[luvtolean]

You know, this just fries me.

Bush pardons a bunch of straight criminals. Including a bomber. Yet, he's letting the borderline idiot kid, Pfc Lynndie England do 3 YEARS in prison for problems more related to the officers (non punished) than her. Not to mention of course, she's ruined, for life for work.

Pardons:
http://news.yahoo.com/s/ap/20050928/...ential_pardons

Abu Gharaib:
http://news.yahoo.com/news?tmpl=stor...abuse_glance_1

[BDA116]

Yeah, Presidential pardons are crap. Especially when they are done to buy your wife Senate votes.

And the soldiers that humiliated prisoners shouldn't be the fall-people either.

[Mo Noyz]

I agree for the most part.

But England's sentence isn't unreasonable.

[Getsome]

Originally Posted by Mo Noyz

I agree for the most part.

But England's sentence isn't unreasonable.

True true... They knew better...

[BDA116]

Originally Posted by Getsome

True true... They knew better...

.....than to take pictures.

[Mo Noyz]

Exactly.

Her stupidity should have been worth 3 years alone.

[stegen]

so could the president pardon anyone? does pardon mean they get off scott-free? why else would a pres do this?! sounds unreasonable to me. and i cant beleive how many clinton had!? Damn!

[Cowboy1600]

Originally Posted by BDA116

Yeah, Presidential pardons are crap. Especially when they are done to buy your wife Senate votes.

And the soldiers that humiliated prisoners shouldn't be the fall-people either.

Holy-leeeee ****. I cant believe I agree with BDA. I gotta go wash myself, I feel so dirty....

Actually I agree with pretty much everything thats been said in this thread thus far.

[phobiaphobe]

She can just pose for Hustler (shudder) when she gets out of the can. Or get a reality show.

SURVIVOR, ABU GHRAIB

[Scout]

I don't agree with her actions, but with my minute insight into "intelligence operations", I don't think she acted outside what was considered the norm there, at the time. The other guy, a Sgt. I believe, was a Corrections Officer stateside, and HE should have known better.

Regardless of whether there were pictures (though that was an international disaster):

Point #1: Muslim fundamentalists hate us (U.S. infidels) anyway

Point #2: The truth always surfaces, and SOMEONE is always blamed

Point #3: Our actions will always be exploited, no matter how big or little
(Can you really compare a nude pyramid to beheadings?)


You know, wherever she is from, I'm sure there are some (just as "challenged") people who think she's a patriot, and will employ her as soon as she's released.

[BizJetGuy]

She's a political scapegoat.

[luvtolean]

Originally Posted by BizJetGuy

She's a political scapegoat.

Yes, 3 years in Club Fed reasonable? You're outta your minds! Your average rapist doesn't do 3 years.

There was a whole group doing this stuff. She was involved. And she took the fall.

What happened to the officers taking responsibility for their soldiers? They were the ones tasked with stopping this behavior.

[BizJetGuy]

Originally Posted by luvtolean

Yes, 3 years in Club Fed reasonable? You're outta your minds! Your average rapist doesn't do 3 years.

There was a whole group doing this stuff. She was involved. And she took the fall.

What happened to the officers taking responsibility for their soldiers? They were the ones tasked with stopping this behavior.

I agree with you 100%. Unfortunately, her name is the catch-phrase and she is paying the price for everyone else. This will follow her for the rest of her life. Sad.

[luvtolean]

Yeah, I was in violent agreement with you.

I watched her talk on TV, she sounded borderline retarded. Not the kind of person to say no to peer pressure. She's a private in a reserve unit for God's sake. It's not like we're dealing with the creme de la creme of the military.

The commanding officer is the one responsible for his/her soldiers. That
SOB should be the one going to Club Fed.

[Mo Noyz]

Originally Posted by LTL

I watched her talk on TV, she sounded borderline retarded. Not the kind of person to say no to peer pressure.

Too bad. No excuses. She chose to do it.

Period.

The commanding officer is the one responsible for his/her soldiers. That
SOB should be the one going to Club Fed.

Several years back in Florida they were trying to pass a bill that would allow the courts to actually punish parents for crimes that their kids comitted(i.e. heavy fines, even community service). I wondered then what kind of crack those lawmakers were smoking. And what you are saying here stinks just the same.

If the commanding officer did indeed order fun loving Lynndie and her band of merry men to perform these actions, that would be one thing. But it was never established that it came down from on high.

Besides, you seem to be completely ignoring:

• Former Cpl. Charles Graner Jr., of Uniontown, Pa., was found guilty in January. He is serving a 10-year prison term at Fort Leavenworth, Kan. Prosecutors described Graner, who England has said is the father of her infant son, as the ringleader of a group of Abu Ghraib guards who mistreated Iraqis.

• Former Staff Sgt. Ivan Frederick of Buckingham, Va., was sentenced to 8 1/2 years last October after pleading guilty to conspiracy, dereliction of duty, maltreatment of detainees and other charges. Frederick said he helped place wires on a detainee's hands and told him he would be electrocuted if he fell while standing on a box.

Wouldn't a Staff Sgt. be in charge of that group? Sure, he would answer to a C.O., but how in the hell do we even know that the C.O. was privy to any of this?


Ms. England, by definition, is no scapegoat. Not when so many others have been convicted and are serving time, no matter how long or short the sentence is.

[luvtolean]

No I'm not. A staff sargent is not a captain. Who was in charge there?

I'll relate a story to you about accepting responsibility for your command. Here in the Bay Area we used to have a huge military presence. BUT, naval ships had to use a local pilot while in the Bay. While in the Bay, the pilot ran an aircraft carrier aground. Guess who got it? That's right, the CO of the ship. Not the damned steerman.

And of course to some extent, I agree with the FL lawmakers. Kids are ruled not to be responsible for themselves. Parents made sure in FL they aren't as well. So who is?

In the military it's the same. You are not "free" in the military. Someone else is responsible for you.

You make parents responsible for their hellspawn, and suddenly they decide to get involved, rather than calling the cops to arrest their darling little brat when they get in a fight and he won't obey mommy.

[Mo Noyz]

Aw c'mon, LTL. That's bullshit and you know it.

I speak from experience. I was arrested 8 times throughout my teenage years, and from the age of 13-19 I was either locked up, or on probation. Hell, I turned 18 in the Indian River Correctional Institution(which also marked the end of my criminal career).

You know how much my mother had to do with it? Nothing. You know how hard she struggled to get me under control? ****, almost ALL of my relatives were involved. Didn't matter, I was pissed, raising hell, and out of control.

It was punishment enough for my mother just to have to go through such bullshit.

Most kids I knew in those days also had parents who were trying to do everything they could to get them to straighten up.

Trust me, it's a wee bit tougher than you're giving it credit for.

[luvtolean]

What? Raising kids?

Believe me, I don't think that's easy.

[FantasyGod]

Originally Posted by Mo Noyz

Aw c'mon, LTL. That's bullshit and you know it.

I speak from experience. I was arrested 8 times throughout my teenage years, and from the age of 13-19 I was either locked up, or on probation. Hell, I turned 18 in the Indian River Correctional Institution(which also marked the end of my criminal career).

You know how much my mother had to do with it? Nothing. You know how hard she struggled to get me under control? ****, almost ALL of my relatives were involved. Didn't matter, I was pissed, raising hell, and out of control.

It was punishment enough for my mother just to have to go through such bullshit.

Most kids I knew in those days also had parents who were trying to do everything they could to get them to straighten up.

Trust me, it's a wee bit tougher than you're giving it credit for.

Once again, you da man. You must be a pretty cool dad.

[Mo Noyz]

The little one seems to think so.

But he's only five, so he's still easy to fool.

[seamus]

Originally Posted by Mo Noyz

Aw c'mon, LTL. That's bullshit and you know it.

Sorry, Mo. Have to disagree with you here. The commander isn't her parents, he's the commander. He/She is responsible for everything his/her company does or fails to do. Unlike parents, the commander controls every facet of his soldiers' lives, even more so in a combat zone. The only way to get out from under a commander's control is to get out, either get out of the Army or go AWOL.

For the amount of pictures and incidents reported during this, there is NO WAY the company commander did not know about it. There is no way the battalion commander did not know about it. As a commander, I couldn't be everywhere but there was nothing that, if done repeatedly, went beneath my radar for long. There were more than three people working in that prison. More than one leader. People talk. It was out there and someone else knew about it. Nothing was done. Why? IMO, it was the norm. Anything that is not officially discouraged is unofficially encouraged.

Walk past a wrong without correcting it and you just created a new right.

[luvtolean]

Originally Posted by seamus

Sorry, Mo. Have to disagree with you here. The commander isn't her parents, he's the commander. He/She is responsible for everything his/her company does or fails to do. Unlike parents, the commander controls every facet of his soldiers' lives, even more so in a combat zone. The only way to get out from under a commander's control is to get out, either get out of the Army or go AWOL.

For the amount of pictures and incidents reported during this, there is NO WAY the company commander did not know about it. There is no way the battalion commander did not know about it. As a commander, I couldn't be everywhere but there was nothing that, if done repeatedly, went beneath my radar for long. There were more than three people working in that prison. More than one leader. People talk. It was out there and someone else knew about it. Nothing was done. Why? IMO, it was the norm. Anything that is not officially discouraged is unofficially encouraged.

Walk past a wrong without correcting it and you just created a new right.

Great post, especially the last two lines.

[Mo Noyz]

I don't know.

It seems the assumption of knowledge is a little too easy to make.

Besides, where does the buck actually stop?

[BDA116]

Originally Posted by Mo Noyz

Besides, where does the buck actually stop?

With Bush, you . Everything is Bush's fault, haven't you gotten that through your bald skull yet?