Use Google for Searching? The Government wants to know.

navydevildoc · 01-19-2006, 6:34 PM

The federal government is attempting to subpeona all google searches from a particular week in time, as well as "other closely held data". I should point out that GMail's user agreement states that they keep all of your e-mail, even if you delete it; and it becomes the property of Google after 30 days. This could very well be subpoenaed as well, since it is no longer YOUR e-mail, but Google's.

Google is resisting so far, mainly because they are not named as a party in this particular lawsuit. That seems to be a very weak defense that could be remedied quite easily, but I am not a law expert.

Over all, this seems VERY scary. How long until the FBI comes knocking on my door because I typed "jihad suicide bomber" into google? Or perhaps I was searching google images for various forms of "adult material"?

Article here: http://usersecurity.org/?q=node/10

sheepofblue · 01-19-2006, 6:55 PM

so my searches for Blue Sheep and Anthrax......

Chain · 01-19-2006, 6:56 PM

Was it Ben Franklin who said "He who would give up liberty for security deserves neither"?

I disagree, at least to the extent that Franklin couldn't possibly have fathomed the world we live in today. Hell, he was dead better than a century before the Wright Bros first flight, so he damn sure couldn't have envisioned giant, jet propelled aluminum tubes full of people raining down from the sky and killing untold thousands.

I think the end sometime does justify the means.

So personally, I'm not the least bit worried about this Google issue, federal wiretapping, or the various covert ops that no doubt goes on behind the scenes. They're not watching my house or tapping my phones and, well, if they are, I've got nothing to hide.

There is a parallel to my job here. Most people want the dirty work to get done - they just don't want to know how we do it.

Note: I'm not looking for a fight, just stating my opinion.

BDA116 · 01-19-2006, 7:04 PM

I guess first it has to be decided if the internet is both beholden to and protected by U.S. law. I don't think that has been fully hashed out yet.

The other thing is that anyone that truly thinks anything in cyberspace is private is very mistaken (I know you know this NDD, just pointing that out).

sheepofblue · 01-19-2006, 7:08 PM

Quote:

Originally Posted by Chain

Was it Ben Franklin who said "He who would give up liberty for security deserves neither"?

I disagree, at least to the extent that Franklin couldn't possibly have fathomed the world we live in today. Hell, he was dead better than a century before the Wright Bros first flight, so he damn sure couldn't have envisioned giant, jet propelled aluminum tubes full of people raining down from the sky and killing untold thousands.

I think the end sometime does justify the means.

So personally, I'm not the least bit worried about this Google issue, federal wiretapping, or the various covert ops that no doubt goes on behind the scenes. They're not watching my house or tapping my phones and, well, if they are, I've got nothing to hide.

There is a parallel to my job here. Most people want the dirty work to get done - they just don't want to know how we do it.

Note: I'm not looking for a fight, just stating my opinion.

I do not worry about you or your fellow officers. I do worry about the type of people that want to control everyone (they do exist) and I do realize some of the things that can be done with data collected. I have nothing to hide (most would consider me boring) but do not want someone poking into my private life.

A search should be justifiable or not done (national security is valid on communications crossing our borders or foriegn nationals)

BDA116 · 01-19-2006, 7:10 PM

Oh, and anyone that has signed up for one of those grocery store discount clubs - they know more about you than the government does or would find out from Google records.

phobiaphobe · 01-19-2006, 7:14 PM

That's why I refuse to get a Safeway card.

sheepofblue · 01-19-2006, 7:34 PM

Quote:

Originally Posted by phobiaphobe

That's why I refuse to get a Safeway card.

No don't do that. Get three or four, then it messes up the information they are stealing

phobiaphobe · 01-19-2006, 8:46 PM

Good idea.

jaim · 01-20-2006, 3:58 AM

Quote:

Originally Posted by Chain

Was it Ben Franklin who said "He who would give up liberty for security deserves neither"?

I disagree, at least to the extent that Franklin couldn't possibly have fathomed the world we live in today. Hell, he was dead better than a century before the Wright Bros first flight, so he damn sure couldn't have envisioned giant, jet propelled aluminum tubes full of people raining down from the sky and killing untold thousands.

I think the end sometime does justify the means.

So personally, I'm not the least bit worried about this Google issue, federal wiretapping, or the various covert ops that no doubt goes on behind the scenes. They're not watching my house or tapping my phones and, well, if they are, I've got nothing to hide.

There is a parallel to my job here. Most people want the dirty work to get done - they just don't want to know how we do it.

Note: I'm not looking for a fight, just stating my opinion.

Unfortunately this is an attitude all to prevelant in the U.S. today and especially with younger Americans. "I am not doing anything wrong, so why should I worry about it." This attitude a straight slap in the face to all those who have died actually creating and protecting the rights of American citizens. I implore everyone who thinks that things like this are not a big deal to read or reread the whole constitution. Realize the reasons behind the bill of rights. Understand why our government was set up the way it is.

This Google situation is just a sympton of a much much bigger problem. And if some of you don't see that then I truly hope you are a vast minority. Otherwise we as a country are going to end up no better than the countries we are trying to bring democracy to.

QuikMike · 01-20-2006, 10:14 AM

Quote:

Originally Posted by jaim

Unfortunately this is an attitude all to prevelant in the U.S. today and especially with younger Americans. "I am not doing anything wrong, so why should I worry about it." This attitude a straight slap in the face to all those who have died actually creating and protecting the rights of American citizens. I implore everyone who thinks that things like this are not a big deal to read or reread the whole constitution. Realize the reasons behind the bill of rights. Understand why our government was set up the way it is.

This Google situation is just a sympton of a much much bigger problem. And if some of you don't see that then I truly hope you are a vast minority. Otherwise we as a country are going to end up no better than the countries we are trying to bring democracy to.

I tend to agree with your general line of thinking here, jaim....to me, I summarize this as sort of a "slippery slope" situation....where does it stop? when does it end? I have nothing to hide, but at the same time, I don't want the feds or the government prying into my emails, searches, etc.....just my .02.....

*Mo Noyz* · 01-20-2006, 11:46 AM

Quote:

Originally Posted by jaim

Unfortunately this is an attitude all to prevelant in the U.S. today and especially with younger Americans. "I am not doing anything wrong, so why should I worry about it." This attitude a straight slap in the face to all those who have died actually creating and protecting the rights of American citizens. I implore everyone who thinks that things like this are not a big deal to read or reread the whole constitution. Realize the reasons behind the bill of rights. Understand why our government was set up the way it is.

This Google situation is just a sympton of a much much bigger problem. And if some of you don't see that then I truly hope you are a vast minority. Otherwise we as a country are going to end up no better than the countries we are trying to bring democracy to.

It's definitely a very dark day when I have to agree with jaim.

With exceptions, of course.

What Chain has stated above is also valid. The people who wrote the Constitution could not have imagined in their wildest dreams what the world has become.

That said, I do also believe that this is one of those proverbial "slippery slope" situations. On one hand, I can see why the government would need to loosen some of their own restrictions in order to guard against possible terrorist activity. But, we must also be careful about how much we allow them to loosen such restrictions.

I think what is needed now more than any other time in this countrys history is for all of us to pay very close attention to what goes on on Capitol Hill. I try to soak in as much C-SPAN and C-SPAN2 as I can. I would highly suggest each of you do the same.

BDA116 · 01-20-2006, 12:21 PM

It all goes back to what I previously stated, though. Is information on the world wide internet subject to United States law? If it must be protected by our laws it also must be beholden to them. Where does that line get drawn? If the servers physically exist in the U.S.? If the company is based here? Where?
If this Google thing is going to claim protection of the Bill of Rights, it also must accept full responsibility of adhering to them - as well as all other Amendments and laws.

*Mo Noyz* · 01-20-2006, 12:23 PM

All excellent points, BDA.

I simply don't know any of the answers.

BDA116 · 01-20-2006, 12:28 PM

Nor do I, but that seems to be just as slippery a slope to me.

sheepofblue · 01-20-2006, 12:38 PM

Quote:

Originally Posted by Mo Noyz

It's definitely a very dark day when I have to agree with jaim.

With exceptions, of course.

What Chain has stated above is also valid. The people who wrote the Constitution could not have imagined in their wildest dreams what the world has become.

That said, I do also believe that this is one of those proverbial "slippery slope" situations. On one hand, I can see why the government would need to loosen some of their own restrictions in order to guard against possible terrorist activity. But, we must also be careful about how much we allow them to loosen such restrictions.

I think what is needed now more than any other time in this countrys history is for all of us to pay very close attention to what goes on on Capitol Hill. I try to soak in as much C-SPAN and C-SPAN2 as I can. I would highly suggest each of you do the same.

no they could imagine far worse. Everyone always thinks today is the worst of times and yet they are not.

*Mo Noyz* · 01-20-2006, 12:45 PM

Calm down, Sheeply.

What I mean, and I believe what Chain meant, is that they simply wouldn't recognize the world today.

People weren't flying planes into buildings back then, there was no such thing as suicide bombers, no internet, etc.......

I didn't say anything about these being the worst of times. Nor do I even care to ponder the subject.

navydevildoc · 01-20-2006, 1:11 PM

Quote:

Originally Posted by Mo Noyz

Calm down, Sheeply.

What I mean, and I believe what Chain meant, is that they simply wouldn't recognize the world today.

People weren't flying planes into buildings back then, there was no such thing as suicide bombers, no internet, etc.......

I didn't say anything about these being the worst of times. Nor do I even care to ponder the subject.

But in the end, the basic tenets of right to privacy, due process, and protection from illegal search and seizure are just as relevant today as they were in the 1800s... regardless of what "the world has become".

navydevildoc · 01-20-2006, 1:18 PM

Also, in response to all the people that always say "But I have nothing to hide". Consider this:

1) You have NEVER sped in your car or on your bike on the street?

2) How about those pesky double-yellow lines on that awesome canyon road ? (no matter how stupid it is, you know people do it)

3) Hmmm... those new exhaust cans sure look nice, but I bet they say "For Racing Use Only" on them somewhere.

This is just 3 examples of how people on the .org routinely break the law on a daily basis. I know this is taking it to the extreme, but I hope people are getting the point. How far does the government have to go in monitoring the populace before it's "too far"? Since they are doing it bit by bit, no one is really noticing.

Baketech · 01-20-2006, 1:33 PM

This THREAD is a bit interesting to go back and read now...

luvtolean · 01-20-2006, 3:24 PM

Quote:

Originally Posted by Chain

Was it Ben Franklin who said "He who would give up liberty for security deserves neither"?

I disagree, at least to the extent that Franklin couldn't possibly have fathomed the world we live in today. Hell, he was dead better than a century before the Wright Bros first flight, so he damn sure couldn't have envisioned giant, jet propelled aluminum tubes full of people raining down from the sky and killing untold thousands.

I think the end sometime does justify the means.

So personally, I'm not the least bit worried about this Google issue, federal wiretapping, or the various covert ops that no doubt goes on behind the scenes. They're not watching my house or tapping my phones and, well, if they are, I've got nothing to hide.

There is a parallel to my job here. Most people want the dirty work to get done - they just don't want to know how we do it.

Note: I'm not looking for a fight, just stating my opinion.

You damn sure deserve a fight.

What's incredible to me is that Americans seem to think terrorism is new, or even more hilarious, that a nanny state will stop it. Our incredibly myopic world view is sometimes our strength, and at the same time, often our weakness. I'm also amazed at the cowardice/fear of the average person.

You don't think the deliberate targeting of American civilians in the Revolutionary War by the British was terrorism? Think again.

The CIA, with all it's billion$, all it's smart people and fancy toys, all of it's unconstitutional laws and powers without government oversight, couldn't even figure out that the USSR was going to collapse.

So what in the hell makes people think that the government watching everything they do makes them safer? The only people it makes safer are the positions of office.

It's bullshit.

*Mo Noyz* · 01-20-2006, 7:27 PM

Somebody needs a hug.

luvtolean · 01-20-2006, 7:34 PM

I don't want it.

This **** has me spitting mad.

My fellow countrymen couldn't care any less about their rights to privacy.

Which means I will continue to lose mine.

So when the government does succeed in getting Google data (if not this time, when they start putting pressure on a case against Google watch out) what do I have to fear?

Well let's see. I search about .50BMG rifles. (hobby) I search about airplanes. (hobby) I search about terror history and current stuff. (hobby) I search about exotic material properties and various other mechanical engineering things. (profession and hobby) I buy books that some would consider provacative.

What if these search paramaters are combined and suddenly I'm flagged? After all, this is the very data a terrorist would be reading if studying how to shoot down an airplane right?

My GF jokes that I hit the FBI computer flags every day when she comes in and I'm on 1911forum or something like that. I think it's only half a joke.

The last thing in the world I want, is to be on some damned watch list.

*Mo Noyz* · 01-20-2006, 7:47 PM

Yes, but a wholesale trashing of any and all measures to help protect the country shows very little thought was put into it.

It's the same as them trying to pass the same PA that they passed years ago.

I think the only thing proven here is that nobody on either side has put much thought into their arguments. And that's a shame.

luvtolean · 01-20-2006, 8:16 PM

You're right, Bush doesn't need to.

He just beats on the fear drum, the lemmings fall in line, and he takes away more freedoms.

ConqSoft · 01-20-2006, 8:17 PM

http://money.cnn.com/2006/01/20/tech...ex.htm?cnn=yes

luvtolean · 01-20-2006, 8:18 PM

Quote:

Originally Posted by ConqSoft

http://money.cnn.com/2006/01/20/tech...ex.htm?cnn=yes

Though I'd like to think this is the market sending the message that privacy matters...my company was down >8% too (from the peak yesterday, not the close). The whole market tanked. Newspeople are just out looking for copy.

*Mo Noyz* · 01-20-2006, 8:22 PM

Quote:

Originally Posted by luvtolean

You're right, Bush doesn't need to.

He just beats on the fear drum, the lemmings fall in line, and he takes away more freedoms.

Wrong.

Both sides need to think about it. And very closely.

Bush and his crew are making a lot of mistakes. And moderate Republicans on Capitol Hill are slowly starting to break away from the pack.

Don't forget, it was both Republicans and Democrats who sank the latest attempt at passing the PA.

And I think it's a good sign. People on both sides are starting to settle down and not immediate take a reactionary stance. And that is something that is very good for this country.

*Mo Noyz* · 01-20-2006, 8:23 PM

Quote:

Originally Posted by luvtolean

Though I'd like to think this is the market sending the message that privacy matters...my company was down >8% too (from the peak yesterday, not the close). The whole market tanked. Newspeople are just out looking for copy.

And much of that is still due to the current Iran situation as well.

luvtolean · 01-20-2006, 8:27 PM

Quote:

Originally Posted by Mo Noyz

Wrong.

Both sides need to think about it. And very closely.

Bush and his crew are making a lot of mistakes. And moderate Republicans on Capitol Hill are slowly starting to break away from the pack.

Don't forget, it was both Republicans and Democrats who sank the latest attempt at passing the PA.

And I think it's a good sign. People on both sides are starting to settle down and not immediate take a reactionary stance. And that is something that is very good for this country.

I agree with you it's important. But the current administration has learned, like so many others, that fear-mongering is a very effective method of getting the population to submit to more unnecessary government control. Normally this is done with scarcely any debate.

Unfortunately once you have tens of thousands of gov't workers in the government union for the rashly created new organizations (like the CIA in the 40's, Homeland Security now) they never ever go away even after people realize how bad an idea it was.