[Getsome]

Originally Posted by analogbear

I begrudge no person his or her opinion.
I will not respect it (which is different from tolerating it...I do that as an American, gratis), unless it is founded upon facts and reason for real events, not just impotent emotional outrage. Oh, and I don't care what kind of soda you like...

However, I feel it necessary to relay some of my opinions which I hope will not be merely yelled at, but really internalized by the anti-islamic/terrorist-fundamentalists that seem to have part of the rhetoric down, but really say nothing new. I say nothing new either, but at least am humble enough to admit it.

The islamic terrorists are doing bad ****. I know it, you know it, and they know it. They feel justified though, because western (non-islamic) economic power-blocks are threatening their religious status as islamic states, and having an influence on the political social, and economic independence of those nations and regions.

This is not unlike most peoples' reactions to other undesireable outside influences. We, as a species, tend to fight back when we perceive an attack.

What has changed for us in the modern world is that we, the USA, are being more directly attacked than we have been used to, and we are scrambling to find an outlet for that rage and frustration.

But, it seems that the message of the terrorists isn't invalid (if you really try to understand it), only the medium of that message is offensive: terrorism. But, we are trying to stop the medium of the message by invalidating the message itself as violent (which it isn't) ignorant, prosaic, quaint, or primitive.

Osama would not have declared war against us if we had not pulled our CIA and SF guys out of Afghanistan after we helped the Mujahadeen push the Russians back over the border. We broke a promise to help rebuild, and the Taliban came through. Osama, as a radical Muslim and teacher, was ripe for the fundamentalist message, and made it his own.

The foundation of his current conditions' precedent for cessation of hostilities seem reasonable: stop helping Israel (an illegally established nation-I will elaborate if necessary), pull our business interests out of Saudi Arabia, stop preventing membership on the Security Council of Islamic nations, and several other smaller conditions. Of course, he has the heretical rhetoric down too, so there are some nasty things said, but (opinion here) they are not deal-breakers, I think.

Now, although he may have legitimate gripes, terrorism is not the way to go about it, because beating someone up is NOT the way to change his or her mind...

However, that lesson should go to the heart of the matter for the "Super-Patriot-Americans" (most of whom that I have met never even served in the military, interestingly enough...) who want to kill and bomb, care not for burned and maimed schoolkids, and support a war they will never see (and have never seen a war to understand its true horror), all in the name of beating up people in the islamic-world, in an effort to change their minds'...We have already established that beating them up will not change their minds'.

Oh, and to the dude who first posted the I don't care...Merely posting it, with so much detail, screams that you in fact do care, and are posturing because you are experiencing cognitive dissonance (holding two opposite or mutually exclusive concepts about the same thing in mind at the same time) and are, therefore, human. Good for you.

I would not kill Zach because I no longer believe in killing, except in immediate self-defense.

I hate the terrorist-program, but would seek to solve the real problem ala Ronald Reagan, by both investing in the areas affected, and encouraging real democracy in the real power blocks in the regions: the economic power blocks...Hire locals and let them vote about how to run the companies.

Instead of continued reliance on imported fossil fuels (faking out the american public with the hybrid red herring), switch, ala Brazil, to corn ethanol...more engine power, fewer greenhouse gasses, more money for our heartland and farmers...Win win win win.

We do all have our opinions and mine is still the same. Kill every last one of them, then there will be no future problem from them. And in case the dog tag symbol under my name doesn't give it away for you, I DID spend over 9 years of my life in my beloved Marine Corps.

[Proto]

Getsome, did you ever live next door to Kevin Spacey?

[analogbear]

Originally Posted by Getsome

We do all have our opinions and mine is still the same. Kill every last one of them, then there will be no future problem from them. And in case the dog tag symbol under my name doesn't give it away for you, I DID spend over 9 years of my life in my beloved Marine Corps.

Semper Fi!
You are one of the few...I usually hear pussies-er, I mean those who preferred not to serve in the military running their mouths' (in the role as evangelical patriots...), with no frame of reference or war experience...

Kill every last one of ???

Terrorists?
Imams?
Muslims?
People from that region?

Should people be killed because they were misinformed?

You will never kill them all, and just trying to kill them without trying to change their minds sounds a lot like Sissyphus pushing that rock up the hill...
I have no problem treating terrorists as criminals, but to ignore the factors that are inspiring the terrorism seems stupid, in epic proportions. You have heard the saying: give a man a fish, feed him for today; teach a man to fish you feed him forever? Well, kill a terrorist today you stop that one guy...Fix the reason people become terrorists (and it is not islam) and you end much terrorism forever.

Oh yeah, I too spent time in the military...8-years as an Airborne Ranger...Rangers Lead the Way!

[clutchslip]

Originally Posted by analogbear

.....
They [islamic terrorists] feel justified though, because western (non-islamic) economic power-blocks are threatening their religious status as islamic states, and having an influence on the political social, and economic independence of those nations and regions......

But, it seems that the message of the terrorists isn't invalid (if you really try to understand it), only the medium of that message is offensive: terrorism.......

Instead of continued reliance on imported fossil fuels .....switch, ala Brazil, to corn ethanol...

You remind me of the academia lady that after 9/11 suggested we ask Osama Bin Ladin why he was upset and what we could do for him.
I will assume you are just another deranged American.

A. These islamic countries would have NOTHING without the western countries finding, extracting and using their oil. The Bin Ladin family made their money by building for the oil rich.
These countries rely on western companies for most drilling and shipping operations.

B. Governments and religions need enemies when they can't take care of their own. Thus - we are the biggest target for these failed institutions around the world.

C. If we stop using their fuel, as you suggest, won't they be even poorer with fewer options and thus resent us even more?

Why do a huge number of Americans apologize for atrocities committed by others - especially against the United States? It is truly insane.

This is the insane rationale that comes from many outside the United States:
I, (the United States), give your country (you) money for your goods. I use your goods to make goods your country (you) can't or won't make. I consume those goods. And meanwhile your country (you) slander and physically attack me, (the United States), because I have too many goods!

I am not sorry for PAYING you money for your goods. I am not sorry for doing something better with those goods and using them.
I am sorry that you are so hopelessly lost in ignorance and bias that you can't fix your own problems.
But, if you don't stop hating us and attacking us for NO reason, I won't be sorry when we retaliate and blow you all to hell.

[analogbear]

Originally Posted by clutchslip

I will assume you are just another deranged American.

And therin lies your problem, sir...You assume.

I am not deranged.
You say these countries "rely" on the western companies...However, after WWI, when the Brits and the US drew the national boundaries in the areas of the former Ottoman/Turkish Empire called Arabia, it then established western corporations to exploit the oil reserves, at the pleasure of some of Prince Faisal's family, the family Saud. Ok, that takes care of Saudi Arabia.

We, the Brits and USA FORCED the arabs into a subservient position re: the western companies...So do not make the ignorant mistake you seem to, that they are "dependant" on our "goodwill"...They have endured 85 or so years of second class world citizenship, and you want them to thank us? Have you ever seen Animal House? Thank you sir, may I have another! You want the Arabs to be a collective group of existential heroes, suffering for the good of mankind. Get over yourself.

I don't think Osama deserves an apology; but, to ignore the role our foreign policy has played in all of this over the last 50 or so years is to redifine epic stupidity and hubris.

Why is it everyone wants to kill kill kill innocent people? Clutchslip, have you ever killed anyone? Ever been to war? You realize that the role of our military is first to DETER war? To avoid it? Statistically speaking, the safest place for a person to be during a time of war IN their own country is in their military!

More civilians have died in Afghanistan, Iraq, Bosnia, and Africa in the last 75 years than Military service-persons. Shouldn't we, a supposedly advanced, intellectual, and peace-loving nation attempt to find a non-death-producing solution to these problems?

Your comment about needing an enemy is accurate, just backwards! We, the USA, or at least our political leadership/establishment over the last 25 years, has needed an enemy to galvanize the population and polarize the constituents into party dogmatism...Welcome to the machine, you fell right into their trap!

Try some independent thinking.

[Custom900]

Amazingly I still don't care.

I'm from a military family with a long military background. Actually to just say Military isn't enough. My entire family excluding the ladies served in the US Marines. Sadly I chose to take another path. I wish I had taken a few years of my life and had given it to my Country in Military service.

That being said, I have a brother that is recently home from Afghanistan. I have a Cousin in the Army (outcast ) serving his 4th tour with the 101st in Iraq as this is being typed. I have more as well as friends serving, some of which are home due to medical leave after being blown up.

I didn't have any personal relationships with a single person that died on 9-11. However, each of them held the title of American.

I don't care what the polical reasons were behind the attacks that day. It still angers me and I say, "Kill em all".

As for Iraq, they need to realize that their world has changed. If they want to know life in the future they need to comply in a peaceful manner.

If Iran and N.Korea want to be a threat to my Country by housing Nuclear Arms I say remove those arms by force and stop any more 9-11's before they happen.

Do you like my point of view and opinion?

Tough, I DON'T CARE.

[analogbear]

Originally Posted by Custom900

Amazingly I still don't care.

I'm from a military family with a long military background. Actually to just say Military isn't enough. My entire family excluding the ladies served in the US Marines. Sadly I chose to take another path. I wish I had taken a few years of my life and had given it to my Country in Military service.

That being said, I have a brother that is recently home from Afghanistan. I have a Cousin in the Army (outcast ) serving his 4th tour with the 101st in Iraq as this is being typed. I have more as well as friends serving, some of which are home due to medical leave after being blown up.

I didn't have any personal relationships with a single person that died on 9-11. However, each of them held the title of American.

I don't care what the polical reasons were behind the attacks that day. It still angers me and I say, "Kill em all".

As for Iraq, they need to realize that their world has changed. If they want to know life in the future they need to comply in a peaceful manner.

If Iran and N.Korea want to be a threat to my Country by housing Nuclear Arms I say remove those arms by force and stop any more 9-11's before they happen.

Do you like my point of view and opinion?

Tough, I DON'T CARE.

aside for not defining who it is that you would kill, I agree. I refuse to accept that killing is the way, and you even argue that some of these people need to learn that the world has changed...This means changing minds...Something we can't do by killing people...I still find it amazing that people just don't get that simple corollary...

[Scout]

Originally Posted by clutchslip

You remind me of the academia lady that after 9/11 suggested we ask Osama Bin Ladin why he was upset and what we could do for him.

I would have done exactly that,




and while he was listing his demands, I WOULD BLOW HIS ****ING BRAINS OUT!







Yeah, I'm from Bakersfield, California, USA, and I DON'T GIVE A ****.

[analogbear]

Originally Posted by Scout

I would have done exactly that,
and while he was listing his demands, I WOULD BLOW HIS ****ING BRAINS OUT! I DON'T GIVE A ****.

Interesting, I would have thought you would give a ****...Seeing as how killing Osama publicly would have inspired literally thousands of new terrorists, validated their opinion of us as killers, and been responsible for many more American lives' lost. Give a **** about that?

Killing to change hearts and minds doesn't work. If all you want is vengence, just admit that, then remove yourself both from reasoned debate (because you are not participating), and from the search for solutions that go beyond your own cathartic act.

The propensity of individuals in this thread to want to kill is laced with eroticism. I suppose those folks are going to get off on the killing...That seems way sicker to me.

I am glad that soldiers with more restraint found Saddam (although his trial should have been at the Hague).

[Scout]

Yeah, I care, that's why I try to understand "suicide bombers" and reason that somehow, because I'm in America, I cause them to resort to blowing the crap out of innocent people.

I care that like falling dominoes, his plan to kill civilians, and then soldiers has cascaded into my brothers being sent over to Afghanistan to watch each other's backs, while he wanders back and forth between Afghanistan and Pakistan, plotting his next attack.

Yes, I truly would send Osama to his martyrdom, if given the chance. Would that polarize the Muslim fundamentalist against us? News flash, they already are against us.

Sadman is a different story altogether.

Analog, all I have to do is watch a clip of someone jumping from the twin towers because the skin is melting off their backs, and I can absolutely visualize blowing brains out of the person who planned the attacks.

I care about human life, and am sworn to protect it. But, I don't consider the individual in question "human". Monster is more accurate.

[Scout]

Oh, and WHAT THE HELL? Israel an illegally established nation? Oh, and I'm sure HAMAS is a legitimate government entity?

We shouldn't kill Osama? He has legitimate requests (even after 9/11)?




When the hell did the world get turned upside down?




edit:> And Analog, we both have the right to speak our minds, we both served for that. I don't have to agree with you to reserve the right. And we don't have to agree at all, but I'd still have your back, brother love, because we're Americans...

[Custom900]

I'm amazed to read Analog's posts seeing first that he is a New Yorker and second Military.

Do I search for vengeace? Yep.

At the same time I would like to see peace, but that isn't going to happen. Face it, Those that have claimed us as enemy do not reason things in the way we do. They will always be a threat to America. They have claimed America as an infidel nation, not only religiously, but as a whole. There are many, many documented statements that drive home a point that America should be destroyed.

Solution to the problem: Remove the threat at all costs.

I AM AN AMERICAN. I PLAY TO WIN. IF YOU DON'T WANT TO LOSE, DON'T START THE GAME.

An angry giant was shaken from its slumber the day the Towers fell in your home of NY, NY analog. Zacharias Moussaoui didn't and does not care that my fellow Americans died. He claims to have the will to participate again.
Hang him in the streets. I have no mercy when my Country is attacked. I have no mercy when you come into my house and attack my family. When they came into NY, your home town, it was the same to me as them coming into my house.

[Custom900]

http://www.foxnews.com/story/0,2933,191910,00.html
I guess we should just sit back while this takes place as well. Maybe I should have sympathy?

I don't think so.

[crvdoc]

WAIT WAIT...american boys....i didnt said that i am with damned muslims..dont forget our <turkishs>...but dont say to me that suddenly all the iraqish want to **** u AND THEY WANNA DIE ALL christians...i served to special forces and i know very good about muslims,but it was better if everybody see what happen in their country and no somewhere else...
peace and i pray for everybody...expect of crazy suisidebomber,but dont forget for them its a religion war,we must admire AND maybe i have poor command of english but at least i have always had country and history and i was in greece last 5000 years...and please american boys u cant understand that peace is the basic thing...

[Custom900]

CRV, I understand your last post to some degree. I too would like to see everything nice and peaceful without all the fighting and terror attacks.

However, I cannot and will not stand by and allow my Country to be threatened in any means.

[analogbear]

Although I do not believe in the death penalty, I understand it. If that is the sum total of our killing during this transaction, I could live with it, but it is not.

Of course, they are against us. I just want to look to the real mission: is the mission to merely kill the terrorists, or to alter the conditions (even if we as a nation must hear some ugly truths about our foreign business interests and political policy) that continue to cause terrorism? If it is merely to kill, why are we taking so long to do it? We are failing with BOTH missions, I think.

Again, with Osama, I am opposed to the D.P. (although, if two BIG dudes wanna DP him, that is ok...

Some of the self-governance requests by islamic nations and even the fundamentalists are reasonable. You commit the ad hominem circumstantial fallacy by attacking the person (Osama/terrorists) rather than looking to their argument and attacking that.

I refer to Israel as illegal because in the UN session to establish the state, the biblical/mythological tale of Sara, and the renting of the burrial plot, was used as "evidence" for justification of the establishment of a Jewish state, and the displacement of semi-nomadic muslims who had settled there. This was done why, because one tribe of the childeren of Abraham lived in that area 1850 years ago? The same rationale would have all of us non-native American (American Indian) Americans, be us white, black, asian, etc forcibly removed from the US, the whole country turned over to the very few remaining indian tribes, and second class status with no political or economic power over our own destiny if we were allowed to remain. Wouldn't you consider that illegal, or at least immoral?

Re: clips from 9/11, I went down to help, before the towers fell. I watched, with my own eyes through smoke and fear, people jumping. It takes a lot more courage to try to solve the poor conditions that produce people willing to crash planes into buildings than it does to just say kill 'em all.

I served in Somalia and in Bosnia, and the thing that stayed with me most was how the people there didn't want our interference. They wanted SOME help, with some things, but were afraid that American involvement would ultimately be bad for them. This, from groups of people we were trying to help.

I agree about being attacked, but should it be public policy that if a guy breaks into your house, you get to kill him in self defense that night? Sure, I buy that, and would do it...Though perhaps not on the first shot...Let him hurt a bit.
What about the next day, though...Should you be allowed to hunt him down and plan a murder? What about weeks or months after...Why not punish him, for an appropriate time for a given crime, up to natural life, lots of solitary, no suicide, no cable TV, and try to alter the social/political fabric that allowed routine acceptance in whole subgroups of our society of criminal behavior?

Whether you listen to Freud or Durkheim, it must be accepted that there will be crime...But, if our nation has the social structure right, why do we have 10 times as many prisoners, per capita, of EVERY other nation on the planet?

We don't have it right, and using the same paradigm internationally is just stupid..

Back to islam, my last comment is mere killing will not solve the problem, it will only KEEP them hating us. This does not mean we have to kiss their ass, or even give them all or anything they want. Just a realization that anyone who blows themselves up or crashes planes (aside from some element of psychopathology) has a real gripe with the establishment. It seems that they are not going away, killing them isn't working, so let's be smart and try something else?

[analogbear]

sorry for the above disjointed post...I was using 1 hand (feeding my baby, get your mind out of the gutter) and that put one side of my brain in power, so, sorry.

And I of course have all of your backs' as well.
Hooah.

[analogbear]

Originally Posted by Custom900

http://www.foxnews.com/story/0,2933,191910,00.html
I guess we should just sit back while this takes place as well. Maybe I should have sympathy?

I don't think so.

And here lies the only really good reason for invading Iraq: that Iran is gonna get the bomb, and we need to stop them. Enough Bush-****, why not just come clean with this a few years ago? He would have had the whole country, and most of the world with him.

[Mo Noyz]

i was in greece last 5000 years...

Holy ****!!! Are you the Highlander?!

Oh, and calling us "American boys" REALLY doesn't help your cause much.

[analogbear]

Originally Posted by Mo Noyz

Holy ****!!! Are you the Highlander?!

Oh, and calling us "American boys" REALLY doesn't help your cause much.

I am a bit afraid of how my kids might be "reared" now...

[abtech]

Originally Posted by Mo Noyz

Holy ****!!! Are you the Highlander?!

Oh, and calling us "American boys" REALLY doesn't help your cause much.

I believe he means that Greece as a nation has been around for 5000 years, although the Highlander comment had me on the floor . . .

I seriously think this gentleman probably speaks better english than he types (well, you know with hand gestures and all . . .).

[analogbear]

Of course. And to quote Bruce Willis, I only speak 2 languages...English and Bad English...

Kudos to crv for expressing himself so well in a foreign tongue.