[ccwilli3]

redhotz, I can tell you've never been in a management position and are young... This is fine because we have all been there and it's something everyone has in common. I've been there and I used to think the same thing...

But I have to stress to you, good help is EXTREMELY hard to find. You won't believe how difficult it is to find someone worth a damn to do ANYTHING. Even in the tech world, finding an engineer who actually wants to work is incredibly difficult.

So for you to say that if someone is not worth a damn, 'just fire them', you don't really see all that is involved... For one thing, we aren't as bad as the french, but it's damn near impossible to fire someone in corporate america without a SERIOUS paper trail. So you can't just up and fire someone, no matter if they are the bottom of the barrel, there is no continuous stream of candidates. And if you can terminate them, they're certainly not easy to replace...

[gthotchkiss]

Originally Posted by redhotz28

And about the poor decisions... say, the pregnant teenager... I agree with you. If you can't do the time, don't do the crime.... BUT. how many of you were virgins at 18? How many had unprotected sex during a high school party? I would bet a lot more than would admit it. You just got lucky. I believe in giving people a second chance and forgiving them.

Many people do deserve a second chance, however raising the minimum wage is not the way to do it. When you raise the minimum wage you are rewarding many people who REALLY don't deserve it.

However, once you make so many poor decisions, its time to dig YOURSELF outta the hole.

Also... as already said, it is quite difficult to fire some people. the legalities can be mind boggling.

[tigerblade]

Someone find me a legitimate report that shows how much society benefitted the last time mininum wage was raised.

[redhotz28]

Originally Posted by ccwilli3

For one thing, we aren't as bad as the french...

You're right though. I've never been in a real magerial position, and am young. It just seems like I should be able to get an internship (been trying for 3 years) if good help is hard to find. Anyhow.... very true about digging yourself out of the hole you made. Even if others made the same mistake and got lucky. Very true.

[QuikMike]

Originally Posted by tigerblade

Someone find me a legitimate report that shows how much society benefitted the last time mininum wage was raised.

"legitimate report"?

what's that? is there such a thing? do they even exist?

[tigerblade]

Originally Posted by QuikMike

"legitimate report"?

what's that? is there such a thing? do they even exist?

Of course! Just go to the unbiased news source and.... oops, I guess you're right!

[Proto]

Originally Posted by tigerblade

Someone find me a legitimate report that shows how much society benefitted the last time mininum wage was raised.

Well you asked for it, so here it is. It should answer all you questions.

http://www.lowpay.gov.uk/lowpay/repo...6_Min_Wage.pdf

Have a look at section 2.25, (page 21)

[QuikMike]

this guy is an "expert" and makes some really good points....

Wage Wars (Matthew Brouillete, Commonwealth Foundation) | SmartMoney.com

[ccwilli3]

Originally Posted by QuikMike

this guy is an "expert" and makes some really good points....

Wage Wars (Matthew Brouillete, Commonwealth Foundation) | SmartMoney.com

Good link and read fartknocker.

[QuikMike]

WRAL.com - News - Easley Signs Minimum-Wage-Increase Bill

interesting...also, the wage rate is tied to the federal wage rate....workers in NC will get the higher of the two....hmmm.....

[BDA116]

Great decision there by the Gov.
Put future business expansion in the state at risk for that 1% as well as helping some of those 1%ers lose their job. WooHoo!!

[Purpdust]

Originally Posted by redhotz28

YOU don't want to have to pay more for products or services you receive. You are comfortable looking over everyone on your high chair. I know some people who are wonderful workers, bust their ass, but they're dumb as a post. No way they'd make it through college. I don't think we should punish them for something they can't help.

Yes.


edit
I too do not come from money; I have to work for it and also got some luck along the way meeting people. Your comments on what Engineers earn are not 100% correct. I am not an engineer, but work everyday with them. They are not as highly paid as your professors might tell you. Plus there is a flood of foreign engineer immigrating to Canada and the US that will gladly do your job just as well for less money.

[Purpdust]

Sorry

[analogbear]

Originally Posted by tuffy6969

I will - and here is the problem:

Minimum wage was designed for young adults and or teens who are getting through school. It was NOT designed to support entire families. I guess that's what welfare was designed for. I do NOT believe in raising the minimum wage for the following reasons:

1. It breeds comfort zones. If you give them a raise - they will most likely STAY at the minimum wage job and not try to better themselves by going to school or getting vocational training for a higher paying job.

2. It will drive the cost of every day items through the roof. Mr. Boss Man isn't going to close his mom & pop restaurant because the minimum wage increased.....he will just up the cost of his food. WAY UP....depending on how many employees he has at the minimum wage level.

3. I believe raised should be EARNED and not forced upon an employer or company because the BIG GOVERNMENT thinks it's a good idea. We are a democracy. We are a Capitalistic society -

Capitalsism is inherently exploitive.

Originally Posted by gthotchkiss

Just curious, is this a stance, or just a statement

According to Federal Poverty Guidelines
For 1 person in the 48 Contiguous States in 2006 is $9,800
For 2 people it is $13,200
For a family of three it is $16,600. Family of 4 is $20,000.

So working at $5.15 hour for 40 hours a week, 52 weeks a year = $10,712
Also working at $7.15 hour for 40 hours a week, 52 weeks a year = $15,080

If you have 2 people working @ $5.15 you will have more than the poverty level... If you have more than 2 children, and are working for minimum wage, you have made some piss poor decisions...

If we raise the min. wage to $7.15, we will be essentially giving a little over $4K a year to ALOT of people who don't deserve it!!

The beginning was just data, the end was just ad hominem attack. Sad.

Originally Posted by tigerblade

The whole idea of a minimum wage is ludicrous. You can arbitrarily set it wherever you like, but that only raises the costs of everything else, thus putting those same things out of reach of the exact same people.

You can never eliminate the lower or upper class, only the middle.

It was not set arbitrarily, and it only raises costs if the profiteers (the owners of production and the taxing-government) don't adjust their cut as well. Reduce some corporate taxes if we must, and let the business owner have a little less profit...I admit this is tough on small-businesses, but it should be a tough game, surviving in the regulated market.

Originally Posted by ccwilli3

what about the guy at mcdonalds that has worked there for a while and worked hard to get to $7.25... With the blink of an eye, some A-hole off the street can walk in and get $7.15... What has his hard work been for? That happened to me the last time they raised it. I was working at a BBQ restaurant in high school. Started at 4.25, got two raises over 18 months and got to $5.25... Clinton raised it to $5.15 and guys that hadn't pulled their weight for $hit could come in and make what I had been making with no experience and no effort... It sucked.

Or the guy that digs ditches for $9.50 an hour for the DOT... Now he can go to wal mart, get $7.15 an hour and sit in the A/C all day...

The minimum wage thing is just a diversion from many of the issues that this country faces. Someone is trying to get the poor man's vote in an off election year and it's pathetic.

I agree with the vote-garnering issue, see below. But, the DOT thing, c'mon...With overtime that guy is making $90 Grand a year...He can take care of himself. The BBQ raise tragedy is all too common, though. I sympathize, I really do. But, that is always the way new hires always go. Salary always goes up...Why shouldn't minimum wage? Think of the young lawyer/junior associate who gets hired at $125,000.00, works his behind off with 80-100hr work weeks (no joke or hyperbole) and no vacations for 2-full years to get a senior associates salary of $145,000.00, and then gets assigned as the mentor for one of the new class of incoming junior associates, a guy getting paid $142,000.00, the new starting salary for an incoming lawyer in his firm. Just because the numbers are big doesn't mean the issue isn't tough.

Originally Posted by BDA116

Somewhere around 2% of the workforce are minimum wage workers.

There shouldn't even be minimum wage laws, let the free market shake it out.

There is no free market. With no equal bargaining power between labor and management/owners of production, an undesireable employee can just be replaced by a desireable one, especially if the employee is "at will" (like 95% of all workers) and there is a constant influx of undocumented workers. The Libertarians suffer from the same fantasy that infects Marxists: that the real world is the way they WANT it to be, rather than accepting that the real world is organic, changeable, fairly predictable, true; but it is neither constant nor fair. Oh, and look at the raw data (not the official released report) from the 2000 census, and you will see a great deal more workers than 2% of the total workforce are at or below minimum wage)

Originally Posted by ccwilli3

So for you to say that if someone is not worth a damn, 'just fire them', you don't really see all that is involved... For one thing, we aren't as bad as the french, but it's damn near impossible to fire someone in corporate america without a SERIOUS paper trail. So you can't just up and fire someone, no matter if they are the bottom of the barrel, there is no continuous stream of candidates. And if you can terminate them, they're certainly not easy to replace...

See the above reply to Beedy-A: as most employees are "at will" they can be fired for any, or no reason at all, save some racial/gender/age discrimination...That is really hard to prove, though.

Originally Posted by gthotchkiss

Many people do deserve a second chance, however raising the minimum wage is not the way to do it. When you raise the minimum wage you are rewarding many people who REALLY don't deserve it.

However, once you make so many poor decisions, its time to dig YOURSELF outta the hole.

Also... as already said, it is quite difficult to fire some people. the legalities can be mind boggling.

The minimum wage is not welfare. Welfare is a second chance, the minimum wage prevents potential exploitation. Whether or not it is working is a different question; but, to be law abiding Americans, the fact that we have a M.W. requires us to follow the statute. The statute requires Congress to increase the M.W. from time to time to acknowledge cost of living increases...I find it interesting (and ironic?) that these adjustments always seem to occur around election time...But...Oh, and why is it ASSumed that being on minimum wage is the result of poor choices? That position presumes that the person knows about, has the education or credential for, or access to, some other employment...In our wealth-driven society, people don't willingly work for less than they should without a moral, idealistic, or psychologically-imperative reason (read: join the military as a professional, enter politics as a non-millionaire, or become a full-time parent).

[ConqSoft]

NC has already passed a minimum wage increase to $6.15 that goes into effect January 1st 2007.

[ND4SPD]

Originally Posted by ccwilli3

But I have to stress to you, good help is EXTREMELY hard to find. You won't believe how difficult it is to find someone worth a damn to do ANYTHING. Even in the tech world, finding an engineer who actually wants to work is incredibly difficult.

That's no joke.

[luvtolean]

Originally Posted by ccwilli3

So for you to say that if someone is not worth a damn, 'just fire them', you don't really see all that is involved... For one thing, we aren't as bad as the french, but it's damn near impossible to fire someone in corporate america without a SERIOUS paper trail. So you can't just up and fire someone, no matter if they are the bottom of the barrel, there is no continuous stream of candidates. And if you can terminate them, they're certainly not easy to replace...

I agree with analogue on his stance on this. In many corporations their policy is a long drawn out process to fire, but as long as the employees are "at will", and the VAST majority of engineers are, you can fire them at anytime.

Useless people are like a cancer in a company. As a manager, don't hesitate to fire them. And don't hesitate to richly reward the ass kickers; if you look at the companies that are regularly rated as among the best managed, you'll see this is how they operate. (Intel and GE being two that pop to mind) These are the real meritocracies, and they are few and far between.

The normal corporate world does just the opposite, and thus is a breeding ground for mediocre people that just end up running around "politicking" and stabbing all their co-workers in the back looking for a raise.

[luvtolean]

Oh, and yes, we need a min wage, and yes it should be raised.

I don't care if it's just college kids. Having worked my way through college (though not even close to min wage luckily/thankfully) during the time min wage was raised to the current level, I sympathize with the need to give these kids more money...

[gthotchkiss]

CNN.com - Minimum wage increase tied to tax cuts - Jul 28, 2006

[QuikMike]

TIME.com: Where to Get a Pay Raise -- Aug. 21, 2006 -- Page 1

berry, berry interesting....it's seems as if a lot of the big box stores whine and complain about being forced to pay $9.50 or so/hour, but when they do, they seem to thrive even more than ever....interesting article......

[analogbear]

Sorry to resurect this dead thing, but as this issue is timely again I did. I am just pissed that it is being raised over 26 months.

[steingar]

In on of his 30 days episodes Morgan Spurlock and his tony girlfriend came to my town to live on minimum wage. Two young adults, no kids, one of th