[phobiaphobe]

Orwell or Huxley?

Do we live in an Orwellian world? Governments spying on their citizens, the Thought Police, the illusion of freedom, propaganda rules....

Or

Do we live in a Brave New World? Sedated, soulless, vacuous, false happiness... sheltered, naive?

Neither?
Both?

[BDA116]

It al depends on who is in the White House and what way the prevailing political winds are blowing, you should know that by now.

But I'd say both, with the larger percentage going to the soulless and naive part.

[phobiaphobe]

Canada is a Brave New World. Big time.

[jaim]

Originally Posted by phobiaphobe

Orwell or Huxley?

Do we live in an Orwellian world? Governments spying on their citizens, the illusion of freedom, propaganda rules....

Or

Do we live in a Brave New World? Sedated, soulless, vacuous, false happiness... sheltered, naive?

Neither?
Both?

Unfortunately we have some of both. Our government was set up so the Orwellian model should not be possible. But when you have all three branches of government working in lockstep there is little that can prevent it from happening no matter the party. The majority of people in this country seem to like the Brave New World setup. They like being sedate and sheltered. They don't want to know what is going on around the world or with their own government. And again this just allows the government to do what ever without much protest. Sad really.

What's the fix?...Revolution?

[Baketech]

Never heard of them...are they on Fox....got a link...

[Zeeman]

I think a mix of both... Though it also depends where you live.

z...

[Mo Noyz]

Originally Posted by Baketech

Never heard of them...are they on Fox....got a link...

[phobiaphobe]

Originally Posted by Baketech

Never heard of them...are they on Fox....got a link...

They're a couple of hip new bloggers. You'll have to google them.

[luvtolean]

Absolutely both.

A bunch of prozac hazed, tv watching, Patriot Act supporters.

[esoteric]

Originally Posted by luvtolean

A bunch of prozac hazed, tv watching, Patriot Act supporters.

Yes, and Red states, too.

[CBRVFR]

L. Ron Hubbard.

[luvtolean]

Originally Posted by CBRVFR

L. Ron Hubbard.

Just ask Keith Code and Tom Cruise.

[Scout]

Originally Posted by CBRVFR

L. Ron Hubbard.

We're monkeys ruled by aliens??

[BDA116]

Originally Posted by luvtolean

Absolutely both.

A bunch of prozac hazed, tv watching, Patriot Act supporters.

Well the first two are definite blue state attributes, as for the third, I doubt there are many that actually know what the Act states both on this board an in the general public to state there are supporters.
More like oblivious and uninvolved.

[luvtolean]

Sigh. My post was somewhat Tongue-in-cheek.

BDA, I think we went through several of the specifics a while back.

I have a bunch of work to do today (the holiday shutdown crunch), but tonight maybe I'll spend some time on my specific grievances.

I certainly don't like the access to all records without any need for authorization. Things like library cards, bank and med records.

[BDA116]

You do know that the word library doesn't exist in the entire document, right?
It's one of the trumped up claims many have of the Patriot Act, but all the Act did was allow investigators in national security cases the same access to business records that have been available to local criminal case investigators for decades.
There is also no mention of medical records in the entire document.

I think the biggest problem with it is that very few understand it.

[luvtolean]

I disagree.

And we both know things can be interpreted many ways.

It doesn't have to specifically say "library" to grant that right.

[BDA116]

It's all in there to read. What you are referring to is this, what is touted as the "library records provision":

SEC. 215. ACCESS TO RECORDS AND OTHER ITEMS UNDER THE FOREIGN INTELLIGENCE SURVEILLANCE ACT.


Title V of the Foreign Intelligence Surveillance Act of 1978 (50 U.S.C. 1861 et seq.) is amended by striking sections 501 through 503 and inserting the following: `SEC. 501. ACCESS TO CERTAIN BUSINESS RECORDS FOR FOREIGN INTELLIGENCE AND INTERNATIONAL TERRORISM INVESTIGATIONS.


`(a)(1) The Director of the Federal Bureau of Investigation or a designee of the Director (whose rank shall be no lower than Assistant Special Agent in Charge) may make an application for an order requiring the production of any tangible things (including books, records, papers, documents, and other items) for an investigation to protect against international terrorism or clandestine intelligence activities, provided that such investigation of a United States person is not conducted solely upon the basis of activities protected by the first amendment to the Constitution.


`(2) An investigation conducted under this section shall--

`(A) be conducted under guidelines approved by the Attorney General under Executive Order 12333 (or a successor order); and

`(B) not be conducted of a United States person solely upon the basis of activities protected by the first amendment to the Constitution of the United States.

`(b) Each application under this section--

`(1) shall be made to--

`(A) a judge of the court established by section 103(a); or

`(B) a United States Magistrate Judge under chapter 43 of title 28, United States Code, who is publicly designated by the Chief Justice of the United States to have the power to hear applications and grant orders for the production of tangible things under this section on behalf of a judge of that court; and

`(2) shall specify that the records concerned are sought for an authorized investigation conducted in accordance with subsection (a)(2) to protect against international terrorism or clandestine intelligence activities.

`(c)(1) Upon an application made pursuant to this section, the judge shall enter an ex parte order as requested, or as modified, approving the release of records if the judge finds that the application meets the requirements of this section.
`(2) An order under this subsection shall not disclose that it is issued for purposes of an investigation described in subsection (a).
`(d) No person shall disclose to any other person (other than those persons necessary to produce the tangible things under this section) that the Federal Bureau of Investigation has sought or obtained tangible things under this section.
`(e) A person who, in good faith, produces tangible things under an order pursuant to this section shall not be liable to any other person for such production. Such production shall not be deemed to constitute a waiver of any privilege in any other proceeding or context. `SEC. 502. CONGRESSIONAL OVERSIGHT.


`(a) On a semiannual basis, the Attorney General shall fully inform the Permanent Select Committee on Intelligence of the House of Representatives and the Select Committee on Intelligence of the Senate concerning all requests for the production of tangible things under section 402.


`(b) On a semiannual basis, the Attorney General shall provide to the Committees on the Judiciary of the House of Representatives and the Senate a report setting forth with respect to the preceding 6-month period--

`(1) the total number of applications made for orders approving requests for the production of tangible things under section 402; and

`(2) the total number of such orders either granted, modified, or denied.'

Again, it didn't create anything new, just restated previous law.
It actually added Congressional oversight to the previous Act.
I thought there were things in there that just flat aren't as well until I started digging and reading various legal points of view into it.

[Baketech]

My sister-in-law is a liberal schooled librarian, so you can imagine the discussions...
I seriously believe I could get her head to spin off if I just tried a little...

[phobiaphobe]

SSHHH!

[luvtolean]

Academics take it very seriously when they think someone is looking at what they read. Plenty of historical precedent to justify that fear.

[CBRVFR]

Originally Posted by Scout

We're monkeys ruled by aliens??

I thought it was the other way around.