[Chain]

Anyone see today's show on "What you should be worried about"?

http://www2.oprah.com/tows/pastshows/200601/tows_past_20060123.jhtml

Some pretty good discussion on terrorism, but something Oprah said really pissed me off. In speaking to the issue of causation (of terrorism), she said that the United States has, for too long, been worried about itself and not other nations...





I am so sick and tired of the same old saw out of these people. Instead of laying blame squarely at the feet of those to whom it belongs -the soulless, cowardly Middle-Eastern dogs that would kill innocent women and children- they blame the United States and our foreign policy.

Never mind that according to the Organization of Economic Cooperation and Development, the US gave $16.25 billion in 2003 - almost double the aid by the next biggest net spender, Japan ($8.8 billion). The magnitude of U.S. financial benevolence grows even more impressive if you lump in all the debt forgiveness the federal government engages in ($4 billion in Iraqi debt in the year 2004 alone).

Is America perfect? Far from it. Can we be better international neighbors? Probably so. But we've done (and continue to do) alot of good in this world and I'm damn sick and tired of listening to the talking heads continually bemoan the United States as the global goliath who got what he asked for.

[phobiaphobe]

Isn't Oprah a multi-billionaire? She could probably fund a pretty strong anti-terrorist effort.

[luvtolean]

Well, I hear what you are saying, but what say you to the fact Osama Bin Laden is an American trained terrorist?

[phobiaphobe]

Waitaminnit... WTF are you doing watching Oprah?

[Chain]

Originally Posted by phobiaphobe

Isn't Oprah a multi-billionaire? She could probably fund a pretty strong anti-terrorist effort.

[Chain]

Originally Posted by luvtolean

Well, I hear what you are saying, but what say you to the fact Osama Bin Laden is an American trained terrorist?

I'm not sure what this has got to do with the price of tea in China, but Timothy McVeigh was an American terrorist too (he was a decorated Army veteran of the first Gulf War). That doesn't give either one of these whack-jobs the right to kill, nor does it mean the U.S. is in any way culpable for what these murderers did in pursuit of their lunatic fringe dreams.

[luvtolean]

Of course it does not give them the moral right to do what they are doing.

But Osama Bin Laden is a terrorist, who received terrorist training from the CIA to fight in Afghanistan as a "Freedom Fighter" (ironic term now isn't it?) against the Russians. This is a direct function of US policy. We are in the biz of training terrorists! And at least one of our trainees was paying attention.

Personally, I cannot deny the fact that we must share in the blame for this. Although I'm sure I come to this conclusion from a far different path than Oprah or your average passivist.

[Mo Noyz]

Chain, brother, I worry about you a lot these days.

Honestly.

[Mo Noyz]

Originally Posted by luvtolean

But Osama Bin Laden is a terrorist, who received terrorist training from the CIA to fight in Afghanistan as a "Freedom Fighter" (ironic term now isn't it?) against the Russians. This is a direct function of US policy.

Personally, I cannot deny the fact that we must share in the blame for this.

Good old fashion liberal guilt. Gotta love it.

Help me out here, Mr. Lean. We train him to fight off the Russians in Afghanistan. He trains folks how to fly planes into our skyscrapers.

I'm missing the part where it is partially our fault. Why, because we trained him how to fight?

That's some rather bizarre logic, IMO.

[ND4SPD]

Originally Posted by Mo Noyz

That's some rather bizarre logic, IMO.

Sorry Mo, but I gotta go with LTL on this one...I'm sure the guy learned quite a bit more than we think he did. If nothing more, he probably picked up on the lack of national security we had/have.

[phobiaphobe]

Regardless of where he got the training, what is his motive to attack? Isn't that a more important question?

[phobiaphobe]

You know, Darth Vader was trained by Obi-Wan.

[luvtolean]

GUILT? Are you kidding me?

I'd love to torture, maim and kill Osama as much as the next guy. But I respect the fact we trained him, and thus we are part of the problem.

You have to go to the root of the problem if you want to address terrorism. The simple fact is that for terrorists to be co-ordinated and effective, they must go through militaristic training and be backed by a government. Why did we go into Afghanistan? From one of Bush's speeches in Sept 01:

Putting further pressure on the Taleban, Mr Bush also said the United States must be given "full access to terrorist training camps, so we can make sure they are no longer operating".

So, obviously training camps are very important to terrorists.

The training camp Osama went to, was US run/backed. We gave the Freedom Fighters all sorts of hardware to run around making nuisances of themselves. This is what we did with Osama, and plenty of other notorious terrorists.

This is not an excuse nor a manifestation of guilt. But a recognition of the fact as long as the CIA is out making terrorists, and trying to use terror to fight terror, nothing will be fixed.

You never know when a rabid animal will turn around and bite the hand that feeds...

[Mo Noyz]

Originally Posted by phobiaphobe

You know, Darth Vader was trained by Obi-Wan.

Right.

But Obi-Wan was partly to blame for his own death...

[luvtolean]

To follow with your example, did Obi-Wan train Darth Vader to be a terrorist or a soldier?

[Mo Noyz]

Originally Posted by ND4SPD

Sorry Mo, but I gotta go with LTL on this one...I'm sure the guy learned quite a bit more than we think he did. If nothing more, he probably picked up on the lack of national security we had/have.

It doesn't matter.

It still does not equate to him attacking the U.S. as being partially our fault.

[luvtolean]

If we hadn't have trained him as a terrorist, he may very well never have pulled that off.

At least by the US Government's logic for going into Afghanistan and Iraq (when Bush mentions it's a terrorist training camp).

We made Osama a capable terrorist. End of story.

[Baketech]

Originally Posted by luvtolean

The training camp Osama went to, was US run/backed. We gave the Freedom Fighters all sorts of hardware to run around making nuisances of themselves. This is what we did with Osama, and plenty of other notorious terrorists.

This is not an excuse nor a manifestation of guilt. But a recognition of the fact as long as the CIA is out making terrorists, and trying to use terror to fight terror, nothing will be fixed.

That didn't happen in a vacuum...are you saying that we should have let the communists win there...

[ND4SPD]

Originally Posted by phobiaphobe

Regardless of where he got the training, what is his motive to attack? Isn't that a more important question?

It goes back to Biblical times. Most of the Arab world hates Israel and the Jews. The US is a supporter of Israel, therefore they hate us as well.

[Mo Noyz]

Originally Posted by luvtolean

To follow with your example, did Obi-Wan train Darth Vader to be a terrorist or a soldier?

He trained him to be a Jedi, actually.


So, what you're saying is that a soldier and a terrorist are the same thing because they received the same kind of training?

[Chain]

Originally Posted by Mo Noyz

Chain, brother, I worry about you a lot these days.

Honestly.

[ND4SPD]

Originally Posted by Mo Noyz

It doesn't matter.

It still does not equate to him attacking the U.S. as being partially our fault.

No, but we should've at least been smart enough to keep tabs on the guy "just in case". Now we're trying to find him and he's disappeared.

[phobiaphobe]

Originally Posted by Mo Noyz

Right.

But Obi-Wan was partly to blame for his own death...

Who is Osama's "Emperor"?