no warning on her coffee cup that the contents are hot.

Like BDA said, if you have a problem with a certain set of words, skip over them. What is the big deal? I had plenty of classmates in elementary school that wouldn't stand during the Pledge. When the teacher questioned them they simply said it was against their religion and that was it. Nobody made fun of them, nobody ridiculed them. It's just the way they are.

All of this(and other stuff too) just appears to be whiny, lazy parents wanting the state to raise their kid so they(the parent) don't have to explain anything to their kid.

What would people do if the words "under God" were in the original script?

Here is a link to a local news station. Towards the right is a poll they put up in lieu of this ruling.
http://www.newsnet5.com/index.html

[aussie_929]

Originally Posted by ND4SPD

Wow did this take off...


They came here, and they started arguably the greatest country on Earth with total religious freedom.

It's great to be patriotic and everything. However do realise how tired the world is of hearing Americans keep telling everyone that the US is the greatest country in the world?

I'll probably get flamed for saying that but guys it really does come across as very obnoxious.

[ND4SPD]

Originally Posted by aussie_929

It's great to be patriotic and everything. However do realise how tired the world is of hearing Americans keep telling everyone that the US is the greatest country in the world?

I'll probably get flamed for saying that but guys it really does come across as very obnoxious.

Notice I said "arguably". This is a whole different topic altogether, but where else can you go and find a similar environment of endless possibilities and freedoms that exist here?

Excuse me for loving my country and being (mostly)proud of it. If others would do the same of their country and stop the finger pointing/hatred that's evident, the world would be a much better place

[aussie_929]

Originally Posted by ND4SPD

Notice I said "arguably". This is a whole different topic altogether, but where else can you go and find a similar environment of endless possibilities and freedoms that exist here?

Uumm....Australia Nothing wrong with loving your country as I suggested when saying "It's great to be patriotic and everything" but telling everyone how it's the greatest place on earth all the time gets old.

Trust me, it gets said a lot.

[Baketech]

Irony Defined

[Sunbert]

Originally Posted by luvtolean

I'd almost surely vote for him.

What did he have to say (on this topic)?

He said it was ridiculous and will be overturned like most of what comes out of that district.

[phobiaphobe]

Originally Posted by SPEED

.. .

Separation of Church & State was to keep the State from the church, not the Church from the State.

Would you still believe that if an Islamist regime were elected by an overwhelming majority of arabic immigrants?

[phobiaphobe]

Originally Posted by Aychdot

... Whether its Yahweh, Budda, Allah, Satan, the people who killed themselves in Cali who didn't want to miss the mother ship, etc. All religions have a "Being" that they call God. ...

A billion or so Buddhists would tell you otherwise.

[phobiaphobe]

Originally Posted by esoteric

...Indeed. And when "God" tells GWB to invade Iraq, among other things, one must be VERY leery.....

.

[Scout]

AMERICA, THE GREATEST PLACE ON EARTH, UNDER GOD!

I've served my Country, my State, and "the public", so I reserve the right for you and I to say, or not say, whatever we wish.

I think it interesting there are restrictions put forth against religion, whatever the religion is, by the state, whether it be by the vote or appeal of the individual, the people, or a government entity.

I myself am Christian. I would absolutely ask my children to leave the room if the pledge of allegiance was enforced as "under Satan". I don't care if it's taken from the pledge at all. It will not effect my families Faith.

As far as the "God Money" statement I made, it would bother me even less if it was taken off the money.

And Aussie, Americans tend to be proud of our Country. There's nothing wrong with that. You could be proud of your Country too, and spout all day the glories of your land. It wouldn't bug anyone. So drop the "small mans" complex and quit yer bitchin'.

[luvtolean]

Originally Posted by Sunbert

He said it was ridiculous and will be overturned like most of what comes out of that district.

Oh well, he doesn't get everything right. Of course, McCain too is a politician, and since this country is a vast Christian majority, that is the popular thing to say. Good politics.

[phobiaphobe]

L2L did you stay up all night to argue in this thread? Maybe time to get some sleep buddy.