[luvtolean]

Originally Posted by Baketech

Okay, a question for you slash and burn the military peeps...

How many aircraft carriers do you feel we need to keep operational...

I don't even know how many there are. It would take quite a bit of research to make a reasonable estimate. They would certainly be an integral part of the smaller, violent, fast reacting force I think we should have so that budget would be less molested than many others.

What I will say, is that there are areas I think better slashed. Like overseas base closures. Lots of them.

[Baketech]

Maybe this should be split off to keep this thread on topic...

[Baketech]

As far as widespread base closure goes...

Any thoughts on how you would propose to maintain our global humanitarian aid capability once those bases are not in our network? Or would propose willingly reducing that capability?

[luvtolean]

I don't have a good feel for how humanitarian aid is distributed either.

Is a military base needed for this? I don't know that it is or isn't. (Blackhawk Down aside)

These are complicated, important details, but I think they could be reasonably worked out.

[BDA116]

Humanitarian aid? Isn't that what that wonderful U.N. is for? They've shown how great they are at those things in the past, so why do we need to continue doing it on our own?

[ccwilli3]

Its a double murder if you kill a pregnant woman (and baby) since she is carrying a child.

Yet a woman can terminate a pregnancy up to a certain point because 'life has not started'?

Double standard.

[BDA116]

It's also a double standard that if you don't want the baby, she can still have it and then force you to pay.
Yet if you want the baby and she doesn't, she can kill it without your consent and you have no recourse.

[luvtolean]

Yes it is.

Remember the carpool case? A pregnant woman tried to sue that driving in the carpool lane while pregnant should be legal.

It of course was a fight about abortion rights too. Not about a $273 ticket.

Edit: Wow, my 10,000th post.

[ccwilli3]

Originally Posted by BDA116

It's also a double standard that if you don't want the baby, she can still have it and then force you to pay.
Yet if you want the baby and she doesn't, she can kill it without your consent and you have no recourse.

And she never has to tell you. Nor does a child have to tell her parents to get a procedure like this done...

[Mojave954]

Originally Posted by ConqSoft

2.5

[Mojave954]

Originally Posted by Baketech

As far as widespread base closure goes...

Any thoughts on how you would propose to maintain our global humanitarian aid capability once those bases are not in our network? Or would propose willingly reducing that capability?

F$&k global humanitarian aid. Where is it written we need to feed the world. People have been farming in one form or another since the beginning of time. Go dig up some dirt and plant some seeds.

Hand up, not hand outs.....

[Mojave954]

Originally Posted by luvtolean

I don't even know how many there are. It would take quite a bit of research to make a reasonable estimate. They would certainly be an integral part of the smaller, violent, fast reacting force I think we should have so that budget would be less molested than many others.

What I will say, is that there are areas I think better slashed. Like overseas base closures. Lots of them.

1 for each AOR (area of reporting) which I believe there are 4. Twice as many port getting refits, crew rest, blah, blah, blah rotations and the lot.

According to Navy.com, there are 12 active carriers. There is nothing more of greater importance than projecting your sea power, nothing. Blockading a countries ports is a sure way to choke them off from the world and crumble from within.

[Mattress]

Originally Posted by Mojave954

1 for each AOR (area of reporting) which I believe there are 4. Twice as many port getting refits, crew rest, blah, blah, blah rotations and the lot.

According to Navy.com, there are 12 active carriers. There is nothing more of greater importance than projecting your sea power, nothing. Blockading a countries ports is a sure way to choke them off from the world and crumble from within.

AOR's: 3rd Fleet - East Pacific, 7th Fleet - West Pacific, 5th Fleet - Gulf/Indian Ocean, 2nd Fleet - Atlantic, 6th Fleet - Mediterranean

I might have mixed up the 2nd and 6th fleets, can't remember exactly. 5 AOR's, I think the 12 or so carriers we have is a good amount

[Mojave954]

Originally Posted by Mattress

AOR's: 3rd Fleet - East Pacific, 7th Fleet - West Pacific, 5th Fleet - Gulf/Indian Ocean, 2nd Fleet - Atlantic, 6th Fleet - Mediterranean

I might have mixed up the 2nd and 6th fleets, can't remember exactly. 5 AOR's, I think the 12 or so carriers we have is a good amount

Being the land-based flyer that I was we mostly reported to CTF's. We saw those funny little gray things from time to time but... nah... stay up high so we didn't spill our coffee.

[deez]

Reformation of the political process from A to Z. No lobbying, a government by the people for the people. Our government has forgotten that they are here for us, not the other way around.

Agree about education.

Agree about less police.

Agree about The Church and the State being separate. "End of story"

Defend and honor the Constitution, the mockery of it that has been going on for a long time is a slap in the face to our forefathers.

Corporations run this country and I'd like to see that change.

Take care of our environment so our children's children can also have a good life.

[jaim]

So what is the topic of this thread again? There was a bunch of
in the beginning then some more about a different topic, I think.
Then some other stuff.

There was the topic about downsizing the Military. Actually I think the size of your military is fine. We just shouldn't be using it the way we currently are. If we didn't have all of our troops overseas our military budget would be a lot less. As for carrier groups...Not sure they are needed anymore. But I would have to get a full analysis on what our stiking strenghts were for overseas targets.

Education. We should have a system like England or Japan. A tracked system. If you can't pass some tests you can't go on. Period. You have to take a job at your skill level. But this then means no affirmative action.

Birth control. Yes, as much as possible and all should be free. Including abortion and killing people too stupid to be alive.

[seamus]

Sorry it took a bit to respond, been a little busy at work:

Abstract:
Military restructuring at it current or larger size. Focus efforts ahead instead of behind.

I refuse to register under any party. I can think for myself. I’ll choose the person I see fit.
The NRA is a punchline and ACLU : America :: Hannibal : Roman Empire.

Infrastructure:

Education: LTL, You described the education system in the Czech Republic. After elementary school, students are tested and placed in high schools according to test scores. The higher the score, the more aggressive the schooling. (My ex-girlfriend knew more about the politics of the US then I did, and I ain’t stoopid) To get into universities, you take another test. Want to go to medical school, pass the test and it’s the government's dime. Tests are as hard and as exclusionary as the job requires. You want your best and brightest doing the hard, intelligent jobs. Still want to go to medical school after failing the test, pay out of your own pocket. Fair is fair.

Transport:

Roads: A common standard for road construction and repair needs to replace the current system of throw down asphalt and make the hole go away. Contracts should require this standard be maintained AND a guarantee for a certain number of years from the company should be a part of this contract. Lowest bidder should still be used but the standard (nationwide) must be upheld.
Rail/Mass Transit: I’ve been a staunch proponent of all public transportation since my trips outside the US. This is the quickest way to end dependence on foreign energy sources. Even with a renewable energy source, mass transit will be required to keep roads and highways from becoming parking lots. The initial startup costs of revamping and revitalizing mass transit is huge, but sometimes payoff over years at the cost of now is necessary. Unfortunately, it will take years of unprofitable existence before it takes hold.
Crime/Police force: Higher/Better education levels will reduce the crime rate and reduce the need for a large/aggressive police force. The current focus of police forces (speed/traffic enforcement) is ridiculous. An emphasis on PERSONAL RESPONSIBILITY enforced at the earliest ages combined with better/more aggressive training of drivers will reduce the force needed to ensure rational/competent drivers are on the roads. Police forces can then focus on two subjects, crime solution and crime prevention.
The environment doesn’t need protection. It needs people who understand that we all live on the same planet.

Judiciary/laws/social


Foreign Policy: America’s foreign policy ideals need to be fixed. We’re too quick to use force instead of diplomacy. Just like taking aspirin for a broken leg, we attack symptoms, declare victory, then wonder why we hurt just as bad shortly after. Countries hate us because we're arrogant, not because of our military. America continues to function as if we’re every other country’s big brother. We flaunt out size and might, give others noogies and punch them in the gut when we don’t agree.
Financial Support to [insert country here]: Let’s fix ourselves first. If people are starving in Kahdikidikidikistan, that’s not my problem. Not yet. My issue is the American with no food, house, or education. (The reduced outflow of cash will supplement the need for more cash for education and mass transit initiatives without having to raise taxes into the stratosphere)
Congressional Reform: There are a lot of issues I have here but one of the biggest is the use of riders on bills. The defense bill should be the defense bill. Not the defense bill with hundreds of unrelated items attached to it.
Welfare Reform: I don’t agree with it in it’s current state. Want/need help? Fine, for a limited time period. And it has strings attached. You must keep a job. Think you’re too good to work at McDonald’s, then my tax money thinks it’s too good for you.
Church and State are separate. End of story. Agreed.
Federal Savings Program: We need to maintain a reserve of cash for emergencies.

Military

Entering WWI, WWII, Korea, and Vietnam, the US was woefully unprepared. Undertrained, poorly equipped, unmotivated people populated the tiny military (as jaim pointed out in another thread). The professional army is where our stance as Superpower exists. Our ability to forcefully enter a country, lay waste and havoc, and return with minimal losses is what keeps us all sleeping peacefully in our beds. Today’s active military is better trained, equipped, and ready to fight anywhere. Nothing against the reserves and National Guard. It’s not their fault that politicians at the state level suck off money earmarked for equipment and training and use it for other things. Historically, after each major conflict, politicians reduced the size of the standing military and came into the next large conflict struggling to get people up and trained. The second part of the military’s problem is not looking ahead. The military lives on its last victory and trains and equips that way until the next conflict forces immediate and controversial changes in its infrastructure and mindset. Bottom line, we will almost certainly NOT fight a “standard battlefield”. We need to focus our efforts and money on restructuring and equipping to fight like we’re fighting in Iraq. Major combat operations followed by security operations followed by rebuilding (civil) operations. The force needs to be structured for this type new type of warfare. That will require a larger force.

[luvtolean]

Seamus, my working assumption on the government as a whole is that it is spending too much money. That going into a fight with the deficits and debt we have are worse than going in without as many professional soldiers.

The military is part of that. Not the biggest part, but part. Our training, tactics, and the core professional group of soldiers we have now are certainly better than ever.

But at the end of the day, it seems to me what wins wars is the economy, not which weapons you go into the fight with. Though having modern weapons designed, seems critical.

WWI and WWII are great examples. By your definition we were unprepared. Our army was definately a mess. But we had modern weapons designed, and our economy was not in the dangerous position it is today. By some estimates 1/4 of the US debt is to the Chinese. Do you think it would've been a good thing if we'd been better prepared militarily, but 1/4 of our debt (and increasing) was held by the Japanese or Germans in 1938? I don't.

Our economy is crippled by a bloated government, healthcare costs, energy imports and inability of our companies to build almost anything in volume on US shores due to labor costs. We must get off of our middle east oil addiction, this is the main reason I want to see more government control in this area.

I think large future conflicts in this global economy will have much more to do with currency and economy manipulation. The battle will be an integrated battle by force and by finance. I think the Cold War was a good "first round" demonstration of this.

Let's face it, if we're getting our asses kicked, or if we're kicking the Chinese's asses, on either of our land, it's going nuke.

[luvtolean]

Originally Posted by seamus

Education: LTL, You described the education system in the Czech Republic. After elementary school, students are tested and placed in high schools according to test scores. The higher the score, the more aggressive the schooling.

Many countries are similar. I have a Malaysian engineer friend that had the exact same story. He smoked his tests and they sent him over for university. I know Germany, Japan and others have "the test".

To a lesser extent there is some of this in the US if you get lucky with your school district. There is the GATE program, and I was very fortunate to be in a school district that had a specific GATE elementary school if you tested in(actually it was the GATE kids, and the handicapped kids) that gave us much more aggressive elementary schooling. I was in German class in the fourth grade. (should've taken Spanish though)

Foreign Policy: America’s foreign policy ideals need to be fixed. We’re too quick to use force instead of diplomacy. Just like taking aspirin for a broken leg, we attack symptoms, declare victory, then wonder why we hurt just as bad shortly after. Countries hate us because we're arrogant, not because of our military. America continues to function as if we’re every other country’s big brother. We flaunt out size and might, give others noogies and punch them in the gut when we don’t agree.

YES! We use the military instead of the State department nowadays. Bush has a TERRIBLE record in this respect. I also think it's a temptation for politicians inherent in such an incredibly capable armed force as you guys are. They seem to think LASER guided bombs mean we can wage this kind of surgical war. It's bullshit. (Surgical war an old temptation, Clausewitz talks about it in On War even)

This is the oldest problem with a large capable military in the book, regardless of political system. The Romans had this problem, being too quick to the sword. Alexander did too.

Congressional Reform:

There are a lot of issues I have here but one of the biggest is the use of riders on bills. The defense bill should be the defense bill. Not the defense bill with hundreds of unrelated items attached to it.

Hugely agree with you here.

It would also make it much easier to understand how to vote for our politicians. With all of the riders it's so easy to make a headline, "_____ voted against body armor for troops" when in reality that was a little piece tacked on to the end of a bad bill having nothing to do with military funding.

[BDA116]

Included with Congressional reform:
Get the Senate back to the way it was intended to work. They are to represent the State, and sent by State legislatures, not voted in by popluar vote of people. That is what the House is for.

[phobiaphobe]

Careful what you wish for BDA... our senate is appointed and it's the hugest waste of money and time imaginable. Basically it's a retirement home for the PMs drinking buddies where they rubber-stamp everything without reading it, that is, if they're actually not on vacation. Most of them are gone half the time. We're pushing hard for an elected senate, trying to give accountability to our parliament.